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Revoking of SACF rifles & New Legislation (thread banned users in first post)

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This discussion was created from comments split from: Semi Auto Rifles contd.

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jb88

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mud dog

Has anyone heard of the plan to revoking of any semi auto rifle issue after 15th September 2015 ?? And a temporary cap on issuing new licences? And if true how could this be fought??

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Tiercel Dave

2015?.....

mud dog

Tiercel Dave wrote: »

2015?.....

The Minister intends to legislate to introduce restrictions on
the licensing of centre-fire semi-automatic rifles, which will
include the revocatiOQ of any licenses i sued
September 2015.
This legislation is currently being drafted by the Department
of Justice. While it is currently legal for these weapons to be
imported and licensed in the State, any weapons brought
into the State that do not have a firearms license associated
with them dated prior to 18th September 2015, will be un-
licensable.

Uinseann_16

Has something new happened? Because this is old news
Because it was 2017 and it was only talked about no actual legislation backing it afaik but it'll be a 2008 style ban again if it happens

tudderone

It was intended to stop a free for all like what happened with the cf pistols, and was left like that, hanging like the sword of Damocles over shooters heads.

Munsterlad102

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing stopping them from banning CF SA outright and revoking all the licenses issued to date, the 15th of September date is just arbitrary.

Cass

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing stopping them from banning CF SA outright

Nothing, but to ban the firearm/type would require compensation to those that own one. Ban the licensing of them and you owe nothing. Same as what happened with the pistol.

and revoking all the licenses issued to date, the 15th of September date is just arbitrary.

The 15th September is not arbitrary. It was the date the Minister made her statement back in 2015, and like with the pistol ban and the then Minister's statement on November 18th 2008, any license after that date and NOT the inaction of the legislation stand revoked.

So its actually an important date and given the time this "ghost ban" has been going on very important because almost 6 years have passed to date so if something were done about it now it would mean anyone over the last 6 years may lose their firearm.

Munsterlad102

Cass wrote: »

Nothing, but to ban the firearm/type would require compensation to those that own one. Ban the licensing of them and you owe nothing. Same as what happened with the pistol.

I should have said ban the licenses outright, but why is it that they would have had to pay compensation? Are there any rulings on ownership vs possession?

The 15th September is not arbitrary. It was the date the Minister made her statement back in 2015, and like with the pistol ban and the then Minister's statement on November 18th 2008, any license after that date and NOT the inaction of the legislation stand revoked.

So its actually an important date and given the time this "ghost ban" has been going on very important because almost 6 years have passed to date so if something were done about it now it would mean anyone over the last 6 years may lose their firearm.

Is that in any legislation? If not, then there isn't anything to stop the minister for making CF SA licenses issued after any day void.

Grizzly 45

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I should have said ban the licenses outright, but why is it that they would have had to pay compensation? Are there any rulings on ownership vs possession?

Is that in any legislation? If not, then there isn't anything to stop the minister for making CF SA licenses issued after any day void

EUCHR Article 17.1
1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary for the general interest.

ARTICLE 43 Irish constitution

1 1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

2 1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.

2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

The former being the main reason it did not become a EU wide directive in 2018,and also why they have gone the grandfathering route.

mud dog

Son can they revoke license issued after 2015 ??? QUOTE=Grizzly 45;117404733]

EUCHR Article 17.1
1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary for the general interest.

ARTICLE 43 Irish constitution

1 1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

2 1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.

2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

The former being the main reason it did not become a EU wide directive in 2018,and also why they have gone the grandfathering route.

Cass

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I should have said ban the licenses outright,

Yeah I get you, but the answer is still nothing. There is nothing stopping them.

but why is it that they would have had to pay compensation? Are there any rulings on ownership vs possession?

Yes.

There is a difference between licensing something to owning it (possession vs ownership). Its why back in 2015 she stopped dead after the statement because she said that she could just ban them, but after legal advice was told she would have to compensate anyone from whom she took their property off.

A poor analogy is your car. Its your property, but you need a license to drive it. The Government can ban you from driving, but cannot take your car off you.

