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Forced to work from home

Padre_Pio

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

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jakiah

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

One day you are going to realise that its not 1974 and we dont live in an episode of 'Are You Being Served'?

ELM327

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

I wish I could live in your mind for one hour. You have such a misalgned view of what I can only describe as a dystopian universe - compared to the one the rest of us live in.

Mic 1972

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

That's actually true.
If employees are advised to look after their own tax liability the company still remains liable in the end

micosoft

Padre_Pio wrote: »

From what I've been told, the hot desk system is like a library. Not guaranteed the same desk, so I'll have to bring everything in and out of work each day. I have equipment that's not very portable too, so I'll need a trolley. About a quarter of the staff are in the same boat as me.

There was talk that the quarter would have permanent desk space (which also comes with storage and shelves) but that leaves 75% of employees vying for 25% of the space, so it was denied.

I'll have to see how things pan out, but it feels like a kick in the teeth after a year of working from home with COVID. I was prepared to give up space in my house, since there was no option, but I feel like I'm being taken advantage of now.

It does not make sense that you have equipment. How are you working from home if you don't have the equipment there? Or did you bring the equipment home? If you mean by equipment miscellaneous folders and a couple of staplers then just reappraise your habits and go paperless. If you have a genuine need just talk to your office manager who will have planned for this e.g. HR needing to be beside secure filing cabinets, IT having equipment stores etc.

What I suspect what every other office is doing is dealing with those that require a permanent desk on a case by case basis. Because there will always be a group who just want a cluttered desk they can "own".

kathleen37

jakiah wrote: »

One day you are going to realise that its not 1974 and we dont live in an episode of 'Are You Being Served'?

This is by far and away the best response in this thread. Made me laugh. Rest of thread; making me cry.

Padre_Pio

micosoft wrote: »

It does not make sense that you have equipment.

Thank you for telling me what my job requires.

How are you working from home if you don't have the equipment there? Or did you bring the equipment home? If you mean by equipment miscellaneous folders and a couple of staplers then just reappraise your habits and go paperless. If you have a genuine need just talk to your office manager who will have planned for this e.g. HR needing to be beside secure filing cabinets, IT having equipment stores etc.

What I suspect what every other office is doing is dealing with those that require a permanent desk on a case by case basis. Because there will always be a group who just want a cluttered desk they can "own".

I explained this before in other posts.
I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

kathleen37

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Thank you for telling me what my job requires.

I explained this before in other posts.
I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

I must be honest, I'm curious about what equipment you use - mainly because I'm nosey, but, also,

There could be a health and safety issue if your equipment is lumbersome or heavy and you're required to transport it each day/ a few times a week and this absolutely could be a reason you could be assigned a workspace in the office to accommodate your equipment.

Now, I only have NI/UK experience in H&S and workspace requirements so may not apply here, but I'd really recommend speaking to your union if you have one, and either way, emailing your HR detailing your concerns from a health and safety perspective.

Good luck.

Blazer

I work for a large IT multinational company and they have provided us with extra monitors, chairs, keyboard,mice etc since last year.
Of course we're being given the option of returning to the office but I've gone for a hybrid option..1 day a week in the office...Its grand for me though..I have a dedicated music room which I also use for work.
But a lot of people don't have the luxury of this. Companies are saving money by WFH so its only right they compensate staff etc if they force them down this route.
I remember at the time my company offered fulltime WFH a few years ago you were given 3.5k of a grant to buy office supplies etc and they had to meet health and safety standards and were physically checked on this. Seems to be gone now though

Mic 1972

kathleen37 wrote: »

I must be honest, I'm curious about what equipment you use - mainly because I'm nosey, but, also,

There could be a health and safety issue if your equipment is lumbersome or heavy and you're required to transport it each day/ a few times a week and this absolutely could be a reason you could be assigned a workspace in the office to accommodate your equipment.

Now, I only have NI/UK experience in H&S and workspace requirements so may not apply here, but I'd really recommend speaking to your union if you have one, and either way, emailing your HR detailing your concerns from a health and safety perspective.

Good luck.

From my experience, in my job I require 2 monitors which i have set up at home. In our office only some desks were equipped with 2 monitors, most desk had just one monitor.

