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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Continued on from previous threads. Title can be decided if we get better suggestions than the placeholder. We may run a poll.

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Buer

Ross Byrne is not a better passer than Billy Burns. His passing has come along a lot but he's not as good as Burns who is able to pass flat on the gain line and bring centres into the game. Byrne passes it out the back far too deep. A well organised rush defence is going to hurt Leinster behind the gain line which we've seen in the biggest games.

Neither are ever going to be top tier test players. They both have significant limitations in their games which we've seen plenty of times at this point.

Paul Smeenus

VANG1 wrote: »

He’s certainly a better line kicker and cross field kicker. He’s also a better passer. Think BB is a better runner at defences. It’s not RB fault if the pack are being beaten if he can’t win us the game on his own. He gets a lot of unfair criticism. We’ve been spoiled with JS.

Just so I'm clear, RB gets unfair criticism, because he's stuck behind the lowly Leinster pack, compared to Billy Burns, behind the mighty Ulster pack.

I really, really don't think that's the case.

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

Never have to stick a flanker out on the 10 channel when Ross byrne is there....

aloooof wrote: »

He's certainly better defensively too, and the closest we've had to Sexton in that regard.

Granted he's better in defence too, as he should be seen as he has about 4 inches on him. But Burns is far from a weak defender.

Anyway, we're not picking our 10s based on their defence. It would be quite far down the priority list in terms of attributes for a 10.

If you stuck Burns in the Leinster team Byrne plays in, I personally think Burns would be widely regarded as the better 10. And this is coming from a Leinster fan.

I think Ross Byrne's goal kicking papers over some huge cracks in his game.

VANG1

He’s certainly a better line kicker and cross field kicker. He’s also a better passer. Think BB is a better runner at defences. It’s not RB fault if the pack are being beaten if he can’t win us the game on his own. He gets a lot of unfair criticism. We’ve been spoiled with JS.

aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

The only thing Ross Byrne has over Burns is goal kicking. Burns is a better fly half in every other aspect.

He's certainly better defensively too, and the closest we've had to Sexton in that regard.

sydthebeat

TRC10 wrote: »

The only thing Ross Byrne has over Burns is goal kicking. Burns is a better fly half in every other aspect.

Never have to stick a flanker out on the 10 channel when Ross byrne is there....

TRC10

Must love hardship wrote: »

I think Nucifora, Farrell and Catt are out their depth.

Farrell only wanted 2 games so he can run off and be number 2 on the lions. A third test was an option and should have been played for player progression and TV revenue.

Nucifora renewed 3 players on central contracts who didn't make the lions and are now effectively on holidays for the summer.

The outhalf decision is baffling. Billy burns has proved himself consistently at int and Club level not to be the required int standard but still gets picked. Harry byrne gets selected but at the expense of Ross byrne who while I agree is not spectacular but the safest option available off the bench and can cover 12 at a push. Especially with carberrys injury profile..
Farrell said it was a selction decision and not his ankle..

Billy burns kicking from the ground or from hand is not at int standard.

The only thing Ross Byrne has over Burns is goal kicking. Burns is a better fly half in every other aspect.

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

If there was a game against England tomorrow, what 2nd rock pairing would you prefer..

Molony and Wycherley

or Treadwell and Kleyn

If we were playing England tomorrow we'd be screwed with either pairing. All of them are behind Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Baird and most likely Dillane. You're complaining about who we are looking at as 3rd or 4th choice in nothing games against poor opposition. It doesn't really matter.

Must love hardship

I think Nucifora, Farrell and Catt are out their depth.

Farrell only wanted 2 games so he can run off and be number 2 on the lions. A third test was an option and should have been played for player progression and TV revenue.

Nucifora renewed 3 players on central contracts who didn't make the lions and are now effectively on holidays for the summer.

The outhalf decision is baffling. Billy burns has proved himself consistently at int and Club level not to be the required int standard but still gets picked. Harry byrne gets selected but at the expense of Ross byrne who while I agree is not spectacular but the safest option available off the bench and can cover 12 at a push. Especially with carberrys injury profile..
Farrell said it was a selction decision and not his ankle..

Billy burns kicking from the ground or from hand is not at int standard.

Lost Ormond

Dubinusa wrote: »

Just realized that Treadwell wasn't selected! I think Farrell is making a mistake. I rate him above Molony and Wycherly, both of whom are small locks. By small, I mean weight and bulk.
Is there any update for an autumn schedule? It's probably around then that attendances will be full. Would be great to have S.A come up for a match!

The autumn games were confirmed a few weeks back
We play New Zealand, Maona Pasifka and Japan

I certainly wouldnt call Molony small. He's 6'6 and 112kg. Weight isnt an issue.

Dubinusa

Just realized that Treadwell wasn't selected! I think Farrell is making a mistake. I rate him above Molony and Wycherly, both of whom are small locks. By small, I mean weight and bulk.
Is there any update for an autumn schedule? It's probably around then that attendances will be full. Would be great to have S.A come up for a match!

