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What to expect from a HAP inspector report?

icarus_67

So my tenant has informed me that a HAP inspection is to be carried out in a house that I'm renting out next week.
I'm a bit worried about the outcome of the inspection because of the costs involved. I know that a letter is issued to the landlord after an inspection has taken place by the council if there are repairs needed to be carried out.

From reading online it seems that I will have to install child locks on the windows which is a bit of a pain. However there are no windows in the bathroom but there is ventilation - I'm wondering would this be an issue?
I'm just wondering what are the most important things to worry about regarding the inspector's report?

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KneonK

Hi! I think a disconnect has happened within this conversation. There are some fellows who post who have some form of delusion that HAP tenancies are treated differently to non HAP properties.

Here is the rental housing regulations. They are the same for all rented houses and every landlord should be aware of them.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/si/137/made/en/print

In other business such as restaurant business, financial businesses, transport etc there are set regulations in place and I am sure that you feel better knowing that they are followed. You would find it weird if the person running the business had no idea of the legal standards needed. It is the same for renting out a property. You need to be aware of the Standards regulations to protect yourself and your tenants.

The local authority housing inspectors inspect ALL properties to the same degree. The difference is that when there is a HAP tenancy, there is a regulation placed on the local authority that this property must be inspected within 8 months of signing. This is to ensure the local authority isn't paying money for a substandard rented house. Makes sense. Other properties are inspected based on complaints, prior knowledge etc. Then the local authority will have a system of inspection for other private rented properties, like this month we will inspect X amount of properties in this post code, or at this apartment block etc.

For the report, I wouldn't worry much about it unless you know the house is a mess, and if so you shouldn't be renting it on moral grounds.

Here are some basic things below to see what the inspector looks for:

Vents need to be in all habitable rooms, that is bedrooms and the living room. Some properties may have vents in the windows which is generally acceptable. A vent in the fireplace is not acceptable.

Window restrictors, since 2017 need to be on all windows which may be fallen out of by a child. Use common sense on this, if its one of those small windows at the top of a window frame then it probably wont need one. If its one of the windows that opens outward like a small door then it will need one. Many types are available and easily retrofit, just make sure they don't need a lock.

You need all the standard kitchen equipment there and in good working order.

If you have a gas boiler you need to get an Annex E service once a year.

You need carbon monoxide alarms if you have a fire place or gas using devices such as a gas boiler. You need one in the room with the appliance and one within 5 meters of the bedrooms. If there is a fireplace used then it will need to be swept once a year.

Make sure there is a fire blanket up on the wall near the cooker.

Every habitable room needs a heater that is affixed to the wall. This includes the Bathroom!

If there is no back garden for clothes drying then you will need to provide a clothes dryer.

General structural stuff, mould and damp is clearly indicative of problems that need to be fixed. Cracked tiles in bathroom or kitchen where someone barefoot may shred themselves on it are a problem. Badly flaking paint anywhere is the landlords responsibility too. So is maintenance of the back garden, i.e if it is badly overgrown and unusable.

handlemaster

icarus_67 wrote: »

Because it is a recently built home and no other property in the estate is subjected to the same kind of thing. It's totally fine. There's never been any mold or condensation issues etc over the years. It's really overkill. Everything else in the building regulations is totally reasonable bar the vent installation.

I don't think I'm the only landlord who thinks that the vent installation stuff is overkill. Seems to be a bit discriminatory that only landlords that are renting out to HAP tenants are subjected to this stuff in a serious way. Whereas other landlords don't have to worry at all about it(unless there is a genuine issue with air quality that the tenant is complaining about which I don't think would be that common unless the windows in the property are insufficient).

There is zero point in arguing about it . That's the HAP rules. With regards to what is valid as an expense us an accountant, that's their profession to work for you and make life less hassle.

dennyk

spaceHopper wrote: »

My father was a LL and he used to expense every operating cost against tax. Maybe talk to an accountant you could be overpaying you tax.

