nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Revoking of SACF rifles & New Legislation (thread banned users in first post)

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Semi Auto Rifles contd.

Thread banned users:

jb88

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Cass

meathstevie wrote: »

Given the success of the center fire pistol ban and the absolute non existence of gangsters with pistols since I think everything except catapults and spudguns should be banned.

tudderone

jb88 wrote: »

Panic averted time for some clarification. Was a bit worried for about 15 min

Granfathering and all this other rubbish is just what it is. There are no plans before the Oireachtas to abolish Centrefire Semi Auto rifles. END OF

Minister for Justice on Maternity leave and no plans after that with a coalition to find trouble where none yet exists.

Despite what some new honcho into the new role who wants to know from RFD's where all the intra CF Semi auto guns not sold to private individuals but held with dealers around the country are. Best of luck with that if your reading this ;-)

They dont have records of these and want them from RFD's to keep track of where everything else is, so they write a scary letter which is in fact bull**** and wont even need to get to court .

Im not worried and ive half a dozen CF semi autos. SO NOR SHOULD YOU.

Some RFDs have seen this before, its nothing but a rubbish scare tactic. All RFD's got it this time around to make sure that they can try and locate all the locations of various CF Restricted semi's and the lad who wrote this is two wet days in the job.

Once again this came from the Gardai, and yes the Gardai dont make the rules, they just enforce them, all bei it firearms policy unit.

No block, no restrictions, no grandfathering, you want a CF Semi auto rifle then apply like the rest of us...

If its like the pistols the oireachtas doesn't have anything to do with it. The minister signs a S.I. and thats the cf semi's gone, and no one in the dail is going to be hopping mad over it, quite the reverse

meathstevie

Given the success of the center fire pistol ban and the absolute non existence of gangsters with pistols since I think everything except catapults and spudguns should be banned.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

Under what legislation would they ban them?

If new legislation were enacted with the purpose of banning/prohibiting the licensing of semi-auto centrefire rifles the legislation (the new one/act) could be backdated to the date of the statement of intent the Minister made. This is what happened with pistols (C/F). The statement was made on November 18th 2008 and the legislation signed in June 2009, but anyone with a new license between November 2008 and June 2009 lost theirs (or at least would if any were issued).

And by that I mean what legislation gives them the power to go back 6 or 7 years and backdate legislation to make anything issued since September 15 unlicencable?

I'll start by saying if you want a 100% correct legal response, I'm not your man. I'm not a legal scholar, expert or even that well up on such legal matters.

Here is my take. There is nothing stopping the Government introducing retrospective legislation. The government cannot retrospectively create criminal offences but there is nothing wrong with retrospective legislation. It was done with the pistols, and it seems once a statement of intent is made/registered in the Dáil then any future legislation can retrospective apply to the date of the statement.

If you're looking for a "here it is" that I can point to, then I don't have it, because afaik it doesn't exist. IOW there is no legislation for something that can be done.

Again, a warning means jack sh1t as it's legislation that counts, not warnings.

I used the term warning, no actual warning is given. The warning is my way of explaining the Minister's statement and Commissioner's guidline update. IOW its akin to them saying "we told you so". So in that sense its apt, but you're right in that a warning (if one were issued) wouldn't count for spit.

However just to be clear:

I'M NOT SAYING THERE IS A CURRENT BAN. THERE IS NO CURRENT LEGISLATION PROHIBITING THE LICENSING OF THESE FIREARMS. (check my post history on the subject and you'll see I've said the same thing many times)

All I have ever said is exactly what is written by the Minister and Garda Commissioner (and before anyone goes off on one about the Gardaí not legislating he doesn't try to, he parrots the Minister's statement). She announced on the 18th September 2015 her intent to introduce legislation to prohibit the licensing of these firearms, and that any firearm after this date would stand revoked. The Garda Commissioner, having only took the position a few weeks before, updated the Commissioner's guidelines and repeated this warning.

I'm one of those semi-auto centrefire owners who got their gun after September 2015 so I've skin in the game here.

I understand that, and I'll repeat my previous comments:

There is no ban
There is no cap on licensing
There is no legislation to support either of the above

Hopefully that's the worst case scenario.

I don't see how it could be otherwise.

