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The Irish protocol.

downcow

The protocol will be challenged next week in the british high courts.
I am interested in what you guys believe is an appropriate way forward if it is declared illegal, as I have a haunch it will.
Is it appropriate to continue down an illegal road or will it be time for a rethink?

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downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Couple of things here, not least the continued Unionist mistake of trusting a word a British PM or SoS tells them but also the inference that they have accepted the Protocol is going nowhere and will accept tweaks.
Will somebody tell them that the facility to make those tweaks were built into the Protocol already? That facility, is being used at the moment as Britain raises concerns and solutions are sought.

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1407237367195385857

is this not exactly what the shinners done last week?

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

is this not exactly what the shinners done last week?

Nah - they were just playing the game: get the NIS to promise an Irish Language Act if the DUP didn't give them one first. That put the onus on the DUP to give SF something that the DUP really, really, really didn't want to give them. And, as we've seen, in the end, the DUP preferred to blow their own head off rather than make a trivial gesture of compromise. Three-nil to Sinn Féin, and the ball is still in play.

Speedline

CelticRambler wrote: »

Nah - they were just playing the game: get the NIS to promise an Irish Language Act if the DUP didn't give them one first. That put the onus on the DUP to give SF something that the DUP really, really, really didn't want to give them. And, as we've seen, in the end, the DUP preferred to blow their own head off rather than make a trivial gesture of compromise. Three-nil to Sinn Féin, and the ball is still in play.

Wait until they hear that the uk government are planning on implementing abortion services in NI if the assembly don't.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

is this not exactly what the shinners done last week?

The Shinners aren't fussed whether the SoS keeps his word or not or advocating for the Union.

SoS reneges, more grist to their mill.

PM/SoS reneges on Unionists...Unionism implodes.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

The protocol will be challenged next week in the british high courts.
I am interested in what you guys believe is an appropriate way forward if it is declared illegal, as I have a haunch it will.
Is it appropriate to continue down an illegal road or will it be time for a rethink?

I just want to go back to the heady days of the OP in this thread.

Who knew the Unionist implosion would be so magnificent?

---

Poots' pronouncements the last few days have been nothing short of amazing. Who does he think he is, the DUP leader or First Minister or something?

downcow

Great to see Eu starting to develop a wee bit of common sense

Seems they have done an about turn from taking U.K. to court for extending the grace period, they are about to extend it further.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Great to see Eu starting to develop a wee bit of common sense

:rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Great to see Eu starting to develop a wee bit of common sense

Seems they have done an about turn from taking U.K. to court for extending the grace period, they are about to extend it further.

I was waiting for this.

The EU forced Britain to not take unilateral action and to ask for the grace periods to be extended.

FrancieBrady

Not sure what was funniest thing today...watching Sammy getting owned on Newsnight last night on the Protocol or the roll out of the North Koreanesque One Nation campaign in Britain.

Chorus:
We are Britain
And we have one dream
To unite all people
In one great team (repeat)

Verse 1:
Our nation survived through many storms and many wars
We’ve opened our doors, and widened our island’s shores
We celebrate our differences with love in our hearts
United forever, never apart

Chorus:
We are Britain
And we have one dream
To unite all people
In one great team (repeat)

Verse 2:
So many different races, standing in the same place
So many different faces, moving at the same pace
We all stand together with pride in our hearts
United forever, never apart

Chorus:
We are Britain
And we have one dream
To unite all people
In one great team (repeat)

Outro:
Strong Britain, Great Nation
Strong Britain, Great Nation
Strong Britain, Great Nation
Strong Britain, Great Na-a-tion.

BonnieSituation

They sent Sammy out? At this stage that's like letting Dougal do a funeral.

Jesus. That's awful. Or great, I guess. Any clips of this?

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They sent Sammy out? At this stage that's like letting Dougal do a funeral.

Jesus. That's awful. Or great, I guess. Any clips of this?

Part of it here, (do not adjust your red balance

)

https://twitter.com/JibbaJabb/status/1407641631390633985

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I was waiting for this.

The EU forced Britain to not take unilateral action and to ask for the grace periods to be extended.

Haha. The U.K. were very clear that they were extending it whether Eu agreed or not. Eu are about to agree.
You are some spinner

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Haha. The U.K. were very clear that they were extending it whether Eu agreed or not. Eu are about to agree.
You are some spinner

The UK formally applied for permission using the proper mechanism. Nothing abnormal, just following the rules.

