TRC10 wrote: » Is he ruled out for the summer? If so, I didn't know that. Burns and Carbery then for me. If Whycherly is out then maybe take Reid along with Killer and Byrne.
bilston wrote: » I think Reid has big potential, but he isn't anywhere near this conversation at the moment. 12 months time who knows, but not yet.
TRC10 wrote: » See Porter and Ryan in 2017. It's that kind of conservatism that will leave us with 2 LHs in their mid 30s at the World Cup. Ryan was uncapped for Leinster in 2017 and Porter had played most of his rugby for UCD that season as he was converting to TH. Reid being in as 3rd choice LH for home games against tier 2 nations really isn't that wild. We badly need to fast track some of the young LHs
molloyjh wrote: » I think we can ease up on conservative talk. Since taking over Farrell has blooded plenty and will be blooding several more in these 2 games. Throwing guys in for the sake of it can easily do more harm than good. EOS getting game time will be a good thing. Whycherley being involved would be nice too, but he's played 1 A game since coming back from injury so may not be fully match fit. Fast tracking young LHs needs to happen at provincial level before international level. Reid hasn't played 17 mins in the last month.
TRC10 wrote: » Not for the sake of it. Healy and Killer are 34 and 33 respectively and will only be in decline, and that's 2 years out from a world cup. The drop off after those 2 is huge in terms of quality. We need to be future planning. Forgive me, but I genuinely don't see what 'harm' could come from Reid being in a squad and playing 20 minutes maximum vs the USA. It's not as though I'm suggesting he should be in a November test 23 or even a November squad. It's a summer series against 2 tier 2 nations with the Lions away. Have him there as 3rd choice just to give him some exposure to an international environment and maybe get some game time v the states (the weaker of the 2). We did it in 2017 in a much tougher away tour in Japan and look how Ryan and Porter burst onto the scene after that.
molloyjh wrote: » By "for the sake of it" I mean selecting a guy for reasons other than him being ready and able. Selecting a guy who isn't ready means he goes into camp not being ready, trains not being ready etc. He'd know it, the others there would know it. That doesnt do the player any good. Ryan and Porter are freak athletes and hardly the benchmark to be using for all young players. EOS should get a run out. If Reid shows he's worth a look he'll get his chance in time. Blooding players just because we haven't anyone else isn't the answer. Just look at Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. Playing them doesn't make them good enough.
TRC10 wrote: » It a different scenario with Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. They're genuinely the next best options after Sexton (with Joey out). When you say "ready" what do you mean by that? Ready to play in a high pressure 6 Nations game? Of course Reid isn't ready for that, hence why nobody is suggesting he should play in one. Would he be ready to come into a squad to be 3rd choice LH and maybe play a few minutes v the USA to get a look at him in an international environment? Yeah I'd say he probably is. Nobody is saying he should be our first choice LH. But yes, we do need to be future planning when we're on course to have two loosheads aged 36 and 35, neither of whom would get in any other tier 1 nations team, at the next RWC.
molloyjh wrote: » Okay, that's me done. I never said you were looking for him to be first choice or playing 6Ns rugby. I've made my point. You don't really want to understand it so let's just leave it there. This is the same conversation that we see here so often. Need replacement, oh look young guy over there, play him. That has never been, is not nor ever will be how rugby works. In any country, not just Ireland. If you don't want to see that then that's fine. But you're building yourself up for disappointment by setting completely unrealistic standards.
TRC10 wrote: » Unrealistic, yet it literally happened 4 years ago. Your comments about Ryan and Porter being "freak athletes" is retrospective analysis. Porter played most of his games for UCD that year and Ryan had never even played for Leinster. It's only because they went on to be great players that we look back on that tour and don't bat an eye at two lads with very little/no provincial experience being taken on tour. Eddie Jones does it all the time too. Curry and Underhill went to Argentina 4 years ago. Underhill had played a bit for Ospreys but Curry was a teenager. Why did he do it? Because Robshaw and Haskell were getting on and he knew he had to future plan. I think you're being a bit hysterical over a suggestion that really isn't that wild and has been done many times before.
