jh79 wrote: » Only way it would solve the issue is if the choice is between a UI and a hard border.
downcow wrote: » I don't know a single unionist who did not know that this was always the case - long before gfa. If a majority of NI want to unite with North Korea then it would be allowed by UK. I don't know any country in the western world that does not have the right to self determination - It took the GFA to get republicans to this point - slow learners.
downcow wrote: » I don't know any country in the western world that does not have the right to self determination.
Hamsterchops wrote: » I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that if a border poll was held right now it would result in something like 63% of the NI population voting in favour of retaining the union (with Britain) staying within the UK. I'm open to correction.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Polls only show an opinion in the absence of any proposal/plan for a UI from the Irish government. That is pivotal.
jh79 wrote: » Don't see the advantage for Britian in calling a border poll in the near future. Something that would be a slow process with no guarantee of sucess. Getting the NI protocol to work is still the easiest option.
FrancieBrady wrote: » I disagree on the basis of the British always doing what is in it's own selfish interest. And getting rid of the complication of NI is most definitely in it's selfish interest now. The Protocol and the Irish Sea border will continue to complicate and thwart their selfish Brexit interests. There is no 'final solution', so to speak.
jh79 wrote: » A rejected UI doesn't solve anything for them though so without opinion polls showing a good chance of success I can't see why they would pursue it? Only options are a UI, hard border or an agreement with the EU. The path of least resistance is an agreement with the EU.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Which they don't look like they are interested in because it restricts their options going forward. Partition has bitten them badly over Brexit. It has left the mighty Brexit, Britannia riding the waves goal in a mess and they cannot free themselves of the EU...their selfish goal. Unionism is being shafted as a result, again and again. Brexit does not stop dead just because they solve the Protocol issue, further divergence from the EU puts strain there again.
blanch152 wrote: » None of that matters as the people of the North want to stay in the UK.
FrancieBrady wrote: » People who have not yet been presented with a plan or a proposal from Dublin. I believe there have always been back channels between Irish and British governments and that they (Dublin) have been told via one of those channels to start serious preparations for a Border Poll. Hence Varadkar clambering on to the UI band wagon recently.
blanch152 wrote: » There are back channels in every diplomatic relationship, it isn't rocket science to know that. However, the leap in logic to a claim that they have been told to start serious preparations for a Border Poll is another exercise in fantastical thinking that surrounds this whole issue. As for Varadkar, people need to listen carefully to exactly what he said, not to be fooled by the reactions to it. It bears repeating because so many seem to be ignorant of it.https://www.finegael.ie/speech-of-the-tanaiste-leo-varadkar-at-the-opening-of-the-2021-fine-gael-ard-fheis/ "The Assembly elections and the census tell us that in Northern Ireland there is no majority anymore. There are three minorities, one that defines itself as British and Unionist, another as Irish and Nationalist, and a third and growing middle ground, many born since the Good Friday Agreement, who refuse to be defined in this way. They see themselves as both Irish and British or perhaps simply Northern Irish. What’s most revealing in opinion polls, even among the youngest voters, is that neither nationalist nor unionist parties have a majority due to this growing middle ground" He mentions the third minority - the one you choose to ignore time and again. "We know the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed. That is not a 21st century vision." He rejects the Sinn Fein vision of republicanism, repeated ad nauseum on this thread by its adherents. "Unification must not be the annexation of Northern Ireland. It means something more, a new state designed together, a new constitution and one that reflects the diversity of a bi-national or multi-national state in which almost a million people are British. Like the New South Africa, a rainbow nation, not just orange and green. We have to be willing to consider all that we’d be willing to change – new titles, shared symbols, how devolution in the North would fit into the new arrangements, a new Senate to strengthen the representation of minorities, the role and status of our languages, a new and closer relationship with the United Kingdom." He opens the door to rejoining the Commonwealth, as well as ditching the symbols of Ireland hated by the Unionist community. "Until these questions are answered, until we have a clear proposition to put to the people on both parts of our island, then a border poll is premature."Lastly, he kicks the idea of a border poll far into the future.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Those questions could all be answered in the space of a year. Fantasy to state otherwise. *By the way, Mary Lou has long since addressed the possibility of rejoining the CW and ridding us of symbols and everything being on the table. Leo and yourself are just being party political trying to claim he is being original on those points.
schmittel wrote: » What are Mary Lou/SFs views on the commonwealth and dropping symbols?
