emigration

Deleted User wrote: »

Sacrifice is often required if you want something better than what you have.

I lived in 6 different towns in Ireland before I eventually left Ireland itself. I moved around because that was where the jobs were. I certainly didn't want to live in most of those places, but I recognised short term (a few years) pain for long term benefits.

You can say that everyone has different circumstances, but the truth remains that, in Ireland, there are a wide range of opportunities for personal/career development. If people choose not to avail of them, that's on them.

I failed my first year at college (not university). Failed computer science, and then, moved to Business studies, where I struggled for the next three years, failing my exams often.. eventually graduating with a diploma, not a degree. I returned over a decade later to get my degree, then the honors component, and then the Masters... So, I completely understand the difficulties that people face, because I went through many of them myself. There are far more opportunities now in Ireland, than when I went through it myself... also a hell of a lot more tolerance and patience.

yes, but theres sacrifices, and then theres deep unhappiness, most people in fact need to be near their familiy and friends, these are critical human needs.

yes there are far more opportunities in the ireland of today, but still we fail a significant proportion in society, many could simply never make it to third level, drop out rates are also relatively high at the early stages of third level. if you struggled at the earlier stages in our educational system, you may forget about moving to third level, again of course, theres exceptions to the rule, but....

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yes, but theres sacrifices, and then theres deep unhappiness, most people in fact need to be near their familiy and friends, these are critical human needs.

They're not critical human needs. Anyway the size of Ireland is so small, that you can drive to most places within a few hours. Just as flights from European countries can bring people back for visits.

In any case, you're moving away from the original points.

yes there are far more opportunities in the ireland of today, but still we fail a significant proportion in society, many could simply never make it to third level, drop out rates are also relatively high at the early stages of third level. if you struggled at the earlier stages in our educational system, you may forget about moving to third level, again of course, theres exceptions to the rule, but....

There will always be some people who fail... that doesn't change the fact that there are further opportunities provided for them to avail of, and the chance to repeat is present in most circumstances.

If you are not suited to the area of study or career you've chosen. Change.

pgj2015

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yes, but theres sacrifices, and then theres deep unhappiness, most people in fact need to be near their familiy and friends, these are critical human needs.

yes there are far more opportunities in the ireland of today, but still we fail a significant proportion in society, many could simply never make it to third level, drop out rates are also relatively high at the early stages of third level. if you struggled at the earlier stages in our educational system, you may forget about moving to third level, again of course, theres exceptions to the rule, but....

Is this really the case? what about the all the Irish people who moved to the UK, Australia ad the USA over the years and still do. Most move alone. I know a guy in his 20's with a leaving cert applied, no qualifications. He moved to Australia a couple of years ago alone. He is a great worker and has worked really hard. He is making big money in an unskilled job over there, he bought 2 houses in Ireland lately. He had 2 businesses here in Ireland at 23 years old. Hard work and drive is all you need.

Deleted User wrote: »

They're not critical human needs. Anyway the size of Ireland is so small, that you can drive to most places within a few hours. Just as flights from European countries can bring people back for visits.

In any case, you're moving away from the original points.

There will always be some people who fail... that doesn't change the fact that there are further opportunities provided for them to avail of, and the chance to repeat is present in most circumstances.

If you are not suited to the area of study or career you've chosen. Change.

again, you re over simplifying, we dont all have these opportunities, being around family and friends are critical human needs, we all need these things, in order to live a health and happy life. yes ireland is indeed small, but after a hard weeks work, do people truly have the energy or time to drive to loved ones, possible an hour or so away, noting, many are simply experiencing 'time poverty' due to their living and working situations.

again, over simplification, our educational and training systems are simply unfit for purpose, many struggle at the early stages, this can have detrimental psychological effects, leading to all sorts of social and psychological dysfunctions, leading people to never return to training.

again, over simplification, if you have debts, kids etc etc, changing isnt exactly straightforward, its just not

pgj2015 wrote: »

Is this really the case? what about the all the Irish people who moved to the UK, Australia ad the USA over the years and still do. Most move alone. I know a guy in his 20's with a leaving cert applied, no qualifications. He moved to Australia a couple of years ago alone. He is a great worker and has worked really hard. He is making big money in an unskilled job over there, he bought 2 houses in Ireland lately. He had 2 businesses here in Ireland at 23 years old. Hard work and drive is all you need.

yes, how many people have in fact permanently emigrated?

i also know a chap that moved to oz in the 90's, hes now probably a multi millionaire, and best of luck to him, he to is also a damn hard worker

cnocbui

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, you re over simplifying, we dont all have these opportunities, being around family and friends are critical human needs, we all need these things, in order to live a health and happy life. ...

