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Random EV thoughts.....

Old diesel

The main motors forum has the motors chat thread for the little things one would like to say but might not justify a thread.

Thought it might be an idea for here re hybrids and EV stuff.....

To kick off - i wonder if a new measurement for EVs might be assuming a start trip at 100 percent......

A how much range do you get with a 15 minute stop.

With a 350 kw charging a Porsche Tayman might do very well with getting on for 400 miles...

A Leaf 62 not so good.

Obviously where a car can do more then 50 kw charging we would need both a 50 kw and a whatever the cars top rate is figure*.

*IF chargers are available

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whippet

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Absolutely, I do think hydrogen has a place in transport, but cars aren't one of them

Aircraft and shipping are fairly obvious ones, where the range is needed the investment for fueling systems make sense

Trains and trucks, maybe for longer range needs but as battery costs go down then that market will get squeezed

the NI government are investing in Hydrogen - with some of the 'clean' hydrogen technologies coming on stream.

a single unit capable of producing 450kg of Hydrogen a day ... but looks like the byproduct of O2 is almost as valuable !

https://www.cph2.com/news/clean-power-hydrogen-and-ni-water-working-together-to-reduce-emissions/

the_amazing_raisin

Kramer wrote: »

Then the argument will turn to the "monstrously large & recklessly inefficient, planet destroying" electric SUVs. kWh/100km figures will become the new BER certification for EVs, to target these needless "resource hogs".

A needlessly big SUV or needlessly fast Tesla will be taxed accordingly, as will the miles travelled annually, until we are all in 10hp eco machines (electric bikes :pac:).

You mean exactly what's been done with ICE cars for years?

I do actually believe we need to reduce the amount of cars we have on the roads long term. Obviously this isn't an option for someone commuting from Athlone to Dublin, but arguably there's a lot of people in the suburbs of cities who could easily cycle to and from the city or use public transport

And I'm sure they would do this is if there was great cycling and public transport infrastrucutre and that's why I think there should be considerable investment in those areas

However, you can't have a car friendly city and a cycling/pedestrian friendly city at the same time. Ultimately city centres need to be a lot more pedentrian friendly and this is going to come at the cost of making them a hassle to drive through

Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily, walk through any city in the Netherlands and it's generally a lot more nicer and more relaxing than any city in Ireland.

Do drviers in the Netherlands complain about the car unfirendly cities? A bit, but they've learned to live with it and I think many Dutch people wouldn't swap their city planners for ours

All this isn't by accident, the Dutch governments have been working to make their cities this way for over 30 years

If it took a nation which is generally quite forward thinking 30 years to do it then it'll probably take us backwards paddy's about 50 years at least :rolleyes:

So if you ask me now whether we should focus on now, I would say both

But I'd expect the transition to EVs to be a lot quicker, and that's fine. By the time we'd be turning into a less car centred socienty, a lot of EVs being sold will be reaching the end of their lifetimes

So instead of this sudden forced mass extinction of cars, people just won't replace their cars, or go from 2 cars to 1 car. They'll use a bike or public transport because ideally they'll be a lot easier and more convenient

And yes, I know my ideas are totally unrealistic, and we live in a banana republic ruled by monkeys throwing sh!t at each other :pac:

silver_sky

MightyMunster wrote: »

That would be a good system for Model 3 and Y sales. Not so good for the ID4 or Leaf.

Wouldn't it push manufacturers to produce more efficient vehicles? It'd have to be done EU-wide though. If only Ireland did it then it'd be worse.

MightyMunster

Kramer wrote: »

Then the argument will turn to the "monstrously large & recklessly inefficient, planet destroying" electric SUVs. kWh/100km figures will become the new BER certification for EVs, to target these needless "resource hogs".

A needlessly big SUV or needlessly fast Tesla will be taxed accordingly, as will the miles travelled annually, until we are all in 10hp eco machines (electric bikes :pac:).

