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The Nevers [Joss Whedon - HBO]

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Agent Coulson wrote: »

Laura Donnelly To Star In Joss Whedon’s HBO Sci-Fi Drama Series

https://deadline.com/2019/04/laura-donnelly-lead-joss-whedons-hbo-drama-series-the-nevers-1202599997/

HBO is rounding out cast for The Nevers, its straight-to-series drama from Joss Whedon. Joining lead Laura Donnelly are Olivia Williams (Miss Austen Regrets), James Norton (Grantchester), Tom Riley (Dark Heart), Ann Skelly (Death and Nightingales), Ben Chaplin (The Children Act), Pip Torrens (The Crown), Zackary Momoh (Seven Seconds), Amy Manson (Torchwood), Nick Frost (Fighting With My Family), Rochelle Neil (Death in Paradise), Eleanor Tomlinson (Poldark) and Denis O’Hare (This Is Us).

Co-written by Whedon and Buffy alums Jane Espenson and Doug Petrie and directed by Whedon, The Nevers is an epic science fiction drama about a gang of Victorian women who find themselves with unusual abilities, relentless enemies, and a mission that might change the world.

https://deadline.com/2019/07/the-nevers-joss-whedons-hbo-sci-fi-drama-series-adds-12-to-cast-1202657064/

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2smiggy

CastorTroy wrote: »

To compare to another Whedon show, that opening chapter reminded me of Dollhouse.

I forgot about Dollhouse

Eliza Dushku was one of the people accusing Joss Whedon about 'misconduct' , yet she was happy to be the main star of another of his creations after Buffy ?

Odd

Penn

2smiggy wrote: »

I forgot about Dollhouse

Eliza Dushku was one of the people accusing Joss Whedon about 'misconduct' , yet she was happy to be the main star of another of his creations after Buffy ?

Odd

Not really. She didn't accuse Whedon of anything, but rather lent her support to Charisma Carpenter and others who did accuse Whedon of misconduct. She said she didn't experience it or know about it, but she supported them coming forward about it.

Whedon didn't mistreat everyone. Part of the accusations were that he had favourites and treated them well, while being abusive to others.

Brief_Lives

I just watched episode 5 & 6... excellent stuff..

gmisk

Penn wrote: »

Not really. She didn't accuse Whedon of anything, but rather lent her support to Charisma Carpenter and others who did accuse Whedon of misconduct. She said she didn't experience it or know about it, but she supported them coming forward about it.

Whedon didn't mistreat everyone. Part of the accusations were that he had favourites and treated them well, while being abusive to others.

He didn't mistreat anyone?
I thought some of the accusations definitely would fall into that category.

Penn

gmisk wrote: »

He didn't mistreat anyone?
I thought some of the accusations definitely would fall into that category.

I think you misread my post. I said he didn't mistreat everyone (eg. Eliza Dushku, probably also didn't mistreat Amy Acker, Alyson Hannigan, the women from Firefly etc considering how they worked with him repeatedly and haven't made any accusations about him).

He mistreated some very badly, but was fine with others. Charisma Carpenter said in her statement that he played favourites, and pitted people against each other.

The Phantom Pain

So I caught the first episode. The moment that 'directed by Joss Whedon' came up I cringed, and then it kept going: 'written by Joss Whedon', 'created by Joss Whedon'.

Hopefully his reputation won't tank the show before it's given a fair shake.

I remember when this concept was described as "Victorian female Batman" so it's pretty cool to see this idea come to life, that said... the tone is a bit all over the place. I think it should have been more serious but then Whedon is known for his humour. Also, it's trying really hard to make the viewer aware of its time period. Electricity! X-Ray! Hour glass! We get it. We get it.

I like the two leads so far but the villain gives me serious Drusilla vibes and not in a good way. Drusilla was more of a victim than a villain and therefore Maladey (sp?) is not that threatening. Seems she's the only one who remembers how they were touched so that's a mystery in itself.