The poor analogy comes from your car being your property and can sit in your driveway although you cannot drive/use it, whereas a firearm must be licensed simply to possess it. IOW you cannot keep it at home and simply not use it, but you can store it in an RFDs as its still your property.

Is that in any legislation? .

Is what in any legislation?

The "ghost ban" I was referring to is this "limbo" people are left in since September 2015 where they run the risk of losing their license, hence the firearm, if they chose to license a firearm outlined in the Minister's statement AFTER that date.

There is currently no legislation in place.

If not, then there isn't anything to stop the minister for making CF SA licenses issued after any day void

That is the exact intent of her statement.

Cass

mud dog wrote: »

Son can they revoke license issued after 2015 ???

Yes.

Anyone before that date, if any legislation were to be enacted, would be Grandfathered as they're outside the purview of any proposed legislation. Anyone after that would not be as they were "warned" by means of the Minister's statement and the reminder in the updated Garda Commissioner's Guidelines of Sept 2018.

If any such legislation were to come in I'd suspect, and its only guess work, that anyone with a license after 2015 would have a decent shot at keeping their firearm due to the severe length of time between the Dáil statement and the creation/enactment of any legislation. When this happened with pistols there was about 7 months between statement and legislation, but with these we're at year number 6 and counting.

jb88

Panic averted time for some clarification. Was a bit worried for about 15 min

Granfathering and all this other rubbish is just what it is. There are no plans before the Oireachtas to abolish Centrefire Semi Auto rifles. END OF

Minister for Justice on Maternity leave and no plans after that with a coalition to find trouble where none yet exists.

Despite what some new honcho into the new role who wants to know from RFD's where all the intra CF Semi auto guns not sold to private individuals but held with dealers around the country are. Best of luck with that if your reading this ;-)

They dont have records of these and want them from RFD's to keep track of where everything else is, so they write a scary letter which is in fact bull**** and wont even need to get to court .

Im not worried and ive half a dozen CF semi autos. SO NOR SHOULD YOU.

Some RFDs have seen this before, its nothing but a rubbish scare tactic. All RFD's got it this time around to make sure that they can try and locate all the locations of various CF Restricted semi's and the lad who wrote this is two wet days in the job.

Once again this came from the Gardai, and yes the Gardai dont make the rules, they just enforce them, all bei it firearms policy unit.

No block, no restrictions, no grandfathering, you want a CF Semi auto rifle then apply like the rest of us...

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Yes.

Under what legislation would they ban them? And by that I mean what legislation gives them the power to go back 6 or 7 years and backdate legislation to make anything issued since September 15 unlicencable?

Anyone before that date, if any legislation were to be enacted, would be Grandfathered as they're outside the purview of any proposed legislation. Anyone after that would not be as they were "warned" by means of the Minister's statement and the reminder in the updated Garda Commissioner's Guidelines of Sept 2018.

Again, a warning means jack sh1t as it's legislation that counts, not warnings. I'm one of those semi-auto centrefire owners who got their gun after September 2015 so I've skin in the game here.

If any such legislation were to come in I'd suspect, and its only guess work, that anyone with a license after 2015 would have a decent shot at keeping their firearm due to the severe length of time between the Dáil statement and the creation/enactment of any legislation. When this happened with pistols there was about 7 months between statement and legislation, but with these we're at year number 6 and counting.

Hopefully that's the worst case scenario.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

Under what legislation would they ban them?

If new legislation were enacted with the purpose of banning/prohibiting the licensing of semi-auto centrefire rifles the legislation (the new one/act) could be backdated to the date of the statement of intent the Minister made. This is what happened with pistols (C/F). The statement was made on November 18th 2008 and the legislation signed in June 2009, but anyone with a new license between November 2008 and June 2009 lost theirs (or at least would if any were issued).

And by that I mean what legislation gives them the power to go back 6 or 7 years and backdate legislation to make anything issued since September 15 unlicencable?

I'll start by saying if you want a 100% correct legal response, I'm not your man. I'm not a legal scholar, expert or even that well up on such legal matters.

Here is my take. There is nothing stopping the Government introducing retrospective legislation. The government cannot retrospectively create criminal offences but there is nothing wrong with retrospective legislation. It was done with the pistols, and it seems once a statement of intent is made/registered in the Dáil then any future legislation can retrospective apply to the date of the statement.

