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Forced to work from home

Padre_Pio

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

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Mrs OBumble

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Jesus, is it really worth your while doing that? That's serious flexibility on your part tbf and congrats on that, but where is the pay off?

In one company I'm doing work for, WFH is causing serious turnover issues: people from other towns and cities are accepting jobs, but only staying until they get a better offer. In the past, they would have had to move to Galway to accept the job. Now there's less committment. So the company are focusing on keeping the people who are already emotionally bonded to them, and doing similar with hardware. Pay off is hoped to be in less churn.

Blazer

C3PO wrote: »

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Lower power requirements is a huge win for companies.
Less internet bandwidth required, less onsite resources ie canteens etc.
All win win.
My company is now shutting down sales offices worldwide with less than 25 staff as COVID has proved staff can WFH and still get the job done.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine being the type of individual who goes around counting posts and keeping arbitrary scores on boards forums...

I'll continue to post my opinion, regardless of your feelings or personal attacks.

Don't like it? You are free to ignore me.

Cheers.

You seem to be unaware of how the search function works?

The super-duper computer will actually count the posts for you!
Oh! Isnt life grand!

Mastroianni

floorpie wrote: »

Vaccinations aren't expected to be completed until September and I suppose we should anticipate delays, so personally I couldn't imagine return to office until Oct/Nov. Who knows.

I don't want to questioning your assertions but...are you sure?

I don't know if you have witnessed what happened in city center last sunny days. I'm looking forward to see the 7th June reopening. I have read somewhere that the Indian strain of the virus is already here. Do the math.
I believe that by September/October cases will be risen up to have a curve more or less under control (depending on vaccination) for Xmas shoppings. The situation will be eased not before than late Q2 2022.
IMHO!

[Deleted User]

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I don't know where you worked before, but I've never worked anywhere that colleagues didn't socialise outside work, go for pints on Fridays, have sports groups and fantasy leagues, organise team-building exercises that were an excuse for a piss-up.
There's a good amount of people who've gotten married to colleagues too.

I miss all of that.

Socialise outside work........can't happen now anyway, but nothing to stop you going for pints of a Friday when the pubs are back open
Sports / fantasy leagues..........I run two of them in work myself, can't see why they've stopped
Team-building......I'm on the Social Committee and have organised stuff that is drink orientated as well, again It's better to do in person but not essential.

The only thing in your list that you can't do is go for a few pints with workmates, but sure you can't do that now anyway, even if everyone was in the office. Nothing stopping that from happening once the pubs are open.

[Deleted User]

ted1 wrote: »

Ergonomic inspectors are not listed as essential services do they could not do house visits

Our reviews were done with pictures beforehand and a video call after. Nobody was required to travel.

[Deleted User]

C3PO wrote: »

I can only speak for sure about our company but we are definitely doing it to facilitate staff. Everyone will have a desk in the office and the option to work remotely 2-3 days a week if they want. The “calculation” is that staff members will be more productive and more likely to stay with the company - it may make financial sense in the long run but that is not the primary driver.

I'd love to meet the CEO/CFO of a company where financial sense isn't the primary driver.

"Hey CEO, would you like to lower costs?"

"Nah, I'm not driven by financial sense."

C3PO

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Definitely. Commercial rents are easily in the hundreds of thousands.
So long as your company is growing, they'll save money either by cutting back on services and utilities now, or by not having to expand in future.

No company will survive by only having their staff wellbeing in mind. Someone has done a calculation and worked out the savings long term.

Fair enough if you want to WFH, but you're paying for your own office space, your company is getting it for free. People are only content as they're saving money from a commute etc.

I can only speak for sure about our company but we are definitely doing it to facilitate staff. Everyone will have a desk in the office and the option to work remotely 2-3 days a week if they want. The “calculation” is that staff members will be more productive and more likely to stay with the company - it may make financial sense in the long run but that is not the primary driver.

Padre_Pio

C3PO wrote: »

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Definitely. Commercial rents are easily in the hundreds of thousands.
So long as your company is growing, they'll save money either by cutting back on services and utilities now, or by not having to expand in future.

No company will survive by only having their staff wellbeing in mind. Someone has done a calculation and worked out the savings long term.

Fair enough if you want to WFH, but you're paying for your own office space, your company is getting it for free. People are only content as they're saving money from a commute etc.

[Deleted User]

C3PO wrote: »

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Jesus, is it really worth your while doing that? That's serious flexibility on your part tbf and congrats on that, but where is the pay off?

