guy2231 wrote: » Republic and Unionist being the two majorities while partionists are mainly quiet about their beliefs and are a minority in the republic, they constantly advocate against a united Ireland while hiding behind "well maybe in 50 years"
blanch152 wrote: » IF only it was so simple. That is the problem with the exclusionary nationalists and the extreme unionists, they only see things in black and white. Sometimes they have more in common than they realise.
blanch152 wrote: » https://www.finegael.ie/speech-of-the-tanaiste-leo-varadkar-at-the-opening-of-the-2021-fine-gael-ard-fheis/ Found a copy of Varadkar's speech so that the exclusionary nationalists can read it.... "We know the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed. That is not a 21st century vision. Our vision should be different. It should be one that has the best chance of carrying the greatest number of people with us, North and South. It should appeal in particular to that middle ground I spoke about earlier, to gain the support of people who identify as both British and Irish. So, Unification must not be the annexation of Northern Ireland. It means something more, a new state designed together, a new constitution and one that reflects the diversity of a bi-national or multi-national state in which almost a million people are British. Like the New South Africa, a rainbow nation, not just orange and green. We have to be willing to consider all that we’d be willing to change – new titles, shared symbols, how devolution in the North would fit into the new arrangements, a new Senate to strengthen the representation of minorities, the role and status of our languages, a new and closer relationship with the United Kingdom. We also need to map out how we can take the best of both jurisdictions and apply them across Ireland as a whole, perhaps our welfare and pensions system, their NHS to give just two examples. And also what might remain different, because unification is not assimilation, for example, perhaps education or maintaining two legal systems. Until these questions are answered, until we have a clear proposition to put to the people on both parts of our island, then a border poll is premature." I am not convinced that we are ready or even mature enough as a society to have this conversation, but I will listen with interest. It is certainly far far different from the type of conversation that SF wants. Incidentally, he also repeats the notion of the third category of Northern Irelanders, a concept that so many on here fear so much that they deny its existence.
FrancieBrady wrote: » So go ahead Leo...you are in the government...make your proposal. Would be my answer to him. SF have. FF and FG's turn to make a better one, if they are serious about wanting a UI.
guy2231 wrote: » You are partitionist because we can easily tell your true beliefs.
guy2231 wrote: » You are spouting the usual guff from in the closet partitionists, "I don't want a United Ireland but you never know in 50 years I might.
guy2231 wrote: » Partitionists like yourself know that being a partitionist is unpopular so you, just like the partitionists of the last 100 years are constantly advocating against a United Ireland using the usual lines like "maybe in 50 years" to somehow justify your beliefs.
guy2231 wrote: » It's all just guff to appease the electorate, they couldn't care less the only thing they care about is keeping their positions of power.
ineedeuro wrote: » Nobody is serious about a United Ireland, not even Sinn Fein. It is just bluster to keep the fan happy. If someone turned around tomorrow and told Sinn fein a United Ireland was about to happen they would run a mile because they haven't a clue where to start. None of the parties do.
FrancieBrady wrote: » So you think he is spoofing. I'm prepared to give him time and the benefit of the doubt.
ineedeuro wrote: » They are all spoofing. Ask Sinn Fein a simple question and then clam up as well. What the Nordie one who was on Late Late recently? didn't even know what flag would be used. Basic stuff. Imagine if Tubs was actually a decent host and had some proper questions to ask, it would have been a disaster. Replace her with any other politician and ask the same question and you will have the same bumbling answers. They haven't a breeze. Neither do any of the so called "republican's" by the way. Throwing insults at people is about all I can see them do.
FrancieBrady wrote: » SF have produced detailed views and reports on the matter. You may no agree with them, but you cannot say they haven't a breeze. Let FG now come up with their proposal. *I didn't see the interview but I think SF's view on the flag is that it needs to be discussed and other views need to be heard before a decision is made on it.
ineedeuro wrote: » Sinn Fein have provided diddly squat from what I seen. The one document I seen they could have produced down the pub on a Friday night. Unless I missed one? if you could provide?
I couldn't care which party comes up with a proposal, it probably shouldn't be a party but an official body or 3rd party. It should cover everything and should also be created in conjunction with the UK government/Irish Government and NI Assembly.
FrancieBrady wrote: » QED, you don't agree with it. That's your right. You have one vote like me. Let's see FG's one now, Leo did say the same as yourself re SF. If he can see fault, then let's see how he proposes to do better. Personally I believe a proposal will come from an amalgam of all the ideas of the political parties and bodies supporting a UI. Come a border poll, the government of Ireland will be making the referendum proposal to the Irish people. I presume this will take the form of a White Paper as was the case in the Scottish Referendum. The British have committed to remain neutral as a government so won't be taking a side, pre the vote. The implementation of a UI should a vote be successful will be a joint effort though. They have committed to 'bring into effect the wishes of the people'
ineedeuro wrote: » At least we agree none of the parties have a breeze
Hamsterchops wrote: » What's this business about telling (not asking) the people of Northern Ireland what Nationality they are? Interesting phenomon in recent years, like a massive tussle for hearts & minds, You are Irish, no we're not, oh yes you are, oh no ....... OK then, we're Northern Irish, oh no you're not, you're all Irish, but I have a British passport, doesn't matter, you're Irish and that's that Like why are we telling them what they are?
FrancieBrady wrote: » Can you believe it that the DUP..(Foster and Gavin Robinson etc who never signed up to the GFA) are calling out Varadkar for breaking it because he expressed our constitutional aim to a UI and a legitimate right in the GFA. Unbelievable.
blanch152 wrote: » Have Sinn Fein produced detailed views and reports on the matter? I do recall that they trumpeted a heap of thoroughly debunked sh!te from a so-called independent think-tank that they initially denied was funded from Friends of Sinn Fein. Is that the report you mean?
FrancieBrady wrote: » I am referring to many comments and opinions and reports from them. They are a political party attempting to persuade...you can believe what they say or debunk it. FF's Unity Unit are working towards finding a consensus and I presume a plan proposal if a Border Poll is called. FG's turn now, let's see their proposal or as others here have said, Varadkar is spoofing...dare I say...again.
ittakestwo wrote: » It is funny how unionists are very homophobic/transphobic. You would think they would have a lot empathy with people who identify in some would say they're factually not. Despite being from Ireland I am not Irish, but British should have empathy with a person who says despite being male I am a woman.
blanch152 wrote: » They mustn't have had much effect, because most of us seem to have missed this invaluable reading. Unless, of course, it was flushed away.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Maybe Leo realised the game is up on the subvention scary 10/12/13 billions blanch? Decided to do a volte face as he did on SSM? That's what I reckon has happened, he knows the tide is turning and being a master of jumping on band wagons, he is now on board.
jh79 wrote: » None of the parties have put forward a proposal really. Richmond's and O Callaghan's papers had no substance to them at all. SF haven't put anything out as far as I know. The Hubner paper isn't a proposal really just a prediction of benefits assuming the Republic bears all costs without any detail on how we fund it. Not surprised with either FF/FG as it's not a priority for them but SF really should be doing more. Tactically I think it's a bad move by SF to be shying away from discussing the cost. The figures will be scary, surely it's better to shock people now and give them time to get used to it then leaving it closer to the poll?
ineedeuro wrote: » So they have provided diddly squat. Thanks for confirming. All parties are spoofing as I said already.
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