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The Irish protocol.

downcow

The protocol will be challenged next week in the british high courts.
I am interested in what you guys believe is an appropriate way forward if it is declared illegal, as I have a haunch it will.
Is it appropriate to continue down an illegal road or will it be time for a rethink?

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bilbot79

briany wrote: »

The average Conservative voter does not care that there are some extra checks in the Irish Sea. They just want their Brexit, so the failure for Johnson in enacting the protocol would just be one in his own mind, not maximising the potential for jingoism and brinkmanship.

I think he began this process with the same mindset as the average English person i.e. what's Northern Ireland? Do we own that?

I honestly don't think the protocol is a threat to UK territorial integrity. I know there is a lot of bluster about a united Ireland but the protocol gives such advantages to NI that they would be mad to abandon it in favour of unity anyway

Peregrinus

downcow wrote: »

Good to see labour starting to catch on. https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1404398541984960517?s=21

Starmer is making the same mistake that other critics of the Protocol are making; he's not suggesting any alternative arrangements likely to be capable of being agreed with the EU. Which, given that any change is going to require the agreement of the EU, is pretty much an entry condition for being a serious participant in this discussion.

Bilbot suggests that "the clear message from Keir there is that Boris is a complete idiot and the only escape route is that the UK should stay in the customs union per Theresa May's deal." But — no offence — that's not the clear message at all. What Starmer is saying here is exactly what other people who are known to be violently opposed to closer alignment with the EU are also saying. If Starmer does think that the solution here is closer alignment with the EU he needs to say so. It won't be clear unless he does.

It may be that Starmer does think this but chooses not to say so because he thinks that criticising Johnson's Brexit will cost him support in the polls. To which the obvious rejoinder is: how is the policy of not criticising Johnson's Brexit working out for him, support-in-the-polls-wise?

One way or another, Starmer at the moment seems to be to be just one more in long line of British politicians who are subordinating the welfare, stabilityy and peace of Northern Ireland to a desire of securing political advantage in England. The hard Brexiters have consistently pushed forward Brexit on this basis. The whole affair is shameful, and nobody should be more ashamed that hard Brexit's useful idiot enablers in Northern Ireland, who have betrayed the province to curry favour with a bunch of English nationalists who basically despise them.

downcow

Seems we may be heading for regular loyalist protest parades in Dublin as the feeling is Roi are burying their head in the sand.
I guess better some street protests in Dublin than descending into more serious violence up here

Speedline

downcow wrote: »

Seems we may be heading for regular loyalist protest parades in Dublin as the feeling is Roi are burying their head in the sand.
I guess better some street protests in Dublin than descending into more serious violence up here

You won't rest until the world burns, will you? And for what? It's very clear. The protocol is going nowhere.

downcow

Speedline wrote: »

You won't rest until the world burns, will you? And for what? It's very clear. The protocol is going nowhere.

We won’t rest until we get fair play and sensible compromise around checks within the U.K.
A protocol is clearly essential, but not that protocol.

Our bands will not be burning anywhere. They are highly disciplined and will no doubt use the platform of parades in Dublin to highlight the issues and to draw attention to Roi prime ministers misuse of misleading 50 year-old pictures of ira bombs to get their way.

I could guarantee our bands will not start any trouble in Dublin.

Peregrinus

downcow wrote: »

Seems we may be heading for regular loyalist protest parades in Dublin as the feeling is Roi are burying their head in the sand.
I guess better some street protests in Dublin than descending into more serious violence up here

Seriously? DUP supporters complaining about others burying their heads in the sand? Don't make me get sick into my own scorn.

Anybody genuinely concerned about the welfare of NI needs to be asking themselve serious questions about how NI found itself in the position its in, and what has to change if NI is to get out of that position. And then, informed by that analysis, they need to bring forward serious, realistic, practicable proposals that take seriously the concerns of the EU and seek to address them effectively. If they are not doing that, they are not interested in addressing NI's problems; just in stirring shît. And, however much that would suit the certified loon wing of the Tory party, NI really, really doesn't need it.

It's time for the moaners and whingers to man up, take some responsibility and start addressing the problems they are complaining about. If they are not prepared to do that then the best thing they can do for NI is to be quiet and let the grownups talk.