They are bull****ting you again, pretending to be fighting with the EU and you are buying it as intended.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Seems they have done an about turn from taking U.K. to court for extending the grace period, they are about to extend it further.

Just for clarity, can you post some evidence that the EU have done a u-turn on their decision to take the UK to court?

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They sent Sammy out? At this stage that's like letting Dougal do a funeral.

Jesus. That's awful. Or great, I guess. Any clips of this?

I was only half-joking here, but I saw his performance in the Commons from earlier as well.

Heaven's above.

Peregrinus

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Just for clarity, can you post some evidence that the EU have done a u-turn on their decision to take the UK to court?

He made that bit up. The ECJ proceedings are continuing. I don't think there have been any reports otherwise.

Here in the real world, the usual dance is taking place. As the deadline approaches, the UK signals its willingness to behave in a less irresponsible fashion. There has been a subtle shift in rhetoric - the UK government is no longer saying that the protocol is unworkable; just that "the current position of the protocol is not sustainable", and Brandon Lewis is "confident that Britain and the EU would agree changes to the operation of the protocol". The EU has been saying all along that this is how the matter must be addressed, and the UK is now signalling its wilingness to address it in that fashion. This is what makes it possible for the EU to brief that it will consider extending the grace period, subject to the UK accepting conditions which are exactly the conditions that, all along, you would have expected the EU to impose.

Nobody who has observed the unfolding of the Brexit process over the last five years will be greatly suprised by any of this. Anybody who sees it as "the EU developing a bit of common sense" is definitely taking a very one-eyed view here, since there is no "development" here; the EU is handling the matter pretty much as it has been handling it all along; and (b) it is - once again - the UK that has shifted its position in order to conform to the EU's requirements for moving on this matter.

Seth Brundle

Former MP, Jr Minister to NI and former Governor to Hong Kong, Lord Patten, has told the UK Government to stop lying about the NIP...

Chris Patten has called on the UK government to “tell the truth” and implement the “legally binding” Northern Ireland protocol, saying “the problem at heart is not the sausages you get from Sainsbury’s but the porkies that we all get, home and abroad, from Downing Street.”
...
Accusing the UK prime minister of giving assurances on Brexit to unionists and other MPs “that you must know are not true”, he said the British government must now “explain, which happens to be true, that both communities in Northern Ireland are equally challenged by the way Brexit works, but they are given significant advantage through the protocol, as many have pointed out, to get the best of both worlds.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/uk-government-must-tell-the-truth-and-implement-ni-protocol-chris-patten-1.4601733

downcow

The bbc ‘the view’ programme last night was excellent on the protocol.
Any of you who are struggling to understand how Eu / Roi are being intransigent show have a watch.
It is clear that sense is in NIs side and it is destined to be reformed.
That will get us to a great place - best of both worlds.

And the prophets of doom on here who are saying it can’t be changed because it is an international agreement should tak a wee look at article 13 A lawyer pointed out that the protocol can be changed in part or whole.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

the protocol can be changed in part or whole.

Only to be replaced by something doing the same job and you need a British Government that's acting in good faith (or with less abject incompetence) for that to happen.

Good luck with that, unionists are being played again because Frost is incompetent.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Only to be replaced by something doing the same job and you need a British Government that's acting in good faith (or with less abject incompetence) for that to happen.

Good luck with that, unionists are being played again because Frost is incompetent.

All the neutrals last night were saying that what the Eu needs to get is that you can’t protect the gfa or the peace by protecting only one side of it. They said the east west trade needs same protections as north south.

I was very resssured. I was sure we were heading back to a violent conflict. After last night I am very confident the protocol will change significantly.
We are talking 0.02% of the Eu gdp Is that worth kicking off a conflict for. I know there are many rediculous decisions made by Eu but even I trust them to wise up on this one

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

All the neutrals last night were saying that what the Eu needs to get is that you can’t protect the gfa or the peace by protecting only one side of it. They said the east west trade needs same protections as north south.

I watched it. What neutrals? The Irish former diplomat reminded Emma Pengelly that the DUP delivered Brexit and the NI Protocol was the outworking of it.

I know there are many rediculous decisions made by Eu but even I trust them to wise up on this one

The EU has acted with maturity and clarity. As Simon Hoare MP told international embarrassment Sammy Wilson the farmers/producers in Britain would bite the hand off you to have the privileges we in the EU have granted to businesses in the north.