Dubinusa

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Picking a bigger squad so he and other coaches can get better look at some players i guess.
I think Dooley is european standard and would be that all time if playing elsewhere and not behind Healy....
If going on age Treadwell/Thornbery are older/about same age as Molony so not exactly right options if going on about picking younger options

You are gobsmacked by Dooley but then pick him to start the games....
Who instead of him would you have picked then?

Very surprised indeed! But, fcuk it. Give him a run against the blossoms! The experience may propel him into a viable role! I do rate him above EB. But, tbh. I would prefer Cronin or EOS.

Former Former Former

I think Addison is more likely to be involved in national squads if he stays fit. Haley isn't quite at that level IMO.

TRC10

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Not a lot of love for Addison I think he might be exactly what Ireland need, runs brilliant lines like Keenan but had a bit more strength im looking forward too seeing him and have a feeling it won't be his last cap, a perfect candidate for the 23 shirt for the future.

Addisons ability isn't and has never been the issue. He's a cracking player. Jusy horrifically injury prone. Add to that the fact he's 29, and it starts to make more sense investing in Haley who has had a good season and is ever present and reliable for Munster. Addison is a luxury player for Ulster.

[Deleted User]

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Not a lot of love for Addison I think he might be exactly what Ireland need, runs brilliant lines like Keenan but had a bit more strength im looking forward too seeing him and have a feeling it won't be his last cap, a perfect candidate for the 23 shirt for the future.

Always thought the same but he can't stay fit

Thrashssacre

Not a lot of love for Addison I think he might be exactly what Ireland need, runs brilliant lines like Keenan but had a bit more strength im looking forward too seeing him and have a feeling it won't be his last cap, a perfect candidate for the 23 shirt for the future.

TomsOnTheRoof

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ahead of Conway and Addison at 15, yes I agree.

Including larmour in with those three though makes no sense whatsoever.

If Larmour is purely seen as a winger then fair enough. The last couple of tests would suggest this. However, Addison has struggled massively with his fitness over the past few seasons and it wouldn't surprise me to see Larmour cover 15 or even start there. I don't think Farrell knows who his backup for Keenan is and I'd hazard a guess that Larmour is still viewed as a viable option there. If that's the case then I think Haley can feel hard done by. Having said that if he's purely viewed as a winger then the selection is fair enough.

sprucemoose

TheG0AT wrote: »

Tom Court was drafted in as a replacement, who was in the vicinity of the tour, and they didn't want to fly someone half way across the world for a glorified friendly in mid week.

Same happened with a scottish scrum half who was covering a lions tour and when couple of scrum halves got injured he was asked if he hd bpoots and could join the squad. Mike Blair i believe.

Comparing Tom Court's Lions experience to Bundi Aki, who was selected in the initial squad for this tour only highlights your own ignorance and stupidity.

first of all......relax

my point (which had more than a bit of sarcasm) was that being a lion isnt necessarily a guarantee of quality (it usually is in fairness, but i was just making a humorous point in reply to your, imo anyway, over-zealous defence of Aki). either way, aki is probably third choice for ireland when all options are fit and in decent form, for me farrell should be ahead of him in the pecking order but AF doesnt tend to agree and thats what matters i suppose

and it was andy nicol that was called up in 2001 for the final test as he was in australia at the time as part of a supporters tour. they tried ronan o gara briefly in training at 9 as an alternative but he was brought onto the bench anyway as neil jenkins was injured and ruled out. you may be getting confused with 2009 when blair was added to the squad before the tour started due to tomas o leary breaking his ankle and being ruled out.

sorry if all that correct info further highlights my ignorance and stupidity!

TRC10

If there was a game against England tomorrow, what 2nd rock pairing would you prefer..

Molony and Wycherley

or Treadwell and Kleyn

sydthebeat

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

On form I'd have Haley ahead of Conway, Addison and Larmour.

Ahead of Conway and Addison at 15, yes I agree.

Including larmour in with those three though makes no sense whatsoever.

Yeah_Right

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I'd be interested to see a bit more of Farrell at inside centre. He's massive and physical, and a good passer, but his lack of an outside break is a bit limiting at 13. I think Smith had the right idea, playing him at 12 in a few games, although I can't remember offhand which ones.

Sorry Dickie_Dick89 who is Smith? Was he one Farrell's coaches in France?

TheG0AT

sprucemoose wrote: »

tom court was a lion too........

Tom Court was drafted in as a replacement, who was in the vicinity of the tour, and they didn't want to fly someone half way across the world for a glorified friendly in mid week.

Same happened with a scottish scrum half who was covering a lions tour and when couple of scrum halves got injured he was asked if he hd bpoots and could join the squad. Mike Blair i believe.

Comparing Tom Court's Lions experience to Bundi Aki, who was selected in the initial squad for this tour only highlights your own ignorance and stupidity.