In a floating environment where i get to use whatever desk is available the company would have to equip every desk with 2 monitors in order to accommodate members of my team, which would be a waste of resource since most people only need one.

C3PO

Blazer wrote: »

Companies are saving money by WFH so its only right they compensate staff etc if they force them down this route.

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

[Deleted User]

C3PO wrote: »

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Jesus, is it really worth your while doing that? That's serious flexibility on your part tbf and congrats on that, but where is the pay off?

Padre_Pio

C3PO wrote: »

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Definitely. Commercial rents are easily in the hundreds of thousands.
So long as your company is growing, they'll save money either by cutting back on services and utilities now, or by not having to expand in future.

No company will survive by only having their staff wellbeing in mind. Someone has done a calculation and worked out the savings long term.

Fair enough if you want to WFH, but you're paying for your own office space, your company is getting it for free. People are only content as they're saving money from a commute etc.

C3PO

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Definitely. Commercial rents are easily in the hundreds of thousands.
So long as your company is growing, they'll save money either by cutting back on services and utilities now, or by not having to expand in future.

No company will survive by only having their staff wellbeing in mind. Someone has done a calculation and worked out the savings long term.

Fair enough if you want to WFH, but you're paying for your own office space, your company is getting it for free. People are only content as they're saving money from a commute etc.

I can only speak for sure about our company but we are definitely doing it to facilitate staff. Everyone will have a desk in the office and the option to work remotely 2-3 days a week if they want. The “calculation” is that staff members will be more productive and more likely to stay with the company - it may make financial sense in the long run but that is not the primary driver.

[Deleted User]

C3PO wrote: »

I can only speak for sure about our company but we are definitely doing it to facilitate staff. Everyone will have a desk in the office and the option to work remotely 2-3 days a week if they want. The “calculation” is that staff members will be more productive and more likely to stay with the company - it may make financial sense in the long run but that is not the primary driver.

I'd love to meet the CEO/CFO of a company where financial sense isn't the primary driver.

"Hey CEO, would you like to lower costs?"

"Nah, I'm not driven by financial sense."

[Deleted User]

ted1 wrote: »

Ergonomic inspectors are not listed as essential services do they could not do house visits

Our reviews were done with pictures beforehand and a video call after. Nobody was required to travel.

[Deleted User]

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I don't know where you worked before, but I've never worked anywhere that colleagues didn't socialise outside work, go for pints on Fridays, have sports groups and fantasy leagues, organise team-building exercises that were an excuse for a piss-up.
There's a good amount of people who've gotten married to colleagues too.

I miss all of that.

Socialise outside work........can't happen now anyway, but nothing to stop you going for pints of a Friday when the pubs are back open
Sports / fantasy leagues..........I run two of them in work myself, can't see why they've stopped
Team-building......I'm on the Social Committee and have organised stuff that is drink orientated as well, again It's better to do in person but not essential.

The only thing in your list that you can't do is go for a few pints with workmates, but sure you can't do that now anyway, even if everyone was in the office. Nothing stopping that from happening once the pubs are open.

Mastroianni

floorpie wrote: »

Vaccinations aren't expected to be completed until September and I suppose we should anticipate delays, so personally I couldn't imagine return to office until Oct/Nov. Who knows.

I don't want to questioning your assertions but...are you sure?

I don't know if you have witnessed what happened in city center last sunny days. I'm looking forward to see the 7th June reopening. I have read somewhere that the Indian strain of the virus is already here. Do the math.
I believe that by September/October cases will be risen up to have a curve more or less under control (depending on vaccination) for Xmas shoppings. The situation will be eased not before than late Q2 2022.
IMHO!

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine being the type of individual who goes around counting posts and keeping arbitrary scores on boards forums...

I'll continue to post my opinion, regardless of your feelings or personal attacks.

Don't like it? You are free to ignore me.

Cheers.

You seem to be unaware of how the search function works?

The super-duper computer will actually count the posts for you!
Oh! Isnt life grand!

Blazer

C3PO wrote: »

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Lower power requirements is a huge win for companies.
Less internet bandwidth required, less onsite resources ie canteens etc.
All win win.
My company is now shutting down sales offices worldwide with less than 25 staff as COVID has proved staff can WFH and still get the job done.