There were previously some tax relief schemes that allowed for deductions for upgrades and renovations to rental properties, but those are no longer around; the Countrywide Refurbishment Scheme ended in 2008 and the HRI ended as of 31 December 2018 (though some projects which received planning before that date but hadn't actually begun yet were grandfathered in for the next few months...). The only allowable expenses at this time are detailed here, and while maintenance expenses are included, capital expenses on property improvements are explicitly disallowed (unless they fell under one of the aforementioned defunct incentive schemes). Improvements such as the addition of extractor fan systems where there were none before (as opposed to repairing or replacing an existing system) would probably fall under the latter category and so wouldn't be an allowable expense.

spaceHopper

icarus_67 wrote: »

I understand what you're saying and I appreciate that you're trying to get me to cool down. It's just that I don't think these things can be deducted from my rental income you see as they are not considered renovations or repairs? They are new items that need to be installed to meet new building standards.

I'm not hiring anyone to fix or completely replace something but instead I'm installing things that are new so I don't believe I can deduct the cost of installing these from my rental income.

My father was a LL and he used to expense every operating cost against tax. Maybe talk to an accountant you could be overpaying you tax.

[Deleted User]

dennyk wrote: »

Were such expenses not accounted for in your business plan? Presumably you're taking in more in rent than you are paying out in ordinary expenses (mortgage interest, periodic repairs, listing fees, etc.), so if one or two thousand euro will cause your business to go under unless you jack up the rent an absurd amount, something has gone very wrong in the planning somewhere. Such expenses are to be expected when your business revolves around owning and renting out the use of an expensive piece of real estate that requires ongoing maintenance and repair. (And no, I'm not counting any mortgage principal payments as expenses, because they aren't expenses; those are essentially just converting cash into equity in your property. They affect cash flow, but not overall profit, and if the business's cash flow can't handle the occasional larger-than-normal expense, then like I said, something's very wrong with the original business plan...)

Doesn't sound like there was a business plan.

The whole thread reads like an extraction plan.

And now icarus_67 is aghast that they might have to supply an extraction fan.

dennyk

icarus_67 wrote: »

Well of course landlords will have to up the rent within reason under these circumstances. How else can we cover ourselves especially when these things can be so expensive?

Were such expenses not accounted for in your business plan? Presumably you're taking in more in rent than you are paying out in ordinary expenses (mortgage interest, periodic repairs, listing fees, etc.), so if one or two thousand euro will cause your business to go under unless you jack up the rent an absurd amount, something has gone very wrong in the planning somewhere. Such expenses are to be expected when your business revolves around owning and renting out the use of an expensive piece of real estate that requires ongoing maintenance and repair. (And no, I'm not counting any mortgage principal payments as expenses, because they aren't expenses; those are essentially just converting cash into equity in your property. They affect cash flow, but not overall profit, and if the business's cash flow can't handle the occasional larger-than-normal expense, then like I said, something's very wrong with the original business plan...)

Gumbo

ted1 wrote: »

Even in a airtight house? With a mechanical system

The house is 15 years old. It’s not air tight and it doesn’t have MHRV.

SteM

icarus_67 wrote: »

Because it is a recently built home and no other property in the estate is subjected to the same kind of thing. It's totally fine. There's never been any mold or condensation issues etc over the years. It's really overkill. Everything else in the building regulations is totally reasonable bar the vent installation.

I don't think I'm the only landlord who thinks that the vent installation stuff is overkill. Seems to be a bit discriminatory that only landlords that are renting out to HAP tenants are subjected to this stuff in a serious way. Whereas other landlords don't have to worry at all about it(unless there is a genuine issue with air quality that the tenant is complaining about which I don't think would be that common unless the windows in the property are insufficient).

Oh, you don't know this about every other property in the estate. If they're renting to HAP they will be and any other property being rented out could be too if the tenants called for LA inspection.