The music is bomb. I thought I recognised the composer's name and it turns out it's the same composer from Once Upon a Time which also had good musical scores.

cdgalwegian

Caught the first episode; just out of interest. Definitely like a more light-hearted Penny Dreadful, though unevenly. It's bit of an odd mixture of grittiness and fluffiness. It has a lot going for it on top of decent actors and set pieces; plenty of intrigue set up, Worth watching the first 3 episodes at least I'd say.

The Phantom Pain

I made it to episode 6 and I'm mixed on it. Firstly, Whedon has been recycling his characters for about 20 years now:

Cute, sweet loveable red head: Penance/Willow/Kayle

Fierce, self-loathing, reluctant hero type: True/Buffy/Echo

Sociopathic nerd with a fetish: Swan/Andrew/Topher

'Nice guy' nerd who isn't actually nice and feels like a stand in for Whedon to project himself on to: August/Xander/Doyle

Tired. I would have said the detective is Paul/Mal/Angel but at least he's given a bit of a different angle by making him a

closeted homosexual

.

I liked the idea of innocent/ignorant Victorian women suddenly getting superpowers and having to slowly work their way to enlightenment but then when someone shows up and gives them all the answers it kind of loses its USP. I do like the idea that they're

changing the timeline and wonder how that will affect the present. I got serious Flash season 1 vibes, even down to the whole body hijacking.

Also, way too much lore within the first 6 episodes so I'm not surprised some here thought they had missed a few episodes. That

future sequence

, in particular, I had to keep rewinding just to understand all the random nouns. Felt forced and rushed. I think the strain of trying to tell as much story in as little episodes as possible is becoming apparent across all HBOs shows. Yes, some shows benefit from being no more than 10 episodes in a season (see basically all of CW ) but some really need more time to flesh out the lore like the Witcher, Game of Thrones and now The Nevers.

Lastly, poor Molly.

It's an awful reminder that so many working class women had very little prospects back then especially when all their worth was in whether they could bear children. Although it was hard not to think back to the ridiculous Whedon controversy regarding Black Widow and the 'monster' comment.

She just needed someone to tell her she deserved better rather than the faux BFF bitch and her fear mongering.

Brief_Lives

good thoughts...
why bother spoilers? only idiots would be reading after the last episode...

cdgalwegian

It's a bit of a mess, with all of its confusing plots and subplots, as well as the initially-disorientating-but-revelatory last episode, but overall I enjoyed it. It's got a lot of heart and imagination, so a more coherent second season could well push into pretty decent territory.

Kirby

Penn wrote: »

I think you misread my post. I said he didn't mistreat everyone (eg. Eliza Dushku, probably also didn't mistreat Amy Acker, Alyson Hannigan, the women from Firefly etc considering how they worked with him repeatedly and haven't made any accusations about him).

He mistreated some very badly, but was fine with others. Charisma Carpenter said in her statement that he played favourites, and pitted people against each other.

I've said this before but I find the vilification of him bizarre, to be honest. Slicing through all the generic waffle made on social media against him, let's list what he is accused of doing.

Firing Carpenter because she got pregnant, calling her fat, and generally making nasty comments. Pushing James Marsters against a wall once. Editing a black actor's character arc when trying to condense a 4-hour disaster into a 2-hour disaster. Asking Gadot to film a scene she didn't want to do and using a body double instead.

Like, is that it? 30 years in the business and this is what they are trying to hang him with? He sounds like any other difficult director used to getting their own way. There are a million of them but if this is the sum total of the charges against him....and I can't find any specifics about anything else.....then this is just sad. Carpenter complaining that "he was nice to other people but not to me" just comes off as juvenile whining from an actress who knows her best days are behind her and is looking for somebody to blame.

It's all so vague and lacking in substance. And then there was the notion that he wasn't allowed be on set alone with Tracthenberg which she has never elaborated on and left incredibly vague. She just threw it out there like a grenade and let people speculate.