Peregrinus

downcow wrote: »

We won’t rest until we get fair play and sensible compromise around checks within the U.K.
A protocol is clearly essential, but not that protocol.

Our bands will not be burning anywhere. They are highly disciplined and will no doubt use the platform of parades in Dublin to highlight the issues and to draw attention to Roi prime ministers misuse of misleading 50 year-old pictures of ira bombs to get their way.

I could guarantee our bands will not start any trouble in Dublin.

Why would they even go to Dublin? Their problem is in London.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I could guarantee our bands will not start any trouble in Dublin.

The only good reason they have to come to Dublin is to deliver a heartfelt apology for supporting Brexit.

Regardless, I welcome this shower to Dublin because their main achievement will be engendering empathy in the southern population for the shit our people have been putting up with for a century in the north.

guy2231

downcow wrote: »

Seems we may be heading for regular loyalist protest parades in Dublin as the feeling is Roi are burying their head in the sand.
I guess better some street protests in Dublin than descending into more serious violence up here

Loyalist are really laughable trying to threaten violence, England are the ones who f***** you guys over and I bet by violence they mean violence against innocent catholics or a few little riots which England don't give a s*** about either.

VinLieger

downcow wrote: »

Seems we may be heading for regular loyalist protest parades in Dublin as the feeling is Roi are burying their head in the sand.
I guess better some street protests in Dublin than descending into more serious violence up here

Burying our head in the sand over what? We ie the EU signed the same deal Boris did that everyone was perfectly happy with until they weren't. Take your problems up with those who signed a deal you didn't like on your behalf.

guy2231

If anything though, loyalists really do give me a good laugh at their incoherence sometimes like when they stopped rioting out of respect for prince philip.

Street rioters from a deprived area, with strong disadvantages in housing, employment, education and social life, halted all their activities out of respect for a man from the highest echelons of European royalty, truly hilarious.

downcow

Peregrinus wrote: »

Seriously? DUP supporters complaining about others burying their heads in the sand? Don't make me get sick into my own scorn.

Anybody genuinely concerned about the welfare of NI needs to be asking themselve serious questions about how NI found itself in the position its in, and what has to change if NI is to get out of that position. And then, informed by that analysis, they need to bring forward serious, realistic, practicable proposals that take seriously the concerns of the EU and seek to address them effectively. If they are not doing that, they are not interested in addressing NI's problems; just in stirring shît. And, however much that would suit the certified loon wing of the Tory party, NI really, really doesn't need it.

It's time for the moaners and whingers to man up, take some responsibility and start addressing the problems they are complaining about. If they are not prepared to do that then the best thing they can do for NI is to be quiet and let the grownups talk.

I think you’ll find dup always was a minority view with unionists, and that has been decreasing very fast in last few months. They are in disarray. The battle against the crazy checks on Irish Sea will be taken on by grassroots unionists.

Peregrinus

downcow wrote: »

I think you’ll find dup always was a minority view with unionists, and that has been decreasing very fast in last few months. They are in disarray. The battle against the crazy checks on Irish Sea will be taken on by grassroots unionists.

If they go to Dublin to fight that battle, they are headed in the wrong direction. The enemy is in London.

downcow

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why would they even go to Dublin? Their problem is in London.

It’s very logical and simple.
1) roi have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is their capital city.
2) Eu have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is the nearest Eu city

Seems silly to protest in Belfast when their is an Eu city an hour away

FrancieBrady

Bryson with his 'could's' again.

Bryson 'could' muster 100,000 like Paisley did, but he can't, try as he might.

Bryson is looking for attention like his predecessor Willie Frazer.

Peregrinus

downcow wrote: »

It’s very logical and simple.
1) roi have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is their capital city.
2) Eu have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is the nearest Eu city

Logical, simple and false. NI is in the position it's now in because of a series of unilateral decisions take by the UK for which the UK, and only the UK, is responsible - the decisions to Brexit, to make that a hard Brexit, and to repudiate the WA it negotiated and signed that did not include the NIP. And if you can't recognise that those decisions were very much playing with the peace of Northern Ireland for the interests of hard Brexiters in the Tory party, well, I'm sorry for you.