That would be a good system for Model 3 and Y sales. Not so good for the ID4 or Leaf.

Kramer

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

More charging infrastructure and you wouldn't need to ban anything

Then the argument will turn to the "monstrously large & recklessly inefficient, planet destroying" electric SUVs. kWh/100km figures will become the new BER certification for EVs, to target these needless "resource hogs".

A needlessly big SUV or needlessly fast Tesla will be taxed accordingly, as will the miles travelled annually, until we are all in 10hp eco machines (electric bikes :pac:).

the_amazing_raisin

More charging infrastructure and you wouldn't need to ban anything

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

You can easily get a second hand charge point and have it installed for €600 all in.

Electricians here were basically calling for a minimum install fee of €450+ vat, so I think that side of it could be more problematic these days. €1500 inc. install is common enough now

ELM327 wrote: »

Say I bought one of the phevs I like. The X5 45e. A 24kWh battery (~20kWh net) with a 3kW onboard charger.

Is that a good use of a 22kW ac charger? No - and the use of the scant resource should be targeted by pricing.

I really don't think PHEVs hogging charge points are a huge issue these days & if they are, wouldn't a better solution be to install heaps & heaps of cheap, 7kW outlets?
Wouldn't 6x 7kW Type 2 sockets be a better use of resources than 22kW units, which only a handful of cars can utilise to the max?

We've barely seen any BEV/PHEV penetration yet & we're already calling to ban PHEVs & penalise slower charging BEVs too?
An X5 45e doing a an 80km daily commute, largely urban in nature, is every bit as good as a 100kWh Model X doing the same job.

Penalise one because it charges too slowly on AC?

More charging infrastructure please, then we can talk about banning sh1t

Black_Knight

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I think An Post AddressPal still works, although I think they don't handle batteries, and will hit you with any customs fees

You could also try amazon.de

Yeah, amazon.de would need something like mailboxde. About €18 to ship. Total of a bit over €80 delivered. Would probably rather just give Micksgarage €95 for it.

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

Any means of shipping to Ireland from the UK these days?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B015TKPT1A/

NOCO Boost is on a deal at the moment, but won't ship to Ireland due to the battery. Didn't parcel motel etc say they've stopped shipping to Ireland due to brexit?

I think An Post AddressPal still works, although I think they don't handle batteries, and will hit you with any customs fees

You could also try amazon.de

Black_Knight

Any means of shipping to Ireland from the UK these days?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B015TKPT1A/

NOCO Boost is on a deal at the moment, but won't ship to Ireland due to the battery. Didn't parcel motel etc say they've stopped shipping to Ireland due to brexit?

the_amazing_raisin

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Hydrogen would want to get a lot better than 268kWh (to produce 5.6kg) for 1,003km (at 41km/h).... I'll do 1,600km at 120km/h with 268kWh....

And then there's the storage, transport, and distribution after it's produced..... Here's a new Hydrogen tanker...

meanwhile the vast vast majority of homes/towns/cities already have electricity.... people even get it for free off their roof!!

Absolutely, I do think hydrogen has a place in transport, but cars aren't one of them

Aircraft and shipping are fairly obvious ones, where the range is needed the investment for fueling systems make sense

Trains and trucks, maybe for longer range needs but as battery costs go down then that market will get squeezed

kanuseeme

unkel wrote: »

Toyota is the last man standing firm. If they stand a little bit longer they'll fall and they won't be able to get up again

Only 35 Fuel cell cars for sale in the 2nd hand market out of the 91000 Toyota's in Japan of which 10 000 or so are hybrid and only 330 are phev.

I can't imagine they have much of a assembly line dedicated to fuel cells. It will probably run its course and close down.

AndyBoBandy

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

My guess is they're betting on the long game, hoping to jump straight from hybrids to hydrogren

And who knows, maybe they're right, batteries will only be dominant until something better comes along

Hydrogen would want to get a lot better than 268kWh (to produce 5.6kg) for 1,003km (at 41km/h).... I'll do 1,600km at 120km/h with 268kWh....