Maybe I'm just getting older but this desire to "cancel" people and the glee that some seem to take from it makes me sad. People like Weinstein needed to be outed but this is not the same thing at all.

It seems this show is doomed because of his involvement with it.

Penn

Kirby wrote: »

I've said this before but I find the vilification of him bizarre, to be honest. Slicing through all the generic waffle made on social media against him, let's list what he is accused of doing.

Firing Carpenter because she got pregnant, calling her fat, and generally making nasty comments. Pushing James Marsters against a wall once. Editing a black actor's character arc when trying to condense a 4-hour disaster into a 2-hour disaster. Asking Gadot to film a scene she didn't want to do and using a body double instead.

Like, is that it? 30 years in the business and this is what they are trying to hang him with? He sounds like any other difficult director used to getting their own way. There are a million of them but if this is the sum total of the charges against him....and I can't find any specifics about anything else.....then this is just sad. Carpenter complaining that "he was nice to other people but not to me" just comes off as juvenile whining from an actress who knows her best days are behind her and is looking for somebody to blame.

It's all so vague and lacking in substance. And then there was the notion that he wasn't allowed be on set alone with Tracthenberg which she has never elaborated on and left incredibly vague. She just threw it out there like a grenade and let people speculate.

Maybe I'm just getting older but this desire to "cancel" people and the glee that some seem to take from it makes me sad. People like Weinstein needed to be outed but this is not the same thing at all.

It seems this show is doomed because of his involvement with it.

Obviously he didn't do anything illegal, and the majority of accusations amount to "Whedon is an arsehole", but I think it's also important not to minimise the allegations against him (not that I'm accusing you of doing so, just that there's additional context to some of the accusations than are in your post). For example, he didn't ask Gal Gadot to do the scene where Flash ends up with his face in her chest, and then shot it with a double instead. He was verbally abusive and threatened her career in order to try force her to do something she was uncomfortable with. Charisma didn't just say he was friends with some and not others, but that he created a toxic workplace by pitting them against each other.

There's also the Michelle Trachtenberg accusations (which I believe were backed up by others who worked on the show but again, no one has stated anything illegal occured). His ex-wife wrote previously that he had affairs with young actresses. A writer from some of Whedon's shows also wrote about how Whedon would intentionally bully and make female writers cry and seemed to take pleasure and laugh about doing so. If I remember right too, Sarah Michelle Gellar would barely speak to Whedon during the last season or two and had to rely on the other showrunner to keep going.

I don't think anyone is taking glee out of "cancelling" him or anything. I was a major fan of Whedon for years. But when sh*tty people suffer reasonable repercussions for their sh*tty behaviour, I can't argue with it. The fact that so many who worked on his shows have now spoken out about him I think is proof enough that he was a sh*tty person and I don't think he's been treated unfairly. He'll likely continue to work, maybe having to start again on smaller projects and work his way back up a bit and show he's being fair to those he's working with.

Kirby

Some good points but I roll my eyes when I think of that Gal Gadot issue. You aren't the director, you aren't the writer. You are an actor. Do what you are told and what you are paid for. It's not like she was being asked to do something outrageous. It was a trope. A stupid gag. Stop taking yourself so seriously.

I've gotta be honest, if I'm directing a film and an actor tries to do that I'm going to put them in their place.

The fact that so many who worked on his shows have now spoken out about him I think is proof enough

I don't. Most of the people who have "spoken out about him" haven't actually done that. They have given generic "I support all victims" or "I stand with such and such" statements that don't actually say much of anything.

Far more people have come out with "I never saw anything" or "He was always decent to me". You would think if it was a pattern that they would all come out with their own stories. But most of them haven't.

The ones that have all had axes to grind. Carpenter was fired and has done nothing but b parts and softcore porn since. Ray Fisher had his role reduced in a blockbuster and cried racism.

Maybe he's a prick and a bad husband that that isn't enough to ruin a persons career.