TRC10

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Picking a bigger squad so he and other coaches can get better look at some players i guess.
I think Dooley is european standard and would be that all time if playing elsewhere and not behind Healy....
If going on age Treadwell/Thornbery are older/about same age as Molony so not exactly right options if going on about picking younger options

Dooley has been behind Ed Byrne at Leinster for the last 3 years. I'm sorry but he's nowhere near Ireland standard. Having Reid or Milne there as 3rd choice would be far more productive with a view to 2 years down the line.

Regarding Molony, my point was that Treadwell, Thornbury (who is injured), and Kleyn, are all in the same age bracket and are better players.

I also think Wycherley at 6'4 is way to small too be an international lock.

sprucemoose

Bazzo wrote: »

I used to actually respond to posts about why Bundee Aki was better than random centre X in the Ireland thread, then I stopped bothering my hole when it was getting very repetitive, now I think I'll just post this:

tom court was a lion too........

Lost Ormond

TRC10 wrote: »

Pretty strange squad.

Why have such a huge squad for 2 home games? He's basically picked everyone not on the Lions tour.

Why are guys like Dooley and Molony there? They're in their late 20s and aren't European Cup standard, so why are they in an international squad. It would be much more productive to invest in younger players. I'd have had Treadwell or Thornbury or even Kleyn there over Molony.

I don't understand Farrell's love for Dave Heffernan.

John Ryan...........just, why?

Conway should be nowhere near that squad on current form.

I don't get the Shane Daly hype, he's never stood out for me in any Munster game I've seen, at least done nothing to show he's international class

I don't see the point in investing in Addison as he's 29 and injured 90% of the time.

Good to see Timoney there, one of the most underrated players in Ireland IMO.

Although I'm delighted Healy, Sexton and Earls have been left out. I thought for a while we might actually see a 36 year old out half wheeled out against the USA.

Picking a bigger squad so he and other coaches can get better look at some players i guess.
I think Dooley is european standard and would be that all time if playing elsewhere and not behind Healy....
If going on age Treadwell/Thornbery are older/about same age as Molony so not exactly right options if going on about picking younger options

Dubinusa wrote: »

Odd selection to be sure. I was gobsmacked when I saw Dooley in the squad! But, who knows? Molony is a fringe type player who would be a good shout off the bench.
Hume was one lad I was hoping to see. I think he will be in the mix soon enough. Farrell cannot be called conservative, he could cap potentially 10 new players. Nick Timoney is vastly under rated! He won't be a regular international, but he was superb this year.
Any way for Japan
Dooley
Herring
Bealham
Dillane
Ryan
POM
Vdf
Doris
JGP
Carberry
Stockdale
Daly
Ringrose
Larmour
Keenan

Kelleher
Byrne
Ryan
Baird
Coombes
Blade
HB
Daly

You are gobsmacked by Dooley but then pick him to start the games....

Who instead of him would you have picked then?

Bazzo

I used to actually respond to posts about why Bundee Aki was better than random centre X in the Ireland thread, then I stopped bothering my hole when it was getting very repetitive, now I think I'll just post this:

Dubinusa

Odd selection to be sure. I was gobsmacked when I saw Dooley in the squad! But, who knows? Molony is a fringe type player who would be a good shout off the bench.
Hume was one lad I was hoping to see. I think he will be in the mix soon enough. Farrell cannot be called conservative, he could cap potentially 10 new players. Nick Timoney is vastly under rated! He won't be a regular international, but he was superb this year.
Any way for Japan
Dooley
Herring
Bealham
Dillane
Ryan
POM
Vdf
Doris
JGP
Carberry
Stockdale
Daly
Ringrose
Larmour
Keenan

Kelleher
Byrne
Ryan
Baird
Coombes
Blade
HB
Daly

TRC10

Pretty strange squad.

Why have such a huge squad for 2 home games? He's basically picked everyone not on the Lions tour.

Why are guys like Dooley and Molony there? They're in their late 20s and aren't European Cup standard, so why are they in an international squad. It would be much more productive to invest in younger players. I'd have had Treadwell or Thornbury or even Kleyn there over Molony.

I don't understand Farrell's love for Dave Heffernan.

John Ryan...........just, why?

Conway should be nowhere near that squad on current form.

I don't get the Shane Daly hype, he's never stood out for me in any Munster game I've seen, at least done nothing to show he's international class

I don't see the point in investing in Addison as he's 29 and injured 90% of the time.

Good to see Timoney there, one of the most underrated players in Ireland IMO.

Although I'm delighted Healy, Sexton and Earls have been left out. I thought for a while we might actually see a 36 year old out half wheeled out against the USA.

irelandrover

Former Former Former wrote: »

It's a zero sum game though. You've already got Keenan, Addison and Larmour. One of them would have to miss out to facilitate Haley.

Edit: plus Stockdale and Conway who can do a job there too

I know, i actually think he is more deserving of a place than conway, addison and stockdale this year based on form. But i undertand they all offer more versatility.

i just think he's been one of Munsters better players this year and i thought he would be in teh squad.

Richie_Rich89

Thomas Ahern is back available, isn't he? I'd like to have seen him in there, with one eye on the rugby union World Cup in France in two years' time.