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Forced to work from home

Padre_Pio

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

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BonnieSituation

ari101 wrote: »

I want back in office myself. The routine incl. the commute, sociability, leaving work behind where I can't see it, is part of my mental health. I expect I will have that choice though where I am now, but if I move, I'll be looking for a job with 3+ days a week in office.

Hot desking should come with peripherals and a set up you can dock into IMO, if it is to work efficiently. With the need to process and review data, for example, a laptop screen is just not big enough to do it efficiently, a separate screen is really required. With a riser and separate keyboard you can fix some of the ergonomics but the screen is too small far away for ease of sight/use for some work. And then docking stations are brand/laptop specific which makes them a problem to fit for hotdesks if your workforce have varied equipment.

In Dublin commuting requires carrying gear without a car for a lot, which is just not feasible beyond a laptop and charger regularly. It's a mine field.

I do think wfh has perks to offset some of the 'costs' in facility terms (save on the commute cost and time, no buying lunch out or pre preparing it in morn, get short house chores done during day on breaks) but gosh I also want my dining table back. And if you share a home are you expected to work from bedroom or take up shared space forever, or pay rent for an extra room for an office? Business need to consider that just because they want to kick us out doesn't mean we have realistic places to go. For some people it works well, let them stay home.

Couldn't agree with this more.

I'm currently in a 100% WFH setup. I absolutely loathe it.

I know there's a load out there that can't abide the idea of a commute, but Jesus, the idea of leaving work behind or office socialising or even simple progression not being shunted is surely worth an occasional visit to an office?

I'm moving jobs in about 3 weeks time and I made it clear that I want the flexibility of WFH, but don't expect me to avail of it unless it suits me.

There's a lot to be said for decompressing morning coffees etc. These are important little interruptions in your day that I and I know most of my mates are missing.

WFH suits a lot of people, but just because it suits you doesn't mean it suits us all.

As an aside, I did a hdip and am now doing a masters via distance and honestly, it's a right pain in the hole. Our class met up a few weeks back for a meet up and intro session after 4 months and we were all the better for it.

There's a place for remote learning and working, but there's no replacement for face to face interaction, learning and networking.

Addle

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Couldn't agree with this more.

I'm currently in a 100% WFH setup. I absolutely loathe it.

I know there's a load out there that can't abide the idea of a commute, but Jesus, the idea of leaving work behind or office socialising or even simple progression not being shunted is surely worth an occasional visit to an office?

I'm moving jobs in about 3 weeks time and I made it clear that I want the flexibility of WFH, but don't expect me to avail of it unless it suits me.

My employer imposes its decisions on me. I’m surprised how demanding some employees are.
I’d love to stay wfh. No made a decent workspace for myself. But my employer is planning on bringing everyone back to the office.

Wabbit Ears

Addle wrote: »

My employer imposes its decisions on me. I’m surprised how demanding some employees are.
I’d love to stay wfh. No made a decent workspace for myself. But my employer is planning on bringing everyone back to the office.

Not all employers are like that. Time to brush up the CV and see what's out there.

floorpie

Jim2007 wrote: »

Living abroad is not really possible because there are no permits to cover the remote working concept. Even the EU free movement does not cover it - they assume you are employed in the state, there for family reunion or have retired to that state and your income is not derived from economic activity.

The result is that you don’t have access to services that would allow you to build a permanent life there. Short periods are possible, but that becomes a bit of a pain after a while.

Can you choose to be tax resident in Ireland while abroad? Are there any other considerations for an employer along the lines of tax that might prevent an employee moving?

KaneToad

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Couldn't agree with this more.

I'm currently in a 100% WFH setup. I absolutely loathe it.

I know there's a load out there that can't abide the idea of a commute, but Jesus, the idea of leaving work behind or office socialising or even simple progression not being shunted is surely worth an occasional visit to an office?

I'm moving jobs in about 3 weeks time and I made it clear that I want the flexibility of WFH, but don't expect me to avail of it unless it suits me.