6 years and not a hint of actual legislation means it could run for at least another year (if they started working on it now) or even more, meaning they expected people to adhere to a non existent "ban" for over 7 years!

That would be very hard case to argue for in court (on the Government's side/end). The Dáil statement would be trotted out but there must be some sort of time issue that could be argued for those who licensed one during that time period.

While the onus is on the licensee to know the type of gun and license they require how are they expected to find an obscure, and very short, statement by the Minister from 6+ years ago (who is not even Minister now, nor part of the same Government).

My thoughts on the situation are this:

Buy a C/F SA rifle if you want one.
If you have one after the 18th September 2015 just be aware of the "issue" surrounding them.
Work to make sure that before legislation is discussed or possibly introduced that any grandfathering is applied to all currently licensed people, and not just those from before the date.
Learn the lessons the pistol ban thought us.
Be proactive in defending your license and sport, don't wait to be invited (remember the RFD SI that came out of the blue?)

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Yes.

Under what legislation would they ban them? And by that I mean what legislation gives them the power to go back 6 or 7 years and backdate legislation to make anything issued since September 15 unlicencable?

Anyone before that date, if any legislation were to be enacted, would be Grandfathered as they're outside the purview of any proposed legislation. Anyone after that would not be as they were "warned" by means of the Minister's statement and the reminder in the updated Garda Commissioner's Guidelines of Sept 2018.

Again, a warning means jack sh1t as it's legislation that counts, not warnings. I'm one of those semi-auto centrefire owners who got their gun after September 2015 so I've skin in the game here.

If any such legislation were to come in I'd suspect, and its only guess work, that anyone with a license after 2015 would have a decent shot at keeping their firearm due to the severe length of time between the Dáil statement and the creation/enactment of any legislation. When this happened with pistols there was about 7 months between statement and legislation, but with these we're at year number 6 and counting.

Hopefully that's the worst case scenario.

jb88

Panic averted time for some clarification. Was a bit worried for about 15 min

Granfathering and all this other rubbish is just what it is. There are no plans before the Oireachtas to abolish Centrefire Semi Auto rifles. END OF

Minister for Justice on Maternity leave and no plans after that with a coalition to find trouble where none yet exists.

Despite what some new honcho into the new role who wants to know from RFD's where all the intra CF Semi auto guns not sold to private individuals but held with dealers around the country are. Best of luck with that if your reading this ;-)

They dont have records of these and want them from RFD's to keep track of where everything else is, so they write a scary letter which is in fact bull**** and wont even need to get to court .

Im not worried and ive half a dozen CF semi autos. SO NOR SHOULD YOU.

Some RFDs have seen this before, its nothing but a rubbish scare tactic. All RFD's got it this time around to make sure that they can try and locate all the locations of various CF Restricted semi's and the lad who wrote this is two wet days in the job.

Once again this came from the Gardai, and yes the Gardai dont make the rules, they just enforce them, all bei it firearms policy unit.

No block, no restrictions, no grandfathering, you want a CF Semi auto rifle then apply like the rest of us...

Cass

mud dog wrote: »

Son can they revoke license issued after 2015 ???

Yes.

Anyone before that date, if any legislation were to be enacted, would be Grandfathered as they're outside the purview of any proposed legislation. Anyone after that would not be as they were "warned" by means of the Minister's statement and the reminder in the updated Garda Commissioner's Guidelines of Sept 2018.

If any such legislation were to come in I'd suspect, and its only guess work, that anyone with a license after 2015 would have a decent shot at keeping their firearm due to the severe length of time between the Dáil statement and the creation/enactment of any legislation. When this happened with pistols there was about 7 months between statement and legislation, but with these we're at year number 6 and counting.

Cass

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I should have said ban the licenses outright,

Yeah I get you, but the answer is still nothing. There is nothing stopping them.

but why is it that they would have had to pay compensation? Are there any rulings on ownership vs possession?

Yes.

There is a difference between licensing something to owning it (possession vs ownership). Its why back in 2015 she stopped dead after the statement because she said that she could just ban them, but after legal advice was told she would have to compensate anyone from whom she took their property off.

A poor analogy is your car. Its your property, but you need a license to drive it. The Government can ban you from driving, but cannot take your car off you.