If unionist critics of the NIP can't recognise these basic truths, then their efforts against the NIP will be fundamentally misdirected and will certain fail to achieve their object. If you don't know, or refuse to accept, why you're in the position that you're in, your chances of finding your way out are not good.

twinytwo

downcow wrote: »

It’s very logical and simple.
1) roi have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is their capital city.
2) Eu have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is the nearest Eu city

Seems silly to protest in Belfast when their is an Eu city an hour away

You try to lay blame at the Irish government for something the UK government negotiated, agreed and signed (supported all the way by the DUP).

Do you not see the irony in this?

Yet your logical conclusion is to come protest in Dublin?

PokeHerKing

downcow wrote: »

Seems we may be heading for regular loyalist protest parades in Dublin as the feeling is Roi are burying their head in the sand.
I guess better some street protests in Dublin than descending into more serious violence up here

I remember the last time yous tried that, I'm sure you'll get the same welcome.

guy2231

twinytwo wrote: »

You try to lay blame at the Irish government for something the UK government negotiated, agreed and signed (supported all the way by the DUP).

Do you not see the irony in this?

Yet your logical conclusion is to come protest in Dublin?

I cannot understand it at all, I can only put it down to brainwashing and a deep hatred of Ireland.

guy2231

PokeHerKing wrote: »

I remember the last time yous tried that, I'm sure you'll get the same welcome.

The last one went very well

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6of8lYhFxpo

ArthurDayne

downcow wrote: »

It’s very logical and simple.
1) roi have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is their capital city.
2) Eu have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is the nearest Eu city

Seems silly to protest in Belfast when their is an Eu city an hour away

Yes, the ROI and EU having been the architects of Brexit.

guy2231

downcow wrote: »

It’s very logical and simple.
1) roi have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is their capital city.
2) Eu have played with our peace for their own interests with the protocol and Dublin is the nearest Eu city

Seems silly to protest in Belfast when their is an Eu city an hour away

Downcow can you please explain to us why when England f***** you guys over majorly that you want to go protest against it in Dublin?

[Deleted User]

The decision to protest in Dublin will inevitably mean violence, but that's what these people want.
Many northern protestants have a very different attitude to violence than most southerners. The fact that their UK government agreed the Protocol doesn't matter to them either, they'd like a ruck against people from the Free State. It is outlandish to people in Dublin, but it makes perfect sense to loyalists.

There's no winning this one for unionism. Best case scenario, the protocol is abolished. Then there will have to be checks at the border, which further alienates nationalism at a time when Catholic support for the union is needed to make it last.
There's no downside to Brexit for SF as it turns out, even if there was a hard border it'd be railed against by millions on the island of Ireland, it'd galvanise their support.

FrancieBrady

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The decision to protest in Dublin will inevitably mean violence, but that's what these people want.
Many northern protestants have a very different attitude to violence than most southerners. The fact that their UK government agreed the Protocol doesn't matter to them either, they'd like a ruck against people from the Free State. It is outlandish to people in Dublin, but it makes perfect sense to loyalists.

There's no winning this one for unionism. Best case scenario, the protocol is abolished. Then there will have to be checks at the border, which further alienates nationalism at a time when Catholic support for the union is needed to make it last.
There's no downside to Brexit for SF as it turns out, even if there was a hard border it'd be railed against by millions on the island of Ireland, it'd galvanise their support.

Bryson may be stupid enough to follow through on his attention seeking here. But I don't think he is that stupid.

The fact is moderate Unionism is not concerned enough about the Protocol to engage in potential violence. Bryson knows if he follows through that the 'protest' would be as pathetic as the ones in Belfast...teenagers encouraged to wreck their own areas essentially and fabricated threats from Poots.
It would qickly show that Unionism as a body is not overly concerned and has just taken yet another body blow to it's belief that the UK cares about them.
I deal with businesses in the north most days and I have yet to hear anyone complain about the Protocol. It's primarily belligerent bluster.

Seth Brundle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I deal with businesses in the north most days and I have yet to hear anyone complain about the Protocol. It's primarily belligerent bluster.

But you're obviously only dealing with one aspect of trade.
Unlike Poots and the DUP, you're failing to acknowledge the concerns of drug dealers and criminals who are facing tougher obstacles to their business.

Fionn1952

I'd have a few firm predictions if any sort of protests go ahead in Dublin.