There's a lot to be said for decompressing morning coffees etc. These are important little interruptions in your day that I and I know most of my mates are missing.

WFH suits a lot of people, but just because it suits you doesn't mean it suits us all.

As an aside, I did a hdip and am now doing a masters via distance and honestly, it's a right pain in the hole. Our class met up a few weeks back for a meet up and intro session after 4 months and we were all the better for it.

There's a place for remote learning and working, but there's no replacement for face to face interaction, learning and networking.

As you have alluded to, it's different strokes for different folks. I think remote learning/working can definitely replace face to face interaction.

I have zero interest in the social aspects of work/learning. I interact socially with people of my choosing not with people I am randomly thrown together with in a work environment.

[Deleted User]

floorpie wrote: »

Regular cheap 4K monitors, and that's a normal enough power draw for >26" at daytime brightness I believe. I think everybody needs two, everyone in my place is provided with two, and 10 hours is the normal time you'd have equipment on each day.

The €3.20 per day you mention is a good estimate for the average daily costs we're incurring when WFH, and I'd be happy enough if we're all getting that as standard.

you should ask your employer. I get it.

Mic 1972

newuser99999 wrote: »

Sorry I can’t interview every graduate in Ireland for you.

I will assume that most of us don’t enjoy working with people we’ve never met face to face, in house shares or family homes, having hardly any interaction with colleagues.

That’s such a bold claim.

I agree with this.

Also, expecting people to be equipped with a proper home office in order to secure a job is not a fair requirement

Mic 1972

floorpie wrote: »

Can you choose to be tax resident in Ireland while abroad? Are there any other considerations for an employer along the lines of tax that might prevent an employee moving?

No you can't. Living in another country means being a tax payer in that country.

floorpie

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Living in another country means being a tax payer in that country.

According to Ireland or to other countries? I.e. does it depend on the country you move to?

newuser99999

floorpie wrote: »

According to Ireland or to other countries? I.e. does it depend on the country you move to?

If you are in Ireland for 183 days or more you need to pay tax here.

It depends on the country that you move to. Some have agreements with Ireland, some you’d have to pay double taxation.

BonnieSituation

Mic 1972 wrote: »

No you can't. Living in another country means being a tax payer in that country.

I'm currently working and living between two different jurisdictions. It's not at all an issue.

floorpie

newuser99999 wrote: »

If you are in Ireland for 183 days or more you need to pay tax here.

I guess people generally want to not pay tax by being abroad, whereas I'm asking if I can instead choose to pay tax here while abroad

It depends on the country that you move to. Some have agreements with Ireland, some you’d have to pay double taxation.

What if hypothetically if I moved to a zero tax/no tax treaty jurisdiction?

People in work keep mentioning the "tax implications" of moving abroad, so I suppose what I'm asking more generally is if this is any of my employers business (assuming it isn't mentioned in my contract) or is it just a matter for Revenue?

Mrs OBumble

floorpie wrote: »

People in work keep mentioning the "tax implications" of moving abroad, so I suppose what I'm asking more generally is if this is any of my employers business (assuming it isn't mentioned in my contract) or is it just a matter for Revenue?

It's very much your employer's business: if they have an employee who lives in France, for example, then they (the employer) has to comply with the French tax and employment laws for that person. So they automatically have to give you more annual leave, etc .

newuser99999

floorpie wrote: »

People in work keep mentioning the "tax implications" of moving abroad, so I suppose what I'm asking more generally is if this is any of my employers business (assuming it isn't mentioned in my contract) or is it just a matter for Revenue?

Yep it is the employers business. People could actually be in breach of their contract if they haven’t told their employer they’re working abroad.

Data protection issues come into play as well if outside the EEA

Mrs OBumble

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Rent in a hotpot office should be tax deductible as well.

This.

If I rent an office myself, I have to do so out of my after tax earnings. So a 600 PCM office takes 1200 of my gross pay. (Yes, I've priced them).