If you're looking for a "here it is" that I can point to, then I don't have it, because afaik it doesn't exist. IOW there is no legislation for something that can be done.

Again, a warning means jack sh1t as it's legislation that counts, not warnings.

I used the term warning, no actual warning is given. The warning is my way of explaining the Minister's statement and Commissioner's guidline update. IOW its akin to them saying "we told you so". So in that sense its apt, but you're right in that a warning (if one were issued) wouldn't count for spit.

However just to be clear:

I'M NOT SAYING THERE IS A CURRENT BAN. THERE IS NO CURRENT LEGISLATION PROHIBITING THE LICENSING OF THESE FIREARMS. (check my post history on the subject and you'll see I've said the same thing many times)

All I have ever said is exactly what is written by the Minister and Garda Commissioner (and before anyone goes off on one about the Gardaí not legislating he doesn't try to, he parrots the Minister's statement). She announced on the 18th September 2015 her intent to introduce legislation to prohibit the licensing of these firearms, and that any firearm after this date would stand revoked. The Garda Commissioner, having only took the position a few weeks before, updated the Commissioner's guidelines and repeated this warning.

I'm one of those semi-auto centrefire owners who got their gun after September 2015 so I've skin in the game here.

I understand that, and I'll repeat my previous comments:

There is no ban
There is no cap on licensing
There is no legislation to support either of the above

Hopefully that's the worst case scenario.

I don't see how it could be otherwise.

6 years and not a hint of actual legislation means it could run for at least another year (if they started working on it now) or even more, meaning they expected people to adhere to a non existent "ban" for over 7 years!

That would be very hard case to argue for in court (on the Government's side/end). The Dáil statement would be trotted out but there must be some sort of time issue that could be argued for those who licensed one during that time period.

While the onus is on the licensee to know the type of gun and license they require how are they expected to find an obscure, and very short, statement by the Minister from 6+ years ago (who is not even Minister now, nor part of the same Government).

My thoughts on the situation are this:

Buy a C/F SA rifle if you want one.
If you have one after the 18th September 2015 just be aware of the "issue" surrounding them.
Work to make sure that before legislation is discussed or possibly introduced that any grandfathering is applied to all currently licensed people, and not just those from before the date.
Learn the lessons the pistol ban thought us.
Be proactive in defending your license and sport, don't wait to be invited (remember the RFD SI that came out of the blue?)

meathstevie

Given the success of the center fire pistol ban and the absolute non existence of gangsters with pistols since I think everything except catapults and spudguns should be banned.

tudderone

jb88 wrote: »

Panic averted time for some clarification. Was a bit worried for about 15 min

Granfathering and all this other rubbish is just what it is. There are no plans before the Oireachtas to abolish Centrefire Semi Auto rifles. END OF

Minister for Justice on Maternity leave and no plans after that with a coalition to find trouble where none yet exists.

Despite what some new honcho into the new role who wants to know from RFD's where all the intra CF Semi auto guns not sold to private individuals but held with dealers around the country are. Best of luck with that if your reading this ;-)

They dont have records of these and want them from RFD's to keep track of where everything else is, so they write a scary letter which is in fact bull**** and wont even need to get to court .

Im not worried and ive half a dozen CF semi autos. SO NOR SHOULD YOU.

Some RFDs have seen this before, its nothing but a rubbish scare tactic. All RFD's got it this time around to make sure that they can try and locate all the locations of various CF Restricted semi's and the lad who wrote this is two wet days in the job.

Once again this came from the Gardai, and yes the Gardai dont make the rules, they just enforce them, all bei it firearms policy unit.

No block, no restrictions, no grandfathering, you want a CF Semi auto rifle then apply like the rest of us...

If its like the pistols the oireachtas doesn't have anything to do with it. The minister signs a S.I. and thats the cf semi's gone, and no one in the dail is going to be hopping mad over it, quite the reverse

Cass

meathstevie wrote: »

Given the success of the center fire pistol ban and the absolute non existence of gangsters with pistols since I think everything except catapults and spudguns should be banned.