If you can't afford to spend €1000 to upgrade your property to the standard HAP require then you're in the wrong business imo.

icarus_67

SteM wrote: »

You've asked the same question multiple times and from what I've seen and you've gotten different responses from various people here. This has been going on for over 24 hours and in the mean time you've gotten worked up over something that hasn't even happened yet (as far as I can tell) opening multiple threads about it.

Why not just either wait and see the results of the report or ask your accountant who should be able to get a proper answer for you?

Yeah fair enough you're right. I think I should log off Boards and just deal with things as they come.

SteM

icarus_67 wrote: »

I understand what you're saying and I appreciate that you're trying to get me to cool down. It's just that I don't think these things can be deducted from my rental income you see as they are not considered renovations or repairs? They are new items that need to be installed to meet new building standards.

I'm not hiring anyone to fix or completely replace something but instead I'm installing things that are new so I don't believe I can deduct the cost of installing these from my rental income.

You've asked the same question multiple times and from what I've seen and you've gotten different responses from various people here. This has been going on for over 24 hours and in the mean time you've gotten worked up over something that hasn't even happened yet (as far as I can tell) opening multiple threads about it.

Why not just either wait and see the results of the report or ask your accountant who should be able to get a proper answer for you?

icarus_67

honda boi wrote: »

When we got the inspection done on the house we were renting I actually paid for what was needed.
For 2 reasons.
1. I didn't know if my landlord was even going to do any of the work and didn't know if hap would stop paying and I'd be evicted.
2. If he paid I'd say he'd up the rent a fair bit just because he had to spend money on making the property up to standard..

I was told oh landlord won't do this blah blah but now reading this thread it looks like some landlords might up the rent for having to make any changes to the property.

Well of course landlords will have to up the rent within reason under these circumstances. How else can we cover ourselves especially when these things can be so expensive?

But at the same time it's insane that you personally had to pay for this stuff. Wasn't your landlord informed of the improvements that needed to be made?

icarus_67

spaceHopper wrote: »

Icarus I think you need to calm down and wait till you see what hap say.

Electrical inspection about 600 if they suggest changes maybe a grand, you can expense this against tax.

Vents and other stuff a day of the handyman's time so 300 and materials less than 200 again you can expense it off against tax.

Window locks, not much easy to fit.

Battery powered fire and monoxide alarms 200ish.

All in all probably change of 2 grand that you can expense off against tax. Chill OK?

I understand what you're saying and I appreciate that you're trying to get me to cool down. It's just that I don't think these things can be deducted from my rental income you see as they are not considered renovations or repairs? They are new items that need to be installed to meet new building standards.

I'm not hiring anyone to fix or completely replace something but instead I'm installing things that are new so I don't believe I can deduct the cost of installing these from my rental income.

spaceHopper

Icarus I think you need to calm down and wait till you see what hap say.

Electrical inspection about 600 if they suggest changes maybe a grand, you can expense this against tax.

Vents and other stuff a day of the handyman's time so 300 and materials less than 200 again you can expense it off against tax.

Window locks, not much easy to fit.

Battery powered fire and monoxide alarms 200ish.

All in all probably change of 2 grand that you can expense off against tax. Chill OK?

honda boi

When we got the inspection done on the house we were renting I actually paid for what was needed.
For 2 reasons.
1. I didn't know if my landlord was even going to do any of the work and didn't know if hap would stop paying and I'd be evicted.
2. If he paid I'd say he'd up the rent a fair bit just because he had to spend money on making the property up to standard..

I was told oh landlord won't do this blah blah but now reading this thread it looks like some landlords might up the rent for having to make any changes to the property.

icarus_67

SteM wrote: »

I understand you don't want to have the cost to make the changes but how do you know for certain that vents are unnecessary, are you an air quality expert? You seem happy to receive HAP payment but don't seem to want to follow the rules that come with HAP rental - or at least the expensive ones because you seem okay with putting restraints on the upstairs windows which is cheap enough.

Because it is a recently built home and no other property in the estate is subjected to the same kind of thing. It's totally fine. There's never been any mold or condensation issues etc over the years. It's really overkill. Everything else in the building regulations is totally reasonable bar the vent installation.

