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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

CorkGunJonny

Anyone know what channel it's on? The jim sheridan documentary about sophie toscan du plantier

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Taeholic

monkeybutter wrote: »

i couldnt find anything on it anyway to say if that was the case

Thats all I could find. Apparently Daniel Toscan du Plantier told a journalist that Sophie was in the early stages of pregnancy

Deeec

fryup wrote: »

people here mention Sophie's neighbours alfie lyons and his partner but what about the other house? isn't there a second house up that laneway?

The Ungerer's i think their name is...we're they ever questioned?

I think Jim Sheridan refers to the other neighbours in the documentary - the name he used was Richardson I think. There has never being anything said about them so possibley it is a holiday home that wasnt occupied at the time.

Ri_Nollaig

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

On his twitter bio he has looking for a place to live!

Quick trip to France would solve that problem for him!

Being serious.
It does seem, while he did himself no favours with putting his name out there and does seem to really like the sound of his own voice, he had no motivate, atleast none that was ever established, to want to kill her. It was questionable if he ever even met her and while I know that doesn't mean he definitely didn't kill her, it greatly reduces the likelihood. Its incredibly rare for someone to just wake up some night and randomly go kill someone for no reason. If they were having an affair etc, they really managed to keep that a secret! If it was to create a story and be the big fish in a small journalist pond, he would have really jumped in the deep end there.

Overall, this is really just a story of the Garda's making a mess of it. They thought they had their man and just ignored any other suspect. They probably realised they messed up the early evidence gathering and just wanted to close the case no matter what, coupled with the attention this was getting from the French police.

Question, why are the French allowed, try and convict a person for a crime that was not committed in their jurisdiction? Did this action not undermine the Garda and Irish Justice system?
Ian Bailey is now technically a convicted murderer and as someone said earlier, it will be interesting to see how the Netflix will take this.

oceanman

if i had to take a guess as to who the murderer was, i would say it had to be a cop.... think about it.

chooseusername

oceanman wrote: »

if i had to take a guess as to who the murderer was, i would say it had to be a cop.... think about it.

If that was the case they would hardly pick Bailey as their patsy.

[Deleted User]

In relation to the blood on the door of Sophies house. Sheridan says it was someone opening the door who had blood on their knuckle. Sophie had a cut at the base of her index finger shown in the doc at 9.35 mins in. Maybe she tried to get back in but was pulled back and then ran. Her hand is all brusided too was a block dropped on it? Or maybe she hit the killer in self defense.

oceanman

chooseusername wrote: »

If that was the case they would hardly pick Bailey as their patsy.

bailey for the most part picked himself by his actions, he went out of his way to draw attention to himself.

fryup

and how did he know she wasn't sexually assaulted? as he claimed in his initial article in the Star at the time

listermint

oceanman wrote: »

if i had to take a guess as to who the murderer was, i would say it had to be a cop.... think about it.

I'm sure it would have been easy to locate a guard who owned or accessed a blue fiesta at the time .

monkeybutter

listermint wrote: »

I'm sure it would have been easy to locate a guard who owned or accessed a blue fiesta at the time .

first you need to look though

chooseusername

oceanman wrote: »

bailey for the most part picked himself by his actions, he went out of his way to draw attention to himself.

That's true , but drawing attention to himself was what he set about doing.
He is a narcissist.
Whether he was the perpetrator or not, I don't know,
but I'd say when he was named prime suspect he relished it and revelled in the infamy.
Then he set about running rings around the "uneducated" (his words) garda and securing his place in the hall of infamy.

Joe Don Dante

Jeremy Iorns, he would have been 47 then and a known womaniser

jimwallace197

oceanman wrote: »

if i had to take a guess as to who the murderer was, i would say it had to be a cop.... think about it.

The more you like at this case, the more that makes sense. Evidence going missing, coercion & bribery of witnesses, lack of follow up with other key witnesses, reports of Gards being a law onto themselves in the area, zoning in on a suspect despite no hard evidence within days of the murder and refusing to budge from the position. Good deflection.

Either they are staggeringly incompetent or they are protecting one of their own.

Deeec

jimwallace197 wrote: »

The more you like at this case, the more that makes sense. Evidence going missing, coercion & bribery of witnesses, lack of follow up with other key witnesses, reports of Gards being a law onto themselves in the area, zoning in on a suspect despite no hard evidence within days of the murder and refusing to budge from the position. Good deflection.

Either they are staggeringly incompetent or they are protecting one of their own.

I think it was to cover up incompetance. The gardai would have known within days of the murder that they fecked up the investigation by not preserving the murder scene. Head office would not have been impressed given it was such a high profile murder. They had to find someone to pin it on - Ian Bailey.