Grizzly 45

Except when they get a bill for this property they are confiscating. That's why they had to grandfather the CF pistols that were pre Nov 2008 licensed.
I think they go this grandfathering route in cases like this, because if they pay compensation for these items,it might open a floodgate of other claims on different cases here in the ROI, and it becomes a precedent.

Also,they might want to look at the MARS/lever release story in the UK... It was estimated at 100k tops in compensation.The bill is now over 1.5 million apparently... Just something to keep in mind here.

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

Given the success of the center fire pistol ban and the absolute non existence of gangsters with pistols since I think everything except catapults and spudguns should be banned.

ah now...Have you seen those deadly Chinese "assault catapults" easily obtained on WISH.com.Or we just ask Herr Georg Sprave of the Slingshot channel to construct something that goes around Irish catapult legislation. We can then show them its features..:D

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

ah now...Have you seen those deadly Chinese "assault catapults" easily obtained on WISH.com.Or we just ask Herr Georg Sprave of the Slingshot channel to construct something that goes around Irish catapult legislation. We can then show them its features..:D

I read that last line his his voice chuckle and all

jb88

Cass wrote: »

If new legislation were enacted with the purpose of banning/prohibiting the licensing of semi-auto centrefire rifles the legislation (the new one/act) could be backdated to the date of the statement of intent the Minister made. This is what happened with pistols (C/F). The statement was made on November 18th 2008 and the legislation signed in June 2009, but anyone with a new license between November 2008 and June 2009 lost theirs (or at least would if any were issued).

Comparing 7 months to almost 7 years? Come on now. ???

Its not happening any time soon. If it was Id be living in every TD in the districts ear.?

When there is a distinct lack of traceability outside of private ownership, its going to be even more difficult.

Even the best RFDs are not amazing with records, thats part of the problem.
Great for selling and you purchasing firearms and ammo and thats the only side we joe public see and care about really.

jb88

tudderone wrote: »

If its like the pistols the oireachtas doesn't have anything to do with it. The minister signs a S.I. and thats the cf semi's gone, and no one in the dail is going to be hopping mad over it, quite the reverse

Its like this, eithier they have traceability over the firearms like they do now or we have something like the pistols fiasco where so many were lost in fishing accidents it became a joke.

If you were the Gardai which would you prefer, knowing where they are and who has them or that they were "lost". I think behind closed doors they learned from that.

Cass

jb88 wrote: »

Comparing 7 months to almost 7 years? Come on now. ???

You haven't read my posts. My comparison was to highlight the difficulty, and to a degree the absurdity, of such a long delay between statement and enactment of any possible legislation. Key points I made in relation to the delay were:

Cass wrote:

6 years and not a hint of actual legislation means it could run for at least another year (if they started working on it now) or even more, meaning they expected people to adhere to a non existent "ban" for over 7 years!

Cass wrote:

That would be very hard case to argue for in court (on the Government's side/end).

Cass wrote:

While the onus is on the licensee to know the type of gun and license they require how are they expected to find an obscure, and very short, statement by the Minister from 6+ years ago (who is not even Minister now, nor part of the same Government).

Cass wrote: »

If any such legislation were to come in I'd suspect, and its only guess work, that anyone with a license after 2015 would have a decent shot at keeping their firearm due to the severe length of time between the Dáil statement and the creation/enactment of any legislation. When this happened with pistols there was about 7 months between statement and legislation, but with these we're at year number 6 and counting.

jb88 wrote:

Its not happening any time soon.

Never said it was. Not once. Only discussing the possibilities or probabilities if it were to come in.

jb88 wrote:

When there is a distinct lack of traceability outside of private ownership, its going to be even more difficult.

Not sure of your point here.

Are you saying they won't know how many guns are in the country and who has them?

jb88 wrote:

Even the best RFDs are not amazing with records, thats part of the problem.

What problem? RFD and their stock is only a small part of this, its these type of firearms being owned and license by people is what they intend to address.

jb88 wrote:

Great for selling and you purchasing firearms and ammo and thats the only side we joe public see and care about really.

Record keeping is separate to the issue of these firearms being licensed, imo.

Grizzly 45

jb88 wrote: »

Its like this, either they have traceability over the firearms like they do now or we have something like the pistols fiasco where so many were lost in fishing accidents it became a joke.

