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parkrun, lap two

robinph

Continuation of the previous parkrun thread as seen here:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056845042

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opus

Genghis wrote: »

NI return on 26 June to be confirmed in an announcement on Friday from Parkrun UK.

Link

I'm going to be in Dublin that w/end & must admit the thought crossed my mind to make a break for the border but it's too much of a drive for a 5k run really.

Van.Bosch

opus wrote: »

I'm going to be in Dublin that w/end & must admit the thought crossed my mind to make a break for the border but it's too much of a drive for a 5k run really.

Is it??

Genghis

opus wrote: »

I'm going to be in Dublin that w/end & must admit the thought crossed my mind to make a break for the border but it's too much of a drive for a 5k run really.

By a stroke of good fortune, we had planned a week's staycation in Donegal, so on that day I will be within 50 mins of 4 NI Parkruns. Will be keenly watching the announcements on Friday!

robinph

I'm hoping that parkrun for England, and likely also Wales and NI now, go for the bold option of saying that they are going ahead on the 26th. There are noises around the covid restrictions potentially not being fully lifted next Monday so parkrun HQ have to guess what they think that will be to an extent, but parkrun are still not going to want to tie themselves to the restrictions lifting any more than possible.

If they say parkrun will restart, but nightclubs are not allowed to open in the final relaxation of restrictions and we are still advised to wear masks in shops, then will landowners be able to get away with withdrawing permission for outdoor activities because of those unrelated restrictions?

Only reason for parkrun to not go ahead is if more restrictions are brought back in, although I seriously doubt we'd be going back to January/ February level situation so technically even if more things are brought back in parkrun would still be allowed by government.

Genghis

Interesting dimension in England. Parkrun have calculated that if a certain % of landowners don't consent (more than 20%), then the whole country can't proceed as the permitted events would become oversubscribed. Seems to be a bigger issue in places like London.

So while the Government has moved enough to let many give permission, it does seem that some landowners are waiting on more government restrictions to ease, and it's the cumulative sum of local decisions that is really determining if England returns on 26 June.

Not mentioned in the article below is the level of landowner support in NI, or the amount of cross border participation expected.

Hopefully the article is being written to apply positive pressure before Friday, not in anticipation of bad news.

Link

peter kern

this is interesting but i wouder would a few things like in the first weeks you can only participate if you have volunteered or first come first served rule make this work i assume different course will have different participation levels ie out and boack courses in smaller parks or aon coast front will have smaller numbers than more open parks.
i do see what they are saying but one would hope the conclusion is rather than not doing them was to find a way to regulate it . which is a pity but maybe in the case the lesser evil .

i like parkruns but much more i love the idea behind it and i have also no problem if i was asked not to do them as i go running anyway and the people that have put on weight during the lockdown need them more as a motivator.

robinph

The position from parkrun HQ is that there should be minimal barriers to participation, and to keep it simple.

Various race organisers how are in the business of holding events have come up with different configurations of holding their events with timed starts, waves, chip timing, pre registration etc, but none of that is cheap to do or simple for a bunch of volunteers to handle. Would be a massive extra burden on the volunteers to manage any of the different types of waved starts people have suggested and extra time for them to be stood around and far more complicated for them to administer, in addition to parkrun having to rebuild their system to handle it. You then also have that it makes it more difficult for the people that parkrun are most interested in reaching to get them to participate if there is some kind of limited numbers, pre registration or more infrastructure around the timing which makes it look more like a race. Just changing the possibility for people to feel anonymous in the middle of a crowd could be a big turn off for those who parkrun most want to get active.

Anbocmorrua

I will be holding back from running for a couple of weeks until things settle down. It's easy to see how some parkruns might easily become overwhelmed at the start. Until then volunteering might be a better option for folks.

peter kern

robinph wrote: »

The position from parkrun HQ is that there should be minimal barriers to participation, and to keep it simple.

Various race organisers how are in the business of holding events have come up with different configurations of holding their events with timed starts, waves, chip timing, pre registration etc, but none of that is cheap to do or simple for a bunch of volunteers to handle. Would be a massive extra burden on the volunteers to manage any of the different types of waved starts people have suggested and extra time for them to be stood around and far more complicated for them to administer, in addition to parkrun having to rebuild their system to handle it. You then also have that it makes it more difficult for the people that parkrun are most interested in reaching to get them to participate if there is some kind of limited numbers, pre registration or more infrastructure around the timing which makes it look more like a race. Just changing the possibility for people to feel anonymous in the middle of a crowd could be a big turn off for those who parkrun most want to get active.

robinph wrote: »

The position from parkrun HQ is that there should be minimal barriers to participation, and to keep it simple.

but no parkruns would is the biggest barrier.
and yes i totally agree there is a limit what volunteers should be asked for to do in this case especially the race director of the race should not be overburdened.
you could ask the sub 25 min runner not to show up i would assume that would limit numbers by approx 20 % and they are not really the ones that need to get more active. iam sure some will ignore this request but i guess most would comply

Anbocmorrua

peter kern wrote: »

robinph wrote: »

The position from parkrun HQ is that there should be minimal barriers to participation, and to keep it simple.

you could ask the sub 25 min runner not to show up i would assume that would limit numbers by approx 20 % and they are not really the ones that need to get more active. iam sure some will ignore this request but i guess most would comply

Offer a minimum finish time of 25 mins. That would keep a few folks away. Or maybe not.

ger664

Any thing other then print your barcode and turn up @ 9:30 is not going to be entertained. As an ED keeping it as simple as possible makes the core teams life easy and takes up the least amount of time to run events on a week to week basics.