C3PO

Blazer wrote: »

Companies are saving money by WFH so its only right they compensate staff etc if they force them down this route.

But are they?
I know for our company offering people the option of a hybrid solution is costing us in the region of €750k. Everyone will have a high end laptop, 4 screens (2 at home / 2 in the office), 2 docking stations and 2 keyboards and mice. Like many companies we are tied into a lease on the premises so there is no option to downsize currently. This is being done purely to facilitate staff.

Mic 1972

kathleen37 wrote: »

I must be honest, I'm curious about what equipment you use - mainly because I'm nosey, but, also,

There could be a health and safety issue if your equipment is lumbersome or heavy and you're required to transport it each day/ a few times a week and this absolutely could be a reason you could be assigned a workspace in the office to accommodate your equipment.

Now, I only have NI/UK experience in H&S and workspace requirements so may not apply here, but I'd really recommend speaking to your union if you have one, and either way, emailing your HR detailing your concerns from a health and safety perspective.

Good luck.

From my experience, in my job I require 2 monitors which i have set up at home. In our office only some desks were equipped with 2 monitors, most desk had just one monitor.

In a floating environment where i get to use whatever desk is available the company would have to equip every desk with 2 monitors in order to accommodate members of my team, which would be a waste of resource since most people only need one.

Blazer

I work for a large IT multinational company and they have provided us with extra monitors, chairs, keyboard,mice etc since last year.
Of course we're being given the option of returning to the office but I've gone for a hybrid option..1 day a week in the office...Its grand for me though..I have a dedicated music room which I also use for work.
But a lot of people don't have the luxury of this. Companies are saving money by WFH so its only right they compensate staff etc if they force them down this route.
I remember at the time my company offered fulltime WFH a few years ago you were given 3.5k of a grant to buy office supplies etc and they had to meet health and safety standards and were physically checked on this. Seems to be gone now though

kathleen37

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Thank you for telling me what my job requires.

I explained this before in other posts.
I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

I must be honest, I'm curious about what equipment you use - mainly because I'm nosey, but, also,

There could be a health and safety issue if your equipment is lumbersome or heavy and you're required to transport it each day/ a few times a week and this absolutely could be a reason you could be assigned a workspace in the office to accommodate your equipment.

Now, I only have NI/UK experience in H&S and workspace requirements so may not apply here, but I'd really recommend speaking to your union if you have one, and either way, emailing your HR detailing your concerns from a health and safety perspective.

Good luck.

Padre_Pio

micosoft wrote: »

It does not make sense that you have equipment.

Thank you for telling me what my job requires.

How are you working from home if you don't have the equipment there? Or did you bring the equipment home? If you mean by equipment miscellaneous folders and a couple of staplers then just reappraise your habits and go paperless. If you have a genuine need just talk to your office manager who will have planned for this e.g. HR needing to be beside secure filing cabinets, IT having equipment stores etc.

What I suspect what every other office is doing is dealing with those that require a permanent desk on a case by case basis. Because there will always be a group who just want a cluttered desk they can "own".

I explained this before in other posts.
I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

kathleen37

jakiah wrote: »

One day you are going to realise that its not 1974 and we dont live in an episode of 'Are You Being Served'?

This is by far and away the best response in this thread. Made me laugh. Rest of thread; making me cry.

micosoft

Padre_Pio wrote: »

From what I've been told, the hot desk system is like a library. Not guaranteed the same desk, so I'll have to bring everything in and out of work each day. I have equipment that's not very portable too, so I'll need a trolley. About a quarter of the staff are in the same boat as me.

There was talk that the quarter would have permanent desk space (which also comes with storage and shelves) but that leaves 75% of employees vying for 25% of the space, so it was denied.

I'll have to see how things pan out, but it feels like a kick in the teeth after a year of working from home with COVID. I was prepared to give up space in my house, since there was no option, but I feel like I'm being taken advantage of now.

It does not make sense that you have equipment. How are you working from home if you don't have the equipment there? Or did you bring the equipment home? If you mean by equipment miscellaneous folders and a couple of staplers then just reappraise your habits and go paperless. If you have a genuine need just talk to your office manager who will have planned for this e.g. HR needing to be beside secure filing cabinets, IT having equipment stores etc.

What I suspect what every other office is doing is dealing with those that require a permanent desk on a case by case basis. Because there will always be a group who just want a cluttered desk they can "own".