You are simply wrong. My parents both left their parents behind and emigrated from their original countries. I did the same, as did my wife. My brother did the same, as did his wife.

I think you must have a very narrow frame of reference and limited exposure to people outside your comfort zone.

cnocbui wrote: »

You are simply wrong. My parents both left their parents behind and emigrated from their original countries. I did the same, as did my wife. My brother did the same, as did his wife.

I think you must have a very narrow frame of reference and limited exposure to people outside your comfort zone.

yes, people of course can and do do this, but it can and does have negative effects psychologically to those involved, this can unfortunately lead to highly dysfunctional outcomes, i know many that in fact eventually had breakdowns from such actions, and then yes of course, some are affected limitedly by such actions

Ireland is an amazing country to live in. We are very privileged.

pgj2015

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yes, how many people have in fact permanently emigrated?

i also know a chap that moved to oz in the 90's, hes now probably a multi millionaire, and best of luck to him, he to is also a damn hard worker

Loads. Look at all the English born players that have played soccer for Ireland, their parents and grand parents left Ireland and never came back, except for visits. Look at all the players in the English soccer team with Irish names.
You don't have to move abroad permanently though, go make money, then come back to Ireland after a few years if you like.

Did the guy you know move back to Ireland?

boardlady

I agree that everyone should do a stint living / long term travelling if at all possible. You will either be very happy and enjoy your life/experience, or you will have the 'grass is always greener' mentality removed for you. I was delighted to get back to Ireland each time after travel/living abroad. Most bizarrely, it gave me a love for our climate!

NSAman

cnocbui wrote: »

You are simply wrong. My parents both left their parents behind and emigrated from their original countries. I did the same, as did my wife. My brother did the same, as did his wife.

I think you must have a very narrow frame of reference and limited exposure to people outside your comfort zone.

I think you will find, many who are unhappy about the limited opportunities in Ireland are the ones that leave.

They have more "get up and go" than many happy to survive with family and friends. Those that leave tend to be more independent, adventurous and learn that self-reliance is vital.

Could be just the people I have met in the past 30 years abroad in many countries.

JustAThought

I think what people forget are the other factors that make such an important contribution to quality of life
- THE WEATHER
- living in a city or country where outdoor activities are plannable, where there is an outdoor culture and a SUMMER
- living where after work the only options arn’t just home based or commercial activities but can be based around long warm evenings outdoors and a healtheir lifestlye
- having a civic minded society - Do the Dutch of French or in many cases Americans put up or tolerate the bull**** services we do - no.
- living in a city that is actively policed and where junkies, shooting up, habitual begging is just not tolerated
- living inna city that is cleaned and the civic authorities are accountable for the quality of the place and amenities - safe civic parks, outdoor amenities, outdoor Public toilets & manicured open pools and beach areas, playgrounds that have gardens attached - not bleak desolate soccer pitches but fragrant, tended, landscaped flowering civic amenities
- try the joy of working and not having 45% of your salary automatically taken at source every month. You work to try and exist on 2 weeks wages here every month. The unimaginable joy of keeping much more of what you work for. You shouldn’t knock it til you try it.

- functioning services - beds in hospitals, sMe day referrals to specialist clinics, your elderly parents or child not discarded on a trolley on a corridor in a medical emergency, or God forbid - in Canada - no medical bills. Imagine that - if ypu got a diagnosis of cancer - all you have to focus on is getting well - not losing your house because you can’t work

But most the sense that there are options, opportunities, justice for you as a contributing, working adult , a chance for a better lifestyle and life, and not working to exist and survive.

Lots of reasons to try it & go even for a couple of years.

The pity is we don’t even record the thousands leaving out shores every year. And many don’t return.

And the new trick with the ESRI os researching & promoting NEW ways of taxing the working poor even more. Its just heartwrenching and endlessly depressing.