If my employer does it, it immediately costs them 12.5% less - and they likely have better negotiating power, too.

floorpie

Thanks all.

newuser99999 wrote: »

Yep it is the employers business. People could actually be in breach of their contract if they haven’t told their employer they’re working abroad.

Data protection issues come into play as well if outside the EEA

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's very much your employer's business: if they have an employee who lives in France, for example, then they (the employer) has to comply with the French tax and employment laws for that person. So they automatically have to give you more annual leave, etc .

But again, if I'm not asking to be considered an employee elsewhere? I understand the difficulty if I were to tell my employer "I want French working conditions".

I'm confused between the difference in what I've often had to do (work abroad for 3-6 months at a time) and doing this at my discretion. I also have consultants in my family who've worked for abroad for years in a row but were still considered employees in Ireland, paying tax in Ireland, Irish employment conditions etc.

Christy42

floorpie wrote: »

Thanks all.

But again, if I'm not asking to be considered an employee elsewhere? I understand the difficulty if I were to tell my employer "I want French working conditions".

I'm confused between the difference in what I've often had to do (work abroad for 3-6 months at a time) and doing this at my discretion. I also have consultants in my family who've worked for abroad for years in a row but were still considered employees in Ireland, paying tax in Ireland, Irish employment conditions etc.

They need to keep track of how often people are working abroad to make sure they are also complying with residency laws. It can be different for consultants but remember they are paying tax on your behalf for your paycheque. We have been told working abroad for a week or two (it has come up for people spending a week or two with family) is generally fine but to mention it first. You only mention 3-6 months. How does the company know it is only 3-6 months and not 12 if it is at your discretion and you don't tell them?

Imagine sending sensitive working data to China or Russia and having that put into the paper without any nuance? Doesn't matter how you try and explain that logically it will be a black mark against your company. (That is was just sent to a person in Russia or China and not the government will only be for people who read the fine print).

It will be a case by case basis but talk to HR about it if you want to and I am sure they can explain issues better. It will likely be possible in many occasions but it helps for the company to know what is happening.

floorpie

Christy42 wrote: »

Imagine sending sensitive working data to China or Russia and having that put into the paper without any nuance? Doesn't matter how you try and explain that logically it will be a black mark against your company. (That is was just sent to a person in Russia or China and not the government will only be for people who read the fine print).

Yeah this is no doubt an issue.

Thanks

Mrs OBumble

floorpie wrote: »

But again, if I'm not asking to be considered an employee elsewhere? I understand the difficulty if I were to tell my employer "I want French working conditions".

You don't get to contract out of local laws: if you live in France, then French laws apply to you whether you ask for them or not.

If you are working as a self-employed contractor, things are different because you are not an employee.

_Kaiser_

Few points....

- There is an allowance that can be claimed for WFH utility costs. Granted it's not very much, but remember you're also saving on commuting costs, lunches etc, so....

- While not everyone has space for a dedicated home office, savings on commute and other stuff plus certainty of the arrangement can be used to move somewhere bigger/further out if needed

- Most offices will have a hot desk system with monitors, peripherals etc. All you'll need to bring is your work laptop. Even that might not be needed if you connect to the office via a hosted environment like Citrix or Azure

- Many companies have or are looking at other things they need to provide such as chairs, desks etc to home workers. I know of one that has done a deal with Amazon and staff will be able to buy/charge what they need back

- As others have said, you can book a hot desk for the days you want to be in the office in most cases

- I get that the office is a social outlet for some, but in fairness that's not your employer's issue. It's obviously better if you have people you get on with but you are there to work too

- Progression issue etc is bad management and not something that'll change if everyone is at a desk

- Not having a 2+ hour commute every day (as many do) is a huge thing. I didn't realise how much it was taking out of me until I stopped doing it.
Now I'm sleeping better, eating better (not buying takeaways or microwave food late in the evening because I'm too knackered/can't be arsed cooking), and have more time for other things and people in the evening

ineedeuro

People keep talking about office as a social place.
A huge amount of issues for companies comes from relationships in offices. The office bully taking a dislike to someone and spreading rumours etc.
I would expect a lot of HR departments are cheering that some people are now locked at home and nowhere near the rest of the employees

floorpie

ineedeuro wrote: »

People keep talking about office as a social place.
A huge amount of issues for companies comes from relationships in offices. The office bully taking a dislike to someone and spreading rumours etc.
I would expect a lot of HR departments are cheering that some people are now locked at home and nowhere near the rest of the employees

It isn't talked about as a social place, it is one, whether people here like it or not. You spend a big portion of your life there and in the urban centres that 100s thousands ppl also go to every day.