Mic 1972

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

That's actually true.
If employees are advised to look after their own tax liability the company still remains liable in the end

ELM327

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

I wish I could live in your mind for one hour. You have such a misalgned view of what I can only describe as a dystopian universe - compared to the one the rest of us live in.

jakiah

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

One day you are going to realise that its not 1974 and we dont live in an episode of 'Are You Being Served'?

Mic 1972

Deleted User wrote: »

they can allow you to work abroad if they have payroll presence in said country (though you dont have be on said payroll). We were told definitively by my US based MNC that we can work anywhere that there is a physical presence in country, for as long as we want (which is maybe 50% of EU countries and the UK). We could not work anywhere that there is not an office

But they also made very clear that the individual tax liabilities of being somewhere for more than 6 months are our own to deal with and that the company would not provide advice / support.

So there you have a clear policy then.

Mrs OBumble

jakiah wrote: »

My company literally does not have a policy for this. You can work from wherever you like, whenever you like as long as you are meeting targets. If you have a commitment in the office or on a customer site you are expected to be there (obviously). Otherwise you manage your own time & location.

I dont know how some of you are going to be able to cope tbh.

One day, your company is going to get a visit from a Workplace Relations Commission inspector, and they are likely to get quite an interesting penalty.

Or theycare going to fire someone for not meeting targets, and find themselves in the Labour Court answering an unjustified dismissal claim which makes them look very bad.

Padre_Pio

jakiah wrote: »

/facepalm

Great input. V intelligent.

jakiah wrote: »

My company literally does not have a policy for this. You can work from wherever you like, whenever you like as long as you are meeting targets.

That second part "as long as you are meeting targets" is literally a policy.

jakiah

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I'd love to see the fine print of this, as I'd imagine there's plenty of caveats.

/facepalm

Padre_Pio

jakiah wrote: »

My company literally does not have a policy for this. You can work from wherever you like, whenever you like as long as you are meeting targets. If you have a commitment in the office or on a customer site you are expected to be there (obviously). Otherwise you manage your own time & location.

I dont know how some of you are going to be able to cope tbh.

And that's fine. I'd love to see the fine print of this, as I'd imagine there's plenty of caveats.
What happens when your company unilaterally changes this policy?

Reminds me of Virgin's policy that you can take as much time off as you want, provided all your work is done, but whoever actually finished ALL their work. THere's always something else to do.

[Deleted User]

Mic 1972 wrote: »

That sounds like a company policy to me.

With regards to working from abroad, which was the original argument, no Irish company can allow you to work more than 6 months + 1 days outside of Ireland

they can allow you to work abroad if they have payroll presence in said country (though you dont have be on said payroll). We were told definitively by my US based MNC that we can work anywhere that there is a physical presence in country, for as long as we want (which is maybe 50% of EU countries and the UK). We could not work anywhere that there is not an office

But they also made very clear that the individual tax liabilities of being somewhere for more than 6 months are our own to deal with and that the company would not provide advice / support.

Mic 1972

jakiah wrote: »

My company literally does not have a policy for this. You can work from wherever you like, whenever you like as long as you are meeting targets. If you have a commitment in the office or on a customer site you are expected to be there (obviously). Otherwise you manage your own time & location.

I dont know how some of you are going to be able to cope tbh.

That sounds like a company policy to me.

With regards to working from abroad, which was the original argument, no Irish company can allow you to work more than 6 months + 1 days outside of Ireland

jakiah

mrslancaster wrote: »

If everything is so flexible why would companies even need policies?

My company literally does not have a policy for this. You can work from wherever you like, whenever you like as long as you are meeting targets. If you have a commitment in the office or on a customer site you are expected to be there (obviously). Otherwise you manage your own time & location.

I dont know how some of you are going to be able to cope tbh.

ted1

blindsider wrote: »

When did it get waived? I don't remember seeing that in the legislation...maybe I missed it...

Do you have any links etc to support this?

Ergonomic inspectors are not listed as essential services do they could not do house visits

mrslancaster

jakiah wrote: »

Some of your minds are going to be blown when you discover that more modern work practices are *actually* flexible, not just trading one big bunch of rules for another like 'every Tuesday and Wednesday in the office, 9am to 5.30pm'.

If everything is so flexible why would companies even need policies? They're to ensure all employess are treated equally and if there's any problem it can be addressed fairly without any bias on the part of managers etc.

Also organisations can't just change employees contracts without agreement or expect employees to provide their 'place of work' in their home. It's crazy & nothing to do with modern work practices.
Mrs OBumble is spot on.

Different situation entirely if it's an independent contractor.