1) The protesters will primarily be disillusioned youths who barely have a notion what they're protesting about apart from on the most superficial level, and for whom going down for a ruck with those pesky Irish is the closest thing to a day out they'll have had in donkeys. There will be a handful of the usual suspects orchestrating things who'll keep their own hands clean while encouraging much.

2) Not one person at the protest will be able to offer an alternative to the Protocol that doesn't involve British exceptionalism or undermining the pillars of the EU.....No one will have the cop on to realise that Brexit is the problem, but rather will harp on about how Brexit was the will of the people....ignoring the fact that applying the same standards gives as much legitimacy to the very Protocol they're protesting against.

3) It will devolve into attempted vandalism and rioting, which will subsequently have all sorts of attempts passed to blame it on the locals, no matter how much that flies in the face of facts.

4) Any consequences experienced by those involved will just be fed into the usual victim complex, and we'll see a reinforced narrative of how Ireland is a, 'cold house for Unionists' because some rioting youths were rightly arrested.

5) It won't make a single difference to the NI Protocol.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

PokeHerKing

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The decision to protest in Dublin will inevitably mean violence, but that's what these people want.
Many northern protestants have a very different attitude to violence than most southerners. The fact that their UK government agreed the Protocol doesn't matter to them either, they'd like a ruck against people from the Free State. It is outlandish to people in Dublin, but it makes perfect sense to loyalists.

There's no winning this one for unionism. Best case scenario, the protocol is abolished. Then there will have to be checks at the border, which further alienates nationalism at a time when Catholic support for the union is needed to make it last.
There's no downside to Brexit for SF as it turns out, even if there was a hard border it'd be railed against by millions on the island of Ireland, it'd galvanise their support.

DCC is currently awash with violence and lawlessness for the sake of binge drinking by a bunch children who can't handle their booze. At least violence against these degenerates trying to march in our city will have a bit of reasoning behind it.

Anyway it'll be like the love ulster crap, they won't make it off their buses before they get sent back to whatever council estate hellhole they came from.

guy2231

Downcow and the rest of the Unionists are very angry, upset and frustrated because they know that Unionism is coming to an end and will be forgotten about and will be looked back upon with deep regret and shame by the grandchildren of current unionists years after a United Ireland.

If Britain hadn't put a gun to the heads of the Irish nation by threatening "immediate and terrible war" if we didn't go along with partition which then caused a civil war in the 1920s and then another war in the late 60s which lasted 30 years, then all these current problems we have now and all the horrors of the last hundred years could have been avoided.

We need to end this sooner rather than later and only then can we truly thrive as a nation.

guy2231

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'd have a few firm predictions if any sort of protests go ahead in Dublin.

1) The protesters will primarily be disillusioned youths who barely have a notion what they're protesting about apart from on the most superficial level, and for whom going down for a ruck with those pesky Irish is the closest thing to a day out they'll have had in donkeys. There will be a handful of the usual suspects orchestrating things who'll keep their own hands clean while encouraging much.

2) Not one person at the protest will be able to offer an alternative to the Protocol that doesn't involve British exceptionalism or undermining the pillars of the EU.....No one will have the cop on to realise that Brexit is the problem, but rather will harp on about how Brexit was the will of the people....ignoring the fact that applying the same standards gives as much legitimacy to the very Protocol they're protesting against.

3) It will devolve into attempted vandalism and rioting, which will subsequently have all sorts of attempts passed to blame it on the locals, no matter how much that flies in the face of facts.

4) Any consequences experienced by those involved will just be fed into the usual victim complex, and we'll see a reinforced narrative of how Ireland is a, 'cold house for Unionists' because some rioting youths were rightly arrested.

5) It won't make a single difference to the NI Protocol.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Of course they will be disillusioned uneducated chav youths with lots of misplaced hatred.

The same kind of people who go on these marches are the same type of people who go on EDL and Britain First marches except the British government find the loyalists useful and want them around.

votecounts

Unionists signed up to this protocol and should be working to make it a success, there is no alternative.
As for this march in Dublin, I hope it does not happen and surely Gardai know it is a huge mistake to allow it happen, guaranteed attacks on Unionists as well as closing down Dublin City for the day.