FrancieBrady wrote: » 2018...way ahead of the bould Leo.https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-rejoining-the-commonwealth-4174082-Aug2018/
blanch152 wrote: » "It is not a proposition that I would be advancing – but I am me" She is against it, glad we are clear on that. Shows how true Leo was when he talked about "the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed."
FrancieBrady wrote: » So, are you 'for' rejoining the Commonwealth? Is Leo? What Mary Lou was being, was honest about her own position but open to accepting the opinion of others and open to doing things she would personally be against.
blanch152 wrote: » You know my opinion on these issues, I have made it clear. I don't speak for Leo.
FrancieBrady wrote: » I don't...are you 'for' rejoining the Commonwealth?
blanch152 wrote: » Why would I have an opinion on a united Ireland joining the Commonwealth when I don't believe a united Ireland is a realistic prospect during my lifetime?
McDonald said she cannot call for an openness, and then censor voices before the debate has begun. “You can hardly make that call and then say ‘we are not going to discuss any particular item’. And there are some people who think that rejoining the Commonwealth is a worthy proposition. “I think those that hold that view need to put that view forward, and I think it needs to be looked at, and debated, and it needs to be discussed.
FileNotFound wrote: » Never really payed heed to what the commonwealth actually means beyond the sporting games.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Wait'll you get a load of the Orange Order.
FileNotFound wrote: » Fairly familiar with the orange donkeys, their history and their marching. But seriously beyond getting to enter a games what does being in the commonwealth mean for a nation? Any info would be great Francie.
blanch152 wrote: » There are back channels in every diplomatic relationship, it isn't rocket science to know that. However, the leap in logic to a claim that they have been told to start serious preparations for a Border Poll is another exercise in fantastical thinking that surrounds this whole issue. As for Varadkar, people need to listen carefully to exactly what he said, not to be fooled by the reactions to it. It bears repeating because so many seem to be ignorant of it.https://www.finegael.ie/speech-of-the-tanaiste-leo-varadkar-at-the-opening-of-the-2021-fine-gael-ard-fheis/ "The Assembly elections and the census tell us that in Northern Ireland there is no majority anymore. There are three minorities, one that defines itself as British and Unionist, another as Irish and Nationalist, and a third and growing middle ground, many born since the Good Friday Agreement, who refuse to be defined in this way. They see themselves as both Irish and British or perhaps simply Northern Irish. What’s most revealing in opinion polls, even among the youngest voters, is that neither nationalist nor unionist parties have a majority due to this growing middle ground" He mentions the third minority - the one you choose to ignore time and again. "We know the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed. That is not a 21st century vision." He rejects the Sinn Fein vision of republicanism, repeated ad nauseum on this thread by its adherents. "Unification must not be the annexation of Northern Ireland. It means something more, a new state designed together, a new constitution and one that reflects the diversity of a bi-national or multi-national state in which almost a million people are British. Like the New South Africa, a rainbow nation, not just orange and green. We have to be willing to consider all that we’d be willing to change – new titles, shared symbols, how devolution in the North would fit into the new arrangements, a new Senate to strengthen the representation of minorities, the role and status of our languages, a new and closer relationship with the United Kingdom." He opens the door to rejoining the Commonwealth, as well as ditching the symbols of Ireland hated by the Unionist community. "Until these questions are answered, until we have a clear proposition to put to the people on both parts of our island, then a border poll is premature." Lastly, he kicks the idea of a border poll far into the future.
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