OneLungDavy wrote: » Top coaches should be able to spot talent from a young age, regardless of whether they have played at a top level. I've seen very little of Reid, how has he performed recently?
molloyjh wrote: » Nobody has seen much of Reid recently. He's played 3 times for a total of 88 mins in the last 3 months. I'm not aware of him being a prodigious talent or being tipped for big things (maybe he is and I've just missed it). There is absolutely no reason that Ulster 4th choice LH should be called up to Ireland. Its mad. But then I suppose he is young so there is that....
sprucemoose wrote: » i similarly cant see why leinster's 3rd choice 10 who has barely played since the start of the season and hasnt played in europe yet is being claimed as the solution to all the irish teams problems
Richie_Rich89 wrote: » 1. Peter Dooley 2. Ronan Kelleher 3. Marty Moore 4. James Ryan 5. Gavin Thornbury 6. Josh Murphy 7. Peter O'Mahony 8. Caelan Doris 9. John Cooney 10. Joey Carbery 11. Jacob Stockdale 12. Chris Farrell 13. James Hume 14. Robert Baloucoune 15. Hugo Keenan 16. Rob Herring 17. David Kilcoyne 18. Tom O'Toole 19. Ryan Baird 20. Gavin Coombes 21. Jamison Gibson-Park 22. Jack Carty 23. Jordan Larmour Think I'd go for something along the lines of that.
molloyjh wrote: » Personally I don't think he is. At least not yet. That said, if it weren't for injury Harry Byrne would have started vs Northampton in Dec. And who knows from there. Had he gotten a decent run this season then he'd have been involved with Ireland. He's already been in camp. He's played a lot more than Reid and both guys ahead of him are currently in the Irish squad so he is getting a lot more game time as a result of that. They aren't quite the same thing. But yeah, there is definitely some of the same "oh look, young player" about Byrne too.
Dubinusa wrote: » That said, Carberry hasn't been great since returning.
TRC10 wrote: » Your comments about Ryan and Porter being "freak athletes" is retrospective analysis.
aloooof wrote: » Whatever about anything else, that's not my recollection tbh. Ryan was very much on the radar to be the first player to play for country before province since Drico a good while before that came to pass. Equally Porter's ridiculous feats in the gym were widely heard of also.
arsebiscuits1 wrote: » Absolutely. James Ryan was one of the most hyped up underage players since Luke Fitzgerald. Everyone who saw him play since he was 15 knew he was going to play for Ireland. Porter to a lesser extent than Ryan but certainly from his under 20s career there was little doubt that he was a physical anomaly who needed to be fast tracked. Not retrospective analysis at all. They were and are physical freaks and this was known by many 4 years ago
molloyjh wrote: Both of these guys are the exception, not the rule. I mean Ryan literally was an exception given you have to go back nearly 20 years to our most celebrated player before you can find a similar scenario. And if that's the standard you're going to apply then you are going to be continually disappointed. Not because of anything Irish rugby is doing wrong, but purely because you have set a standard that isn't based in reality.
eagle eye wrote: » How many times did Doris play for Leinster before he got called up? Larmour? Kelleher? Ringrose? Keenan?
sprucemoose wrote: » carbery is ian madigan mk2, fantastic player but not a 10
siltirocker wrote: » The reason Leinster were fine with him leaving according to Rob Kearney. They rated him as a 15 not 10, but he wanted to play 10.
molloyjh wrote: » .... The same for James Ryan. It was no coincidence that he was the first player to play for Ireland before his province since BOD.......
eagle eye wrote: » How many times did Doris play for Leinster before he got called up? Larmour? Kelleher? Ringrose? Keenan? Are you going to add them as exceptions too? That's a lot of exceptions in recent times.