The poor analogy comes from your car being your property and can sit in your driveway although you cannot drive/use it, whereas a firearm must be licensed simply to possess it. IOW you cannot keep it at home and simply not use it, but you can store it in an RFDs as its still your property.

Is that in any legislation? .

Is what in any legislation?

The "ghost ban" I was referring to is this "limbo" people are left in since September 2015 where they run the risk of losing their license, hence the firearm, if they chose to license a firearm outlined in the Minister's statement AFTER that date.

There is currently no legislation in place.

If not, then there isn't anything to stop the minister for making CF SA licenses issued after any day void

That is the exact intent of her statement.

mud dog

Son can they revoke license issued after 2015 ??? QUOTE=Grizzly 45;117404733]

EUCHR Article 17.1
1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary for the general interest.

ARTICLE 43 Irish constitution

1 1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

2 1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.

2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

The former being the main reason it did not become a EU wide directive in 2018,and also why they have gone the grandfathering route.

Grizzly 45

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I should have said ban the licenses outright, but why is it that they would have had to pay compensation? Are there any rulings on ownership vs possession?

Is that in any legislation? If not, then there isn't anything to stop the minister for making CF SA licenses issued after any day void

EUCHR Article 17.1
1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary for the general interest.

ARTICLE 43 Irish constitution

1 1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

2 1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.

2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

The former being the main reason it did not become a EU wide directive in 2018,and also why they have gone the grandfathering route.

Munsterlad102

Cass wrote: »

Nothing, but to ban the firearm/type would require compensation to those that own one. Ban the licensing of them and you owe nothing. Same as what happened with the pistol.

I should have said ban the licenses outright, but why is it that they would have had to pay compensation? Are there any rulings on ownership vs possession?

The 15th September is not arbitrary. It was the date the Minister made her statement back in 2015, and like with the pistol ban and the then Minister's statement on November 18th 2008, any license after that date and NOT the inaction of the legislation stand revoked.

So its actually an important date and given the time this "ghost ban" has been going on very important because almost 6 years have passed to date so if something were done about it now it would mean anyone over the last 6 years may lose their firearm.

Is that in any legislation? If not, then there isn't anything to stop the minister for making CF SA licenses issued after any day void.

Cass

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing stopping them from banning CF SA outright

Nothing, but to ban the firearm/type would require compensation to those that own one. Ban the licensing of them and you owe nothing. Same as what happened with the pistol.

and revoking all the licenses issued to date, the 15th of September date is just arbitrary.

The 15th September is not arbitrary. It was the date the Minister made her statement back in 2015, and like with the pistol ban and the then Minister's statement on November 18th 2008, any license after that date and NOT the inaction of the legislation stand revoked.

So its actually an important date and given the time this "ghost ban" has been going on very important because almost 6 years have passed to date so if something were done about it now it would mean anyone over the last 6 years may lose their firearm.

Munsterlad102

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing stopping them from banning CF SA outright and revoking all the licenses issued to date, the 15th of September date is just arbitrary.

tudderone

It was intended to stop a free for all like what happened with the cf pistols, and was left like that, hanging like the sword of Damocles over shooters heads.

Uinseann_16

Has something new happened? Because this is old news
Because it was 2017 and it was only talked about no actual legislation backing it afaik but it'll be a 2008 style ban again if it happens

mud dog

Tiercel Dave wrote: »

2015?.....

The Minister intends to legislate to introduce restrictions on
the licensing of centre-fire semi-automatic rifles, which will
include the revocatiOQ of any licenses i sued
September 2015.
This legislation is currently being drafted by the Department
of Justice. While it is currently legal for these weapons to be
imported and licensed in the State, any weapons brought
into the State that do not have a firearms license associated
with them dated prior to 18th September 2015, will be un-
licensable.

Tiercel Dave

2015?.....

mud dog

Has anyone heard of the plan to revoking of any semi auto rifle issue after 15th September 2015 ?? And a temporary cap on issuing new licences? And if true how could this be fought??

MOD NOTE
Thread moved out of Target Shooting Forum
Forum Charter
Absolutely no politics. All discussion relating to legislation, associations, infighting, reform, etc, etc, belongs in the main Shooting forum and will be moved there without warning or appeal if it shows up in here and an infraction will be marked against the relevant users.