And then there's the storage, transport, and distribution after it's produced..... Here's a new Hydrogen tanker...

Tabnabs wrote: »

'Suiso Frontier', the world’s first purpose-built liquefied hydrogen carrier.

Suiso Frontier was developed primarily to provide a means of transporting liquefied hydrogen (LH2) at 1/800 of its original gas-state volume, cooled to –253 degrees Celsius, safely and in large quantities over long distances by sea. This is made possible thanks to a new 1,250-cubic-metre, vacuum-insulated double-shell-structure stainless steel LH2 cargo tank specially developed by Harima Works

https://www.bairdmaritime.com/ship-world/tanker-world/gas-tanker-world/vessel-review-suiso-frontier-japanese-lh2-carrier-sets-the-pace-in-hydrogen-transport/

meanwhile the vast vast majority of homes/towns/cities already have electricity.... people even get it for free off their roof!!

the_amazing_raisin

unkel wrote: »

Toyota is the last man standing firm. If they stand a little bit longer they'll fall and they won't be able to get up again

My guess is they're betting on the long game, hoping to jump straight from hybrids to hydrogren

And who knows, maybe they're right, batteries will only be dominant until something better comes along

Based on the ICE engine, they only have to wait another 100 years or so!

unkel

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Looks like FCEVs are finally on the way out

https://www.electrive.com/2021/06/21/honda-to-conclude-production-of-clarity-fcev/

Toyota is the last man standing firm. If they stand a little bit longer they'll fall and they won't be able to get up again

the_amazing_raisin

Looks like FCEVs are finally on the way out

https://www.electrive.com/2021/06/21/honda-to-conclude-production-of-clarity-fcev/

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

5/60 litres is 1/12th or 8%.
8% * 22kW = 2kWh.

That's hardly enough to account for the disparity between peak power and what the car is using the resource for. It needs to be at least 11kWh as I outlined above, as it accounts for half an hour of peak usage.

€3.50 minimum charge, coveres about 15kWh

It just has to be more expensive than parking. As much as I like free parking at chargers, until we get proper AC charging parks then it's just open to abuse

ELM327

5/60 litres is 1/12th or 8%.
8% * 22kW = 2kWh.

That's hardly enough to account for the disparity between peak power and what the car is using the resource for. It needs to be at least 11kWh as I outlined above, as it accounts for half an hour of peak usage.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

The unit can deliver 22kW so lets assume the "minimum vend" is a 30 minute stay getting 11kWh. If you use less than 11kWh then you get billed for 11kWh. If you use more, then you pay for more. Similar to the 2 litre/5 litre minimum vend at fossil fuel stations

A fair analogy, so if they put a minimum usage fee of around 5% of the capacity (1.1kW) similar to how an average fuel tank is around 45/60 litres and the fuel pump gives minimum vend of 2/5 litres

ELM327

No, thats what I'm saying, dont "ban" anyone.
Price the resource accordingly.

The unit can deliver 22kW so lets assume the "minimum vend" is a 30 minute stay getting 11kWh. If you use less than 11kWh then you get billed for 11kWh. If you use more, then you pay for more. Similar to the 2 litre/5 litre minimum vend at fossil fuel stations

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

Is that a good use of a 22kW ac charger? No - and the use of the scant resource should be targeted by pricing.

Should we should also ban early Nissan Leaf's from those chargers, and maybe the 6.6kW charging cars also? I get's it's another case of my use case is better than yours so get out of my way.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

I'd much rather see PHEVs charged on the public AC network than driving round cities on dino juice.

Say I bought one of the phevs I like. The X5 45e. A 24kWh battery (~20kWh net) with a 3kW onboard charger.

Is that a good use of a 22kW ac charger? No - and the use of the scant resource should be targeted by pricing.