I don't think I'm the only landlord who thinks that the vent installation stuff is overkill. Seems to be a bit discriminatory that only landlords that are renting out to HAP tenants are subjected to this stuff in a serious way. Whereas other landlords don't have to worry at all about it(unless there is a genuine issue with air quality that the tenant is complaining about which I don't think would be that common unless the windows in the property are insufficient).

SteM

I understand you don't want to have the cost to make the changes but how do you know for certain that vents are unnecessary, are you an air quality expert? You seem happy to receive HAP payment but don't seem to want to follow the rules that come with HAP rental - or at least the expensive ones because you seem okay with putting restraints on the upstairs windows which is cheap enough.

icarus_67

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I wrote a big post about it in the past but it basically boils down to, council was told it needed to have standards, the standards were created by copying the building standards at the time and the council applies it to all properties regardless of age.

For non-hap properties and pretty much everything else, the standards that are applicable are the ones from when the property was created or renovated.

This leads to stupid reports in some cases, like telling landlords they have to extract fumes directly from the hood extractor, rather then the carbon filters most apartments and modern houses use.

Do you have a link to your post by any chance? No worries if it's too much hassle to find it.

So basically if you have a HAP tenant you are being forced to install unnecessary vents etc but if it is a non HAP tenant you are not subjected to this kind of stuff. It is a bit discriminatory. The property I own was built relatively recently and was built to whatever the standards were back in the mid 2000's. Can I not argue with the relevant authority about how discriminatory it is?

Cuddlesworth

icarus_67 wrote: »

When it says " Every room used, or intended for use, by the tenant of the house as a
habitable room shall have adequate ventilation." ...isn't that open for interpretation? What is defined as "ventilation"?

I wrote a big post about it in the past but it basically boils down to, council was told it needed to have standards, the standards were created by copying the building standards at the time and the council applies it to all properties regardless of age.

For non-hap properties and pretty much everything else, the standards that are applicable are the ones from when the property was created or renovated.

This leads to stupid reports in some cases, like telling landlords they have to extract fumes directly from the hood extractor, rather then the carbon filters most apartments and modern houses use.

Mad_maxx

icarus_67 wrote: »

How much would you think it would actually cost a guy to call over to drill the holes and install the vents? Are we talking maybe 200 to 300 Euros for the job excluding the cost of the materials?

Well I got a guy with a core drill to make a hole in a bathroom in 2018, that was a bigger job as he had to avoid damaging the tiles on inside, he charged me 150 ,job took circa thirty minutes, drilling holes in walls of other rooms should be more straightforward and the more rooms ,the lower cost per hole drilled

You can shove the wavin pipe through yourself but if you want drill guy to do it, it's a thirty second job ,then screw vent ends on each side

Ace2007

icarus_67 wrote: »

I didn't mean it like that at all. I was just wondering what is actually stopping people in non-HAP properties from just ignoring the inspections. There must be some strict way of enforcing these things but I was trying to understand how. I certainly wasn't referring to myself.

Let's say they ignore them, and a tenant suffers from carbon poison, or a child falls out a window and it's discovered you as the landlord ignored the inspection report - that's probably a criminal offence, not to mention and civil case against you - and you could go from having your cake and eating it, to be potential locked up and broke because you wanted to rent out sub standard accommodation.

People talk about the negatives of REITS and Investment Funds, but when you have private landlords or are happy to turn blind eye to regulations, are we really better off without the funds?

ztoical

icarus_67 wrote: »

I didn't mean it like that at all. I was just wondering what is actually stopping people in non-HAP properties from just ignoring the inspections. There must be some strict way of enforcing these things but I was trying to understand how. I certainly wasn't referring to myself.