The notion that a randy garda called up to Sophies house looking for some action that night is very far fetched to me.

jimwallace197

Deeec wrote: »

I think it was to cover up incompetance. The gardai would have known within days of the murder that they fecked up the investigation by not preserving the murder scene. Head office would not have been impressed given it was such a high profile murder. They had to find someone to pin it on - Ian Bailey.

The notion that a randy garda called up to Sophies house looking for some action that night is very far fetched to me.

A randy garda who thought he was the big man about town, liked having affairs with foreign women, she wasnt shy about having affairs either though in fairness. She was known to have been complaining about drug dealers in the area also, a way they would have come into contact certainly. I dunno, who knows, it just seems that even for the Gardai, this level of incompetence is a step too far, especially the gate going missing and so many other vital key pieces of information & evidence ignored. Even the Garda washing the wine glasses at the victims house, wtf.

I dont know what kind of training they were doing in templemore at the time but I thought preserving a crime scene as serious as this would be lesson no.1.

A foreign hitman, too messy, unprofessional and risky especially considering the close proximity of the neighbours house. Much better to kill her somewhere else.

A scorned lover, possibly, but there would have been evidence of this, witnesses, friends, phonecalls, fingerprints, DNA, friends she would have confided in about another man surely. Also the average joe isnt good at covering up a crime such as this especially back then.

A local senior garda though with a bad reputation for affairs, yes, things start to add up then. And for those saying other gards might have come clean by now if this was the case. I dont know about that, look at many of the things they have been involved with over the last few years, the Maurice McCabe scandal for starters. When it comes to protecting and covering up their own, there's few better.

Taeholic

Deeec wrote: »

I think it was to cover up incompetance. The gardai would have known within days of the murder that they fecked up the investigation by not preserving the murder scene. Head office would not have been impressed given it was such a high profile murder. They had to find someone to pin it on - Ian Bailey.

Agree with this. High profile case, sheer incompetence from the very start and needed to close the case quickly. And did everything they could to get the proof they needed against Bailey. Who didbt help his own cause and seems to enjoy the notoriety of being the main suspect. Or at least likes the attention.

I'm sure they were banking on DPP to send the case to trial. Meanwhile Sophie and her family never got the justice they deserve. Sad really

Mantis Toboggan

Has all the hallmarks of a cover up job by the Gardai.

[Deleted User]

Jules Thomas, Baileys partner until recently, is one of the main reasons I believe he didn't commit the murder. She comes across as very tough and very intuitive. She says if he commited a violent murder that night she would have known, his personality was not quite and bottled up, it would have come out at some time, and she would know.
She may have her flaws, staying with him after he beat her, as many women do, but she is not a liar as far as I can tell.
Her quiet life was badly messed up by this over the past decades. If the authorities deliberately did this they should be held accountable for the damage they caused to her.

[Deleted User]

jimwallace197 wrote: »

A randy garda who thought he was the big man about town, liked having affairs with foreign women, she wasnt shy about having affairs either though in fairness. She was known to have been complaining about drug dealers in the area also, a way they would have come into contact certainly. I dunno, who knows, it just seems that even for the Gardai, this level of incompetence is a step too far, especially the gate going missing and so many other vital key pieces of information & evidence ignored. Even the Garda washing the wine glasses at the victims house, wtf.

I dont know what kind of training they were doing in templemore at the time but I thought preserving a crime scene as serious as this would be lesson no.1.

A foreign hitman, too messy, unprofessional and risky especially considering the close proximity of the neighbours house. Much better to kill her somewhere else.

A scorned lover, possibly, but there would have been evidence of this, witnesses, friends, phonecalls, fingerprints, DNA, friends she would have confided in about another man surely. Also the average joe isnt good at covering up a crime such as this especially back then.

A local senior garda though with a bad reputation for affairs, yes, things start to add up then. And for those saying other gards might have come clean by now if this was the case. I dont know about that, look at many of the things they have been involved with over the last few years, the Maurice McCabe scandal for starters. When it comes to protecting and covering up their own, there's few better.

Sophie had complained about drug dealers? i didn't know that. It seems to me there was a great tolerance for drugs there

Gamb!t

jones wrote: »

Totally agree with the above. To my mind Bailey is guilty as sin and a total narcissist with a known history of violence - it wouldn't surprise me if he admits to it on his deathbed (even if he didn't do it) just to get one last bit of attention. But come on who the feck did this if not him? The phantom French dude? Not likely.

I think the Gardai all 'knew' it was him too and they definitely acted strangely themselves in trying to get him convicted but i think it all came from trying to get their man. The less said about Marie Farrell the better, absolute train crash of a person IMO and definitely knows more than she's saying. None of her story makes sense at all even taking into account the affair.

I haven't actually watched this yet but will start tonight but finished west Cork recently and loved it.