I agree with Andy, free for all but a "minimum quantity" charge applied whether you use it or not.

liamog

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Just dis-incentive the public charging of PHEV's...

Bring in a minimum spend/minimum kWh usage at AC chargers of say 10-15kWh...

I'd much rather see PHEVs charged on the public AC network than driving round cities on dino juice.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

I think you'd have to be nuts to spend the extra on buying a PHEV and then not have a mechanism to charge at home

Not really an extra in many cases, there were a bunch of PHEVs sold in the UK as company cars because they had a BIK exemption

When the UK government figured out those cars were never being plugged in they pulled the exemption and all those cars got sold on

There were a couple of years there that PHEVs were going quite cheap and when combined with the VRT rebate and cheap road tax they were around the same price as a diesel car

unkel

kanuseeme wrote: »

It's not free it's a 600 euro grant, that seems to end up in the electrician's pocket.

You can easily get a second hand charge point and have it installed for €600 all in. So for free. Might take some work looking at ads and you might have to make more than just one phone call though. Not for lazy folks

kanuseeme

https://www.donedeal.ie/coaches-for-sale/higer-fully-electric-range-comes-to-harris/27738858

The range from the AZURE is industry-leading with 370km on a single charge however with driver training and regeneration this can go to over 400km.

The charging time from 20% is about 2.5 hours and the great news is that the DC charger comes with the vehicle when you buy it from Harris Bus & Coach.
The charging type is CCS2 so it will interact with any DC CCS2 fast charger.
AZURE can also be partly charged so you don't need to leave it charging for hours during the day, it's on the road earning its keep.

Dubba

I'm not eligible for the €600 grant because I live in a terrace house with a footpath in front of my car space.

I was considering getting an exterior 3 pin wall socket installed and purchasing a commando adapter / cable. I don't fancy spending ~1k on a charge point without the grant

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/masterplug-10a-2-3kw-mode-2-type-1-socket-electric-vehicle-charging-cable-10m/463GV?gclid=CjwKCAjw8cCGBhB6EiwAgORey54XyvzezW13Shgddh3Yq5ssQ8Tk5rc0Z-Q2xO-uiKwe7ttWXh4RSxoC8_4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

kanuseeme

unkel wrote: »

Sure why would you have a home charge point installed for free, courtesy of the tax payer? Something that you will need for sure for your next car which is likely to be fully electric? Why would you want to save €4 in fuel every day when you charge it up? Why would you want to go easier on the environment? Surely better wait to install one until you really need one, the subsidy is gone and you will have to pay for it yourself?

I don't have a proper home charge point, I still start my day with a full battery.

It's not free it's a 600 euro grant, that seems to end up in the electrician's pocket.

My home charge point cost me 50 euro for an outdoor extension reel.

kanuseeme

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Just dis-incentive the public charging of PHEV's...

Bring in a minimum spend/minimum kWh usage at AC chargers of say 10-15kWh...

So when you hook up to an eCars AC charger, you are immediately debited €2.68 - €4.02 from your account for 10 or 15kWh of electricity.... and when the counter rolls over 10-15kWh, normal per kWh billing resumes...

It would also stop people plugging in and dailing down to avail of the handy parking space and people who buy a crapped out EV as a 2nd car and who could easily go from charge point to charge point during the day and have somewhat useful car.

I fail to see what you are trying to achieve, a lot of the newer phevs have 18+ kWh batteries.

I would prefer if you live with your decision to be tied to a charging network than trying to remove others from using it.

AndyBoBandy

silver_sky wrote: »

I'm not sure how they'd do it, but I don't think you should be allowed own a PHEV without home charging.

Just dis-incentive the public charging of PHEV's...

Bring in a minimum spend/minimum kWh usage at AC chargers of say 10-15kWh...

So when you hook up to an eCars AC charger, you are immediately debited €2.68 - €4.02 from your account for 10 or 15kWh of electricity.... and when the counter rolls over 10-15kWh, normal per kWh billing resumes...