Asking the sub 25 minutes runners not to show goes complete against the participation ethos of parkrun

Pawwed Rig

ger664 wrote: »

Asking the sub 25 minutes runners not to show goes complete against the participation ethos of parkrun

I think it was a joke tbf

hurleronditch

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I think it was a joke tbf

I don’t think it was. I’d personally tell the over 30 minuters to bog off, they’re only having a jog or a walk anyways......

The theme that the system has to be kept as simple as possible and we need to be back at almost full societal opening for a return is very frustrating. Given how big a movement parkrun is surely a run tracking service like Strava or an upstart competitor could potentially have provided a solution which married the existing parkrun scanners with some form of time tracking which didnt require handing out tags and massive funnelling of people at the finish, which I imagine is part of the concern.

Either way, whenever we do get back, the first few weeks will be completely mental. There’s more people running than ever before over the last year with gyms closed, and surely a booking system of some sort may be needed if it really is mad

Murph_D

hurleronditch wrote: »

I don’t think it was. I’d personally tell the over 30 minuters to bog off, they’re only having a jog or a walk anyways......

The theme that the system has to be kept as simple as possible and we need to be back at almost full societal opening for a return is very frustrating. Given how big a movement parkrun is surely a run tracking service like Strava or an upstart competitor could potentially have provided a solution which married the existing parkrun scanners with some form of time tracking which didnt require handing out tags and massive funnelling of people at the finish, which I imagine is part of the concern.

Either way, whenever we do get back, the first few weeks will be completely mental. There’s more people running than ever before over the last year with gyms closed, and surely a booking system of some sort may be needed if it really is mad

Almost everything in this post demonstrates a fundamental lack of appreciation of how - and more importantly, why - parkrun works as well as it does, and has been so successful.

People don’t have to do parkrun. if you want chip timing, there will be plenty of pay-to-run races available soon enough.

hurleronditch

Murph_D wrote: »

Almost everything in this post demonstrates a fundamental lack of appreciation of how - and more importantly, why - parkrun works as well as it does, and has been so successful.

People don’t have to do parkrun. if you want chip timing, there will be plenty of pay-to-run races available soon enough.

I don’t want chip timing. I want to try and find ways in which parkrun can be run as early as possible and have as low risk of covid transmission as possible.

I know exactly why parkrun is a success, I have completed many and volunteered at both adult and junior parkrun. You might think I have a fundamental lack of appreciation for why parkrun is what it is, that couldn’t be further from the truth, what I am suggesting is that the seeming lack of willingness to explore any other solutions which would possibly provide such an amazing free service to the masses, other than “we will only return when we can do things exactly the way we used to” isn’t the only way of thinking about things will remaining true to the ethos of parkrun.

My over 30 joke was clearly tongue in cheek by the way, on the basis the poster who commented on the under 25s was doing similar, which I’m not certain of.

ger664

hurleronditch wrote: »

I don’t want chip timing. I want to try and find ways in which parkrun can be run as early as possible and have as low risk of covid transmission as possible.

We are not obliged to have a timed run just a safe run. So if handing out tokens and scanning etc presents a risk to volunteers and runners we can proceed without timing the run

Barcodes scanned at the end without cross contamination for contact tracing proposes and proof of participation.

Mar Azul

hurleronditch wrote: »

Given how big a movement parkrun is surely a run tracking service like Strava or an upstart competitor could potentially have provided a solution which married the existing parkrun scanners with some form of time tracking which didnt require handing out tags and massive funnelling of people at the finish, which I imagine is part of the concern.

I think this is a great idea, I know my local parkrun is down as a segment. Surely a software update could be made to correlate results.
Although I'm not too sure strava play well with others.

robinph

Mar Azul wrote: »

I think this is a great idea, I know my local parkrun is down as a segment. Surely a software update could be made to correlate results.
Although I'm not too sure strava play well with others.

There was a couple of years when Strava and parkrun were linking peoples profiles together and you had a link to Strava from parkrun results pages.

Can't remember why that was dropped.

hurleronditch

ger664 wrote: »

We are not obliged to have a timed run just a safe run. So if handing out tokens and scanning etc presents a risk to volunteers and runners we can proceed without timing the run

Barcodes scanned at the end without cross contamination for contact tracing proposes and proof of participation.