He'll likely continue to work

He'll never work again.

FunLover18

Kirby wrote: »

Some good points but I roll my eyes when I think of that Gal Gadot issue. You aren't the director, you aren't the writer. You are an actor. Do what you are told and what you are paid for. It's not like she was being asked to do something outrageous. It was a trope. A stupid gag. Stop taking yourself so seriously.

I've gotta be honest, if I'm directing a film and an actor tries to do that I'm going to put them in their place.

I don't. Most of the people who have "spoken out about him" haven't actually done that. They have given generic "I support all victims" or "I stand with such and such" statements that don't actually say much of anything.

Far more people have come out with "I never saw anything" or "He was always decent to me". You would think if it was a pattern that they would all come out with their own stories. But most of them haven't.

The ones that have all had axes to grind. Carpenter was fired and has done nothing but b parts and softcore porn since. Ray Fisher had his role reduced in a blockbuster and cried racism.

Maybe he's a prick and a bad husband that that isn't enough to ruin a persons career.

He'll never work again.

Like you said it was a stupid gag in what you yourself called a terrible film. But somehow Gadot is the person you roll your eyes at even though Whedon is the one who threw a hissy fit when she wouldn't do it. The troubled genius director schtick has had it's day, there are plenty of directors who manage to make films without being complete bellends.

Kirby

FunLover18 wrote: »

Like you said it was a stupid gag in what you yourself called a terrible film. But somehow Gadot is the person you roll your eyes at even though Whedon is the one who threw a hissy fit when she wouldn't do it. The troubled genius director schtick has had it's day, there are plenty of directors who manage to make films without being complete bellends.

Yes, I roll my eyes at her. The director is responsible for the film. You give the performance you are told. That's your job. If you don't like it as an actor, quit.

"No, I wont do it! I'll be in my trailer!" is primadonna behavior I have no time for and I would have let it known that she either do her job, or hand back the 30 million she is being paid.

FunLover18

Kirby wrote: »

Yes, I roll my eyes at her. The director is responsible for the film. You give the performance you are told. That's your job. If you don't like it as an actor, quit.

"No, I wont do it! I'll be in my trailer!" is primadonna behavior I have no time for and I would have let it known that she either do her job, or hand back the 30 million she is being paid.

She's Wonder Woman, she has far more clout than a director called in to finish someone else's film. Not only that but she has every right not to film a scene that involves someone else planting their faces in her tits for a stupid gag that has no impact on story or character. If you think you or anyone would or should be allowed fire the star of a major billion dollar franchise because she won't shoot a boob gag, you're scarily deluded.

This topic is also better suited to this thread where it has already been discussed. http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057795023

Penn

Kirby wrote: »

Yes, I roll my eyes at her. The director is responsible for the film. You give the performance you are told. That's your job. If you don't like it as an actor, quit.

"No, I wont do it! I'll be in my trailer!" is primadonna behavior I have no time for and I would have let it known that she either do her job, or hand back the 30 million she is being paid.

You may have a point if the scene or lines in question were somehow integral to the plot, known when she agreed to sign on for the film and didn't make her character look stupid. As much as directors are responsible for the movie, actors are also responsible for the portrayal of their characters, especially when that portrayal extends beyond that one movie and different directors.

But Whedon threw a hissyfit and threatened her career and the idea of a Wonder Woman sequel for a really stupid, juvenile joke that added nothing. Whedon was by far the primadonna in the situation. He had a similar scene in Age of Ultron, but at the very least there was a romantic storyline between Bruce and Natasha. This added nothing and imo took away from Wonder Woman as a character.

The director is ultimately responsible for the film, but that doesn't entitle them to be arseholes or to force actors to do whatever they want. If Whedon decided there should be a scene of WW showering, should Gadot have been forced to do it (even if no nudity would be shown, but Gadot would have to be nude on set to film it)? What about if it was a dangerous stunt and Gadot didn't want to do it as she didn't feel safe and wanted a trained and experienced stunt double to do it? Should Gadot have been forced to do it anyway?