If you were the Gardai which would you prefer, knowing where they are and who has them or that they were "lost". I think behind closed doors they learned from that.

In your opinion JB, could this be a precursor to pending or drawing up legislation?
Would make sense to know how much there is of anything before you try and legislate on it?

tudderone

Cass wrote: »

My comparison was to highlight the difficulty, and to a degree the absurdity, of such a long delay between statement and enactment of any possible legislation. Key points I made in relation to the delay were:

This is the Irish political class, absurdity is not that absurd here, in fact its normality.

Munsterlad102

Cass wrote: »

There is a difference between licensing something to owning it (possession vs ownership). Its why back in 2015 she stopped dead after the statement because she said that she could just ban them, but after legal advice was told she would have to compensate anyone from whom she took their property off.

Just another thought, if the minister could have effectively banned CF SA by banning licenses and revoking all the ones issued, then why didn't she?

Cass

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

..... by banning licenses and revoking all the ones issued......

Banning them and revoking them is the same thing, but i get your point.

....... then why didn't she?

She would have to pay compensation to anyone before 2015. Its a small enough amount, at a rough guess about €400,000 (max), but to be seen to pay gun owners money would not go down well, or she just doesn't want to knowing it'll die by attrition like C/F pistols over time.

Who knows?

I mean why do this at all? Simple. The then Minister wanted the headlines for "taking guns off the streets" and this was in the same time as some high profile mass casualty events, so like the pistol ban they reacted for the virtue signaling effect. I mean not one mass shooting like those in America, Norway, New Zealand, etc. in the history of the state, and with about 200 firearm owners of these types of guns what exactly are they trying to prevent?

Munsterlad102

Cass wrote: »

Banning them and revoking them is the same thing, but i get your point.

She would have to pay compensation to anyone before 2015. Its a small enough amount, at a rough guess about €400,000 (max), but to be seen to pay gun owners money would not go down well, or she just doesn't want to knowing it'll die by attrition like C/F pistols over time.

Who knows?

I mean why do this at all? Simple. The then Minister wanted the headlines for "taking guns off the streets" and this was in the same time as some high profile mass casualty events, so like the pistol ban they reacted for the virtue signaling effect. I mean not one mass shooting like those in America, Norway, New Zealand, etc. in the history of the state, and with about 200 firearm owners of these types of guns what exactly are they trying to prevent?

I’m a little bit confused about that, you said that they wouldn’t have to pay compensation if they revoked CF SA issued after 15th September 2015 but she would if there was an outright ban on licenses (not possession as you said). Surely then if she revoked licenses issued after 2015 she would have to pay compensation?

Cass

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I’m a little bit confused about that, you said that they wouldn’t have to pay compensation if they revoked CF SA issued after 15th September 2015....

Correct.

........ but she would if there was an outright ban on licenses (not possession as you said).

Outright ban meaning all SA licenses, both pre and post 2015, but only compensate those pre 2015. Anyone after 2015, not so much (iow not at all).

Surely then if she revoked licenses issued after 2015 she would have to pay compensation?

Nope.

The statement announced her intention to cap (illegal) and study the number of these firearms, but went on to say any person who licenses one of these guns after Sept 2015, that their license will stand revoked.

This goes back to what I said above about a "warning" (my words, not her). The statement made clear that if/when legislation comes in any firearm (of the type mentioned) licensed after the date would automatically be revoked. So anyone that licensed one after that date "took the risk" that it wouldn't happen, that they might be able to keep it, or whichever way you wish to label it. IOW you were "warned" not to get one, you did because the law allows it and there is no ban, but now (pretend new legislation was introduced today) there is legislation and its retrospective to the date of the Dáil statement so the license stands revoked.

It should be pointed out that the gun is still your property and while you won't be able to possess/use it you can store it to fight the matter in court or sell it on.

The key point, exactly like with centrefire pistols, is the "cut off date". Anyone licensed after the date of the statement was given notice of the intent to revoke all such licenses so anyone that acquired one after the date "ignored" the notice and hence are not entitled to compensation.

This will be, if it ever happens, the 2008/2009 pistol ban, version 2.0