No, we’re not obliged to have a timed run, but I think it’s a benefit most people like. I assume running tracking apps would only love a link up like this, which would guarantee sign ups and users, to the point I expect they would offer the service for free.

Turn up at the run site, check in on your Strava which is paired with your parkrun ID, one volunteer organiser presses “go” on the central timer, and Strava checks everyone off as they cross the line automatically. Why we use barcodes at all in this day and age does slightly baffle me.

robinph

The Strava app or GPS watches are nowhere near accurate enough for that kind of automation to happen. OK, so does it really matter if its accurate for a parkrun, maybe not, but the barcode scanning system is pretty simple and accurate without needing much effort. Don't see that there would be much to gain by adding the complication of a system like Strava.

hurleronditch

robinph wrote: »

The Strava app or GPS watches are nowhere near accurate enough for that kind of automation to happen. OK, so does it really matter if its accurate for a parkrun, maybe not, but the barcode scanning system is pretty simple and accurate without needing much effort. Don't see that there would be much to gain by adding the complication of a system like Strava.

You’re saying Strava isn’t accurate enough to simply verify that the user has reached the finishing area in an approximate time, having travelled something in the region of 5k? Really.

It doesn’t need to be accurate to the inch, for the purposes of a parkrun it needs to have geo-located itself and been logged in at the start, have the clock started centrally by the admin user, and then verify that the person is within close proximity of then finsh line/admin “phone” having run something close to 5k (so as not to get confused on a multi lap course). If the person runs 4.9k or 5.05k, or it times 26.55 or 27.01 doesn’t matter for a parkrun, that’s as accurate as it currently is and it doesn’t involve handling barcodes

Pawwed Rig

Would you need to carry your phone with you then while running? That's me out then :pac:

robinph

Just over a parkrun distance you could have a 100m or so difference more or less than the 5km each week you run the same course which could make significant difference to the timings in the results.

Mostly the problem would be that it doesn't actually gain us anything useful, and just makes taking part in parkrun more complicated for a large number of people. How do you deal with junior events or kids taking part in 5km parkrun's, does having a GPS watch for each kid then become a requirement?

hurleronditch

robinph wrote: »

Just over a parkrun distance you could have a 100m or so difference more or less than the 5km each week you run the same course which could make significant difference to the timings in the results.

Mostly the problem would be that it doesn't actually gain us anything useful, and just makes taking part in parkrun more complicated for a large number of people. How do you deal with junior events or kids taking part in 5km parkrun's, does having a GPS watch for each kid then become a requirement?

But it’s “only” a parkrun, not a race for prizes. So if it stops yours or mine time 100m short, it’s not the end of the world. Alternatively you have an honesty system on the app, and you hit a stop button when you’ve crossed the line, and the app verifies you are in the right place (roughly).

I agree the kids point is fair, but for adults almost everyone has a functioning smartphone these days.

Look I know it’s unlikely to happen, but it’s clear the barcode and token system with queuing in funnels is not in any way efficient, nor attractive from a Covid perspective, and I know the Strava solution is unlikely to ever happen, I would just like a bit more lateral thinking than we’ll only reopen when we could do things the way we always have.

robinph

hurleronditch wrote: »

I agree the kids point is fair, but for adults almost everyone has a functioning smartphone these days.

Most of our circles of friends will have smart phones and Garmins and be familiar with how Strava works and know its not a race or accurately measured etc. But we are not the primary target for parkruns mission.

It's the people who are not active that they want to reach, and keeping things as simple as possible and with as few barriers to entry is very important in that. The needing a printed out barcode is a barrier at the moment which people keep pointing out, but I'd expect that to change within a year of things getting back to normal and they figure out a simple app to deal with barcodes on phones, although you still have a problem with kids and phones then.

Running apps seem very simple and obvious to us, but they are not, and they don't run on many older phones of which there are far more than just the latest Apple or Samsung that rich people in the West might have.

robinph

All NI parkruns have approval from landowners now:

https://twitter.com/wehttam57/status/1403010733646942208?s=19

Pherekydes

Time to restart the island?

ger664

hurleronditch wrote: »

No, we’re not obliged to have a timed run, but I think it’s a benefit most people like. I assume running tracking apps would only love a link up like this, which would guarantee sign ups and users, to the point I expect they would offer the service for free.

Turn up at the run site, check in on your Strava which is paired with your parkrun ID, one volunteer organiser presses “go” on the central timer, and Strava checks everyone off as they cross the line automatically. Why we use barcodes at all in this day and age does slightly baffle me.

Not everyone can afford a GPS watch or has the luxury of access to a computer. Doing this would prevent them from participating in parkrun

The Black Oil

Pherekydes wrote: »

Time to restart the island?

Cue Lost flashbacks.

Genghis

robinph wrote: »

All NI parkruns have approval from landowners now:

https://twitter.com/wehttam57/status/1403010733646942208?s=19

Excellent news. I wonder when consultation begins on this side of the border. I guess when it's clearer that mass partication events like Parkrun may go ahead.