As for your mutterings on the return of conflict, you think that will do anything for your 'precious union'? If anything it would expedite its ending.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

After last night I am very confident the protocol will change significantly.

What significant changes are you expecting?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

All the neutrals last night were saying that what the Eu needs to get is that you can’t protect the gfa or the peace by protecting only one side of it. They said the east west trade needs same protections as north south.

I was very resssured. I was sure we were heading back to a violent conflict. After last night I am very confident the protocol will change significantly.
We are talking 0.02% of the Eu gdp Is that worth kicking off a conflict for. I know there are many rediculous decisions made by Eu but even I trust them to wise up on this one

The Protocol will change in respect of the flexibilities already in the Protocol and already available to the EU and the UK.

The climbdown by belligerent Unionism is underway. 'Protocol stays but Unionism wins anyway because we say so'. 'Never Never Never,,,ah shure maybe, go on'.

FrancieBrady

She should have said 'where you get your sausages and your sandwiches doesn't define your identity' in answer to some here. But she said it well anyway, Gavin Robinson could only sit there shaking his head in embarrassment.

https://twitter.com/rodneyedwards/status/1408189906938122242

[Deleted User]

The fight against this from Unionism is self defeating yet again. There has to be some kind of border, that's clear. Having it at ports and airports is obviously easier than having it on land. Suppose they did get their way and a border was introduced between north and south, the only way that would work would involve causing massive inconvenience, whereas the east/west one is far less disruptive.
A hard north/south border really gives more of a reason to back reunification, it'd probably make it inevitable very quickly.
Looked at another way, the current arrangement possibly doesn't suit SF, it'd harden and expand the anti-partition movement if there was a hard border.
It's crazy to look back at the Brexit campaign, SF opposed it and the DUP were for it. It was passed with disastrous consequences for unionism and it has given a huge boost to the campaign for a united Ireland, which has become mainstream.

PokeHerKing

downcow wrote: »

All the neutrals last night were saying that what the Eu needs to get is that you can’t protect the gfa or the peace by protecting only one side of it. They said the east west trade needs same protections as north south.

I was very resssured. I was sure we were heading back to a violent conflict. After last night I am very confident the protocol will change significantly.
We are talking 0.02% of the Eu gdp Is that worth kicking off a conflict for. I know there are many rediculous decisions made by Eu but even I trust them to wise up on this one

We're back to squaring that circle. You can't leave the single market but not leave the single market. So there's going to be checks somewhere. I know you know this though. You'd just prefer those checks to be on the island.

FrancieBrady

PokeHerKing wrote: »

We're back to squaring that circle. You can't leave the single market but not leave the single market. So there's going to be checks somewhere. I know you know this though. You'd just prefer those checks to be on the island.

They are busy fashioning a 'victory' out of it all. Fact is, what they thought was going to save them...Brexit and a hard border, has ended up sundering them, perhaps terminally. A more chastened, moderate Unionism is emerging in the shape of the UUP.

Seth Brundle

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It's crazy to look back at the Brexit campaign, SF opposed it and the DUP were for it. It was passed with disastrous consequences for unionism and it has given a huge boost to the campaign for a united Ireland, which has become mainstream.

If I recall correctly, the DUP spent something like thirty minutes before deciding that being pro-Brexit was the way to go.
"You reap what you sow"

Hamsterchops

I agree with Naomi Long, if you take the constitutional question out of the equation you de-escalate the situation, currently there is far too much talk about Constitutional (border) tensions, when all the talk should be about trade, forget where the sausages come from, NI is still part of the UK and it's safe in that regard, so once you park that, all you need is trade talk, and lots of it.

With one foot in the EU & the other foot in the UK = NI can have the best of both worlds.

Yes/No?

Seth Brundle

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I agree with Naomi Long, if you take the constitutional question out of the equation you de-escalate the situation, currently there is far too much talk about Constitutional (border) tensions, when all the talk should be about trade, forget where the sausages come from, NI is still part of the UK and it's safe in that regard, so once you park that, all you need is trade talk, and lots of it.

With one foot in the EU & the other foot in the UK = NI can have the best of both worlds.

Yes/No?

There is no constitutional question.
The various legal challenges were unsuccesful in pointing any question out.
Lord Frost also has said that the NIP is about trade and not related to the constitution.

The constitution is being thrown about by the disingenuous parties such as the DUP in order to create an issue that is not there.