If not, then we can agree that there is and has to be agency for the actors to refuse to do certain things. She didn't want to film a scene, for various and imo justifiable reasons, where Ezra Miller stuck his face in her chest. And Whedon threatened to make her whole career miserable.

Whedon was completely in the wrong and I think it absolutely adds to the accusations against him.

cdgalwegian

re Whedon's antics and backlash-

FunLover18 wrote: »

This topic is also better suited to this thread where it has already been discussed. http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057795023

I was gonna ask if anyone knew where the title 'The Nevers' came from, but good 'ol Wikipedia had the answer-

Whedon explained the title at Comic-Con 2018:

They, themselves are not called that I]The Nevers[/I in the show. It's a phrase that's meant to evoke a sort of reaction to their oddity, to what is considered unnatural. The idea that you should never be like this, you should never have existed. Something is not the way it should be, and you don't have the right to have whatever weird power or ability that you have. And that idea, that some people are not of the natural order, is fascinating to me. I don't agree with it. But to me, it's one of those things where you take something negative, and you wear it as a badge of honor, basically. Certain things could never happen - they're happening. And the people they're happening to are taking their place in the world.[18]

Also, this first series contains two 6-episodes halves. I think they're still filming the second half of the first series.

Kirby

FunLover18 wrote: »

If you think you or anyone would or should be allowed fire the star of a major billion dollar franchise because she won't shoot a boob gag, you're scarily deluded.

There is another thread for this, yes, but I didn't bring it up. Somebody else did. And I feel I need to respond this quoted bit.

The director is in charge. Not the actor. You don't sack her because "she wont do a boob gag". You sack her for not doing what she is told.

Transformers. 5 Billion dollar franchise. Michael Bay told Fox to get a tan and put on some weight. She said no. He sacked her.

So if you don't think this has happened before, who is the deluded one?

I'll leave it there.

FunLover18

Kirby wrote: »

There is another thread for this, yes, but I didn't bring it up. Somebody else did. And I feel I need to respond this quoted bit.

The director is in charge. Not the actor. You don't sack her because "she wont do a boob gag". You sack her for not doing what she is told.

Transformers. 5 Billion dollar franchise. Michael Bay told Fox to get a tan and put on some weight. She said no. He sacked her.

So if you don't think this has happened before, who is the deluded one?

I'll leave it there.

Megan Fox was fired because she compared Bay to Hitler in an interview after the film was released. And it was Spielberg's decision as one of the executive producers, not Bay's.

CastorTroy

Seems production has only begun on Season 1B and due to air in 2022.

https://tvline.com/2021/06/28/fantasy-island-reboot-fox-promo-dave-odette-annable/

Season 1B of HBO’s The Nevers will air in 2022, The Wrap reports. Production began Tuesday, with Philippa Goslett continuing as showrunner.

Agent Coulson

Cancelled and all episodes pulled from HBO max.

CastorTroy

Yep and the second part of the season never even aired.

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119991418#Comment_119991418

It wasn't even filmed, was it?

CastorTroy

Yep. From reports it seems it's ready to go and just hasn't aired yet. Since going by my earlier post, it started production June 2021 with plans to air this year.

https://tvline.com/2022/12/12/the-nevers-cancelled-season-2-hbo-max-joss-whedon/

FunLover18

Ah sorry, missed your earlier post

CastorTroy

You can be forgiven since it was over a year old and I forgot about it until I scrolled up and saw it. 😀

CastorTroy

We may get the final episodes as soon as next month. Maybe.

https://tvline.com/2023/01/31/cancelled-westworld-the-nevers-streaming-roku-tubi-release-dates/

They really like that picture. Would nearly think it was Kryten Ritter.

Galwayguy35

You would think when they had the episodes already made they would have shown them.

Strange decision.

fritzelly

Rest of season out today