Its enforced the same way any laws are enforced. Majority of people will just follow it cus its the law and the handful who don't the authorities will have to follow up with through legal channels. You will always have those who don't register their tenancies, don't declare rental income, don't give back deposits, don't pay rent, cause more damage then a deposit would cover, sublet when not allowed etc etc Some get away with it (sometimes for years) and others don't, up to people to pick if they want to take the risk of being one of the ones who doesn't get away with it.

icarus_67

ztoical wrote: »

Are you serious? Of course you can ignore them but eventual they will pass it up the chain and it will come to a legal case against you. They'll have a set number of letters/calls around to property and if they fail they'll move to the next step, could take a while. What should I have done, told my tenant to not open the door? If someone wants to take that risk, same as someone driving with expired NCT, chances of getting stopped by Garda depending where you drive could be low but the risk is always there.

I didn't mean it like that at all. I was just wondering what is actually stopping people in non-HAP properties from just ignoring the inspections. There must be some strict way of enforcing these things but I was trying to understand how. I certainly wasn't referring to myself.

ztoical

icarus_67 wrote: »

Okay I understand. If the council needs to inspect non HAP properties can't the landlord just ignore their calls? How do they actually enforce it?

Are you serious? Of course you can ignore them but eventual they will pass it up the chain and it will come to a legal case against you. They'll have a set number of letters/calls around to property and if they fail they'll move to the next step, could take a while. What should I have done, told my tenant to not open the door? If someone wants to take that risk, same as someone driving with expired NCT, chances of getting stopped by Garda depending where you drive could be low but the risk is always there.

icarus_67

ztoical wrote: »

This was 2018 so childlocks might have been added after that, don't know. No longer renting out house so don't care. House was rented to single person, maybe that was a factor, again don't know or care. I wasn't there for the inspection in person, just had the report sent to me.

Council inspected it, doesn't have to be on HAP for local authorities to inspect. All rentals except Holiday homes can be inspected. For HAP the council has to do the inspection in a set time frame (think its first 8 months), for other rentals they have a planned list they go through, house was rented out 6 years before they did inspection.

Okay I understand. If the council needs to inspect non HAP properties can't the landlord just ignore their calls? How do they actually enforce it?

ztoical

icarus_67 wrote: »

That's really interesting that you didn't have to put child locks in. That would mean there was some discretion involved.

This was 2018 so childlocks might have been added after that, don't know. No longer renting out house so don't care. House was rented to single person, maybe that was a factor, again don't know or care. I wasn't there for the inspection in person, just had the report sent to me.

icarus_67 wrote: »

I don't understand....who inspected your house in the first place if the tenant wasn't on HAP?

Council inspected it, doesn't have to be on HAP for local authorities to inspect. All rentals except Holiday homes can be inspected. For HAP the council has to do the inspection in a set time frame (think its first 8 months), for other rentals they have a planned list they go through, house was rented out 6 years before they did inspection.

icarus_67

TheChizler wrote: »

You might get roughly half the cost back

Not so bad

TheChizler

icarus_67 wrote: »

So I'm actually not really losing any money in the end?

You might get roughly half the cost back

Ace2007

icarus_67 wrote: »

Apologies for my rudeness it's just that in the past people have aggressively given me advice about a certain thing on Boards and other forums and then eventually I find out down the line that they were actually trying to sell me something.
It seems that you weren't one of those people at all and I'm very sorry for my rudeness especially considering you were trying to help me. I do appreciate the help very much.

But you only joined in June 2021?

dancingqueen

icarus_67 wrote: »

How much would you think it would actually cost a guy to call over to drill the holes and install the vents? Are we talking maybe 200 to 300 Euros for the job excluding the cost of the materials?

Get a quote. Jobs can differ depending on property.

icarus_67

Mad_maxx wrote: »

A bit of four inch wavin pipe through the hole in the wall ,where is the expense bar paying guy with core drill and the vent ends you screw to the wall at each side?

Bar drill guy , less than 20 quid in materials per room ,probably less

How much would you think it would actually cost a guy to call over to drill the holes and install the vents? Are we talking maybe 200 to 300 Euros for the job excluding the cost of the materials?