On the other hand, working at home alone for a big portion of your life is a social aberration and will likely have other ramifications for HR depts (check how many mails your HR dept have sent out about "wellbeing" this year).

Padre_Pio

ineedeuro wrote: »

People keep talking about office as a social place.
A huge amount of issues for companies comes from relationships in offices. The office bully taking a dislike to someone and spreading rumours etc.
I would expect a lot of HR departments are cheering that some people are now locked at home and nowhere near the rest of the employees

I don't know where you worked before, but I've never worked anywhere that colleagues didn't socialise outside work, go for pints on Fridays, have sports groups and fantasy leagues, organise team-building exercises that were an excuse for a piss-up.
There's a good amount of people who've gotten married to colleagues too.

I miss all of that.

jakiah

Business itself is a social activity. Business is predicated on relationship building - sales, customer relations, customer service, conferences & industry events and networking have been central for years. People are talking about the loss of this stuff when everyone is WFH, not your need to talk about the latest TV show in the office. If you lose the ability to go to a customer site and do a workshop, or a sales presentation and take the customer out to lunch afterwards there is no difference between you and a whole planet full of competitors on zoom calls.

VG31

KaneToad wrote: »

I have zero interest in the social aspects of work/learning. I interact socially with people of my choosing not with people I am randomly thrown together with in a work environment.

I find this a bit ridiculous to be honest. You could make the exact same argument with school and college. You're obviously not going to get along with everyone but assuming you have at least some interest in the area you work in you're bound to have common interests or at least get along with some people.

Like many people, most of my friends are from school or college where I was just "randomly thrown together" with them. Remote working and learning in particular is fine when you have well established friendships but before then how to you expect people to actually meet others? Do you only want to socialise with people with through sports teams, clubs or other specific interest groups?

VG31

I'm fully in favour of flexibility and personal choice when it comes to WFH, but there's a cohort of 100% WFH posters here who are condescending and dismissive to people who actually don't want full time WFH. There's an impression some give of regarding them as wasters or losers.

Padre_Pio

VG31 wrote: »

I'm fully in favour of flexibility and personal choice when it comes to WFH, but there's a cohort of 100% WFH posters here who are condescending and dismissive to people who actually don't want full time WFH. There's an impression some give of regarding them as wasters or losers.

I don't think people should be treated like Luddites for wanting to work in an office and meet people, collaborate face to face, socialise, go for lunch and interact like humans should interact.

I get that WFH is preferable for people, who based on responses in this thread, own a home with adequate space, have families, have long commutes, seem to dislike their co-workers, have enough of a social circle that they don't want/need more friends.

[Deleted User]

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I don't think people should be treated like Luddites for wanting to work in an office and meet people, collaborate face to face, socialise, go for lunch and interact like humans should interact.

I get that WFH is preferable for people, who based on responses in this thread, own a home with adequate space, have families, have long commutes, seem to dislike their co-workers, have enough of a social circle that they don't want/need more friends.

It sounds like hybrid is the best case for all then. Everyone gets a bit of what they want.

Padre_Pio

Deleted User wrote: »

It sounds like hybrid is the best case for all then. Everyone gets a bit of what they want.

As I said before, you can get the best of both worlds, or just as easily get the worst of both worlds.

[Deleted User]

Padre_Pio wrote: »

As I said before, you can get the best of both worlds, or just as easily get the worst of both worlds.

I've already experienced both, so I know how it will turn out. I can't wait.