Im not sure it is Bailey.There's just something about him and the evidence they tried to pin on him just doesnt add up. If it is him he has played the looney card well. The guy looks drained from the whole thing also.

I often thought who ever it was either knew her( possibly acquainted with her) and was familiar with the area or was a power of authority (maybe a guard?) due to the mismangement of the evidence that managed to cook up some spiel get her to come out of the house at that hour of the night.

jimwallace197

SoulWriter wrote: »

Sophie had complained about drug dealers? i didn't know that. It seems to me there was a great tolerance for drugs there

According to various reports I have read, yes she was & even a poster back who was in the area not long after the murders, mentioned he knew of Sophie and knew she liked to complain about everything. Certainly the type of person who would be in contact with the local gards more often than not

Also, the housekeeper gave a statement saying Sophie knew someone had been using her house while she was away. (Bath being used etc)

All point to the likelihood of her having contact with the gardai in the area at least on some occasions. Of course, we haven't heard a pip out of the gards about this. I guess they forgot to record those reports like everything else

Gamb!t

Munstergirl854 wrote: »

Has anyone heard the theory about the local married guard who is now deceased?
Violent temper with a history of affairs...

I heard it years ago but if someone local could add more detail that would be great.

Apologies if it has been mentioned I havnt read this thread or watched doc yet.

I heard that too,"the silver fox" was a name I heard mentioned.

Loafing Oaf

jimwallace197 wrote: »

A randy garda who thought he was the big man about town, liked having affairs with foreign women, she wasnt shy about having affairs either though in fairness.

Sounding a bit like

[Deleted User]

jimwallace197 wrote: »

According to various reports I have read, yes she was & even a poster back who was in the area not long after the murders, mentioned he knew of Sophie and knew she liked to complain about everything. Certainly the type of person who would be in contact with the local gards more often than not

Also, the housekeeper gave a statement saying Sophie knew someone had been using her house while she was away. (Bath being used etc)

All point to the likelihood of her having contact with the gardai in the area at least on some occasions. Of course, we haven't heard a pip out of the gards about this. I guess they forgot to record those reports like everything else

Thanks. i saw that bold bit alright

robwen

- According to a top former Irish cold case squad detective who met her family and reviewed the whole file on the case, the filmmaker's killer is local — and more than likely still living in West Cork

The senior ex-Garda interviewed by The Star on condition of anonymity said the whole investigation was a mess from the beginning from sealing off of the crime scene right down to the interviewing of witnesses.

After much consideration the Cold Case squad decided not to pursue the matter because they didn’t think they would ever get a conviction because so much damage was done to potential evidence.

“From the get-go we felt more than likely this was a one-off attack by someone who wanted to have sex with her but it didn’t happen,” he said.

“Having read the whole file and going from experience of 99 per cent of these types of cases the killer is local and knows the victim. What we didn’t understand is why every local pervert was not rounded up, interviewed and DNA samples taken.

“Instead all the focus was on Ian Bailey when the truth is there was little or no evidence against him.

“Normally in a murder investigation you gather the evidence and see where it leads you, and if those procedures had been followed Ian Bailey would have been eliminated very quickly, in my view.

“But because he was an outsider somebody decided he was the killer so all the focus was in obtaining evidence to prove he did it.

“My own view is the killer was definitely local and is probably still living in the community. “Whatever happened between him and her that night was a one-off attack, he exploded and beat her to death.

“Let’s be honest, have there been any murders around the area since? The answer is no. So what does that tell you? Somebody in West Cork is harbouring a very dark secret. It is not as if there is a serial killer on the loose.” -

https://www-buzz-ie.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.buzz.ie/news/new-theory-emerges-25-year-24303807.amp?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16245701878699&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.buzz.ie%2Fnews%2Fnew-theory-emerges-25-year-24303807

listermint

Pretty much my sentiments.

siblers

Why don't any of the Brits down in Schull have any Irish twang in their accents. It's a bit unusual

MoonUnit75

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Has all the hallmarks of a cover up job by the Gardai.

Apart from the slightly inconvenient matter of the phone calls between the detectives on the case being recorded inadvertently without their knowledge and being discovered by chance well over a decade later. Those calls paint a clear picture, they were certain Bailey was guilty and they were exceptionally frustrated that they couldn't get hard evidence. They were pinning their best chance on Bailey admitting it in a moment of madness to informers.

Loafing Oaf

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

phone calls between the detectives on the case being recorded inadvertently without their knowledge and being discovered by chance

That's what they want you to believe!:P

fryup

monkeybutter wrote: »

maybe it was the PLUMBER

well makes a change from the Butler,

but come to think of it, maybe you're on to something there..i mean she did come over to "fix the heating" and i don't think a petit french lady would be up to much DIY, so more than likely she hired a handyman to do the job..so the question is was there any rogue tradesmen with a dodgy background sniffing around back then??