Mrs OBumble

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Jesus, is it really worth your while doing that? That's serious flexibility on your part tbf and congrats on that, but where is the pay off?

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

[Deleted User]

GreeBo wrote: »

You seem to be unaware of how the search function works?

The super-duper computer will actually count the posts for you!
Oh! Isnt life grand!

Imagine being that sad, though? Going around counting people's posts (automated or not) to score some kind of "point".

L

Padre_Pio

GreeBo wrote: »

You seem to be unaware of how the search function works?

The super-duper computer will actually count the posts for you!
Oh! Isnt life grand!

That was a week ago.

ineedeuro

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

We are only 16 months into WFH en masse due to COvid.
People are not moving around the country because of lock down after lockdown after lockdown
Tenants don't have to move from properties even if not paying rent.

Somehow I think with all of this going on, I doubt any company has "serious turnover" or have enough data top suggest WFH is an issue.

No company should just focus on people already in place, they should focus on them but also on attracting new talent and keeping them.

[Deleted User]

ineedeuro wrote: »

We are only 16 months into WFH en masse due to COvid.
People are not moving around the country because of lock down after lockdown after lockdown
Tenants don't have to move from properties even if not paying rent.

Somehow I think with all of this going on, I doubt any company has "serious turnover" or have enough data top suggest WFH is an issue.

Well put. I'll call it for what it is. It's total ****ing lies.

Backstreet Moyes

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

Do you mind if I ask how many jobs you have since you said this about one company you are working for?

What I find strange is you have more than one job, you distrust employees you can't see in person so you obviously are not some intern on low wages, but yet you can only afford somewhere where the only place you can work from is a kitchen table that is so tiny the laptop barely fits.

Something really is not adding up.

Christy42

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

That seems to be a serious issue with how the company is run. My first thought is why does no one want to work for them? Not damn the office location is no longer trapping people to a job they don't want.

Mrs OBumble

Nuts102 wrote: »

Do you mind if I ask how many jobs you have since you said this about one company you are working for?

What I find strange is you have more than one job, you distrust employees you can't see in person so you obviously are not some intern on low wages, but yet you can only afford somewhere where the only place you can work from is a kitchen table that is so tiny the laptop barely fits.

Something really is not adding up.

Right now, I have one main contract of about 30 hours/week, and a 2nd contract for a smaller, related company for about 10 hours/week. Also have some side-gig website / consultancy work.

Got laid of with the last recession in 2008, back to professional work a couple of years later but made redundant in 2016. Have done a variety of contracts since, some quite senior / responsible, some not: I'd rather be working than scratching, and have a range of skills and an attitude to be busy. So have experienced a wider range of workplaces than many.

I can afford a larger place. In practice, though, there's a housing shortage. There are few places to rent anyway, and some landlords new turn places over every 6 months to avoid getting trapped into a Part 4 tenancy. I'm in a very small, city-centre apartment which is incredibly well-located, both for social life (when places are open!) and also for taking work on either side of the city. The landlord is decent, the place is nice, the rent is reasonable. Put these together and it would be mad to move. But it's not suitable for WFH.

Happy now?

Flinty997

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

The only reason people don't move is inertia. The modern workplace does not reward loyality. If a company is having a lot of churn, it's unlikely to be solely due to WFH unless it's in genuinely in an awful location with zero other opportunities near it. More likely there's a cascade of issues, and WFH was the final straw...

Flinty997

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Right now, I have one ....

You should have ignored the inference.

The defence of someones argument does not require another user to give personal information. It should stand on its own merits.

GreeBo

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You should get onto the HR and finance departments of the rather large utility company I work for and advise them.

It's preposterous that you'd even think that "they'd hope they won't get get caught".

I think they slipped up by telling the local tax organisation as well though if they were trying to hide it.

Utterly bizarre.

If your employer already has a permanent establishment in Ireland then it's a totally different situation to the one in question.

If an employee works from another country then the employer can be liable for corporation tax in that country did to the employee being deemed to have established a permanent residence in that country.

The employers tax situation is the biggest problem, not the employees.