In no other european coumtry is ambition and hard work taxed so harshly and rewarded so poorly. Here I shudder to think what ‘life’ will be like for the hardworking poor in ten or fifteen years - tens of thousands laughing up their holes and on the doss day and night while those working paying for everything and being crucified left right and centre for everything - housing, commuting, childcare, while the dossers and drifters loll at their expense and chug away on the backs of anyone elses efforts.

No wonder people are just giving up and walking away. And having experienced the better options and attitudes abroad, I frankly don’t blame then.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, you re over simplifying,

Actually, life is rather simple. Hard, but not terribly complicated.

we dont all have these opportunities, being around family and friends are critical human needs, we all need these things, in order to live a health and happy life. yes ireland is indeed small, but after a hard weeks work, do people truly have the energy or time to drive to loved ones, possible an hour or so away, noting, many are simply experiencing 'time poverty' due to their living and working situations.

Again, they're not critical human needs. Look, it's the second time you've said it... then prove it. Gimme some research that says that it's a necessary requirement (a need). It's simply a desire, and one that can be sacrificed quite easily to provide the chance at better opportunities. If you expect opportunities to be made available for you without leaving your home, you're drastically limiting your options.

But that's maybe the point here. You're expecting opportunities to be provided without the person needing to do anything for themselves.

I live in a major city, and daily I would travel 2 hours by subway (and a later bus connection) to see my girlfriend, and then later, come back 2 hours so that I could be at home in time for work. Your expectations are bizarre to me.

again, over simplification, our educational and training systems are simply unfit for purpose, many struggle at the early stages, this can have detrimental psychological effects, leading to all sorts of social and psychological dysfunctions, leading people to never return to training.

You're bending over backwards to provide excuses. I've been a teacher and I'm now a lecturer... and I'm aware of the limitations of education. I'm also aware of the limitations of students and that they're often lacking in their own motivations, because others are so quick to find excuses for them.

It doesn't matter if Irish education is fit for purpose or not (although, it actually is). You pass your exams, you get your qualification, and that qualification eases your way into the workplace. And yes, I'm simplifying this because you're repeatedly showing an unwillingness to appreciate the reality of the situation.

again, over simplification, if you have debts, kids etc etc, changing isnt exactly straightforward, its just not

Where did I say it was straightforward? This is the problem with your posts... you drift in responding, often introducing points that weren't made, just so you can voice an opinion on it. Just like your repeated claims of my oversimplifying things, when you've shown an avoidance of anything that isn't generalised, but at the same time, seeking to dismiss such generalisations because "some" people are different.

ancapailldorcha

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yes, how many people have in fact permanently emigrated?

i also know a chap that moved to oz in the 90's, hes now probably a multi millionaire, and best of luck to him, he to is also a damn hard worker

I'd say several. Seems to be common enough here in the UK at least that many who leave just get to a stage where they don't see themselves ever moving back.

I've decisions to make that I keep putting off about where I want to settle down, live and what I want to do. I've identified options in Limerick as my ultimate backstop but I'd be much happier trying to see how living on the continent would be (if I had to leave the UK), picking up a language and seeing if I could get a decent job working for the EU who insist on being able to speak multiple languages annoyingly.

If I moved to, say, Dublin where most opportunities are, all I'd be doing is trading London's problems for the same ones in Dublin but with a heady mix of feral youths thrown into the mix.

Timmyr

cnocbui wrote: »

I have had intentions to emigrate that pre-date Covid by years. Current plan is to sell my property and then move to New Zealand. Bit hard to get in there at the moment, but shifting property takes time, so hard to time it.

I'm curious, what visa are you planning on getting to come to NZ?

cnocbui

Timmyr wrote: »

I'm curious, what visa are you planning on getting to come to NZ?

My Australian passport.

shadyslimshady

Employment is crap for young people at the minute and the 3.5 rule is completely pissing off people. The CBI have no choice but to have this though or the price of houses will go crazy. Health care aint great either but people think health insurance costs a fortune where it doesn't in reality.

Its not the worst country to live in but working from home now will make it 10 times better.

The DayDream

Unfortunately the phenomenon of the rich screwing everyone over and making necessities like housing insanely expensive isn't limited to Ireland. It's basically worldwide.

I'll never get a mortgage for a house here and my mother is losing hers, the council is taking it back after she dies so I won't get that. She owns 1/5th of a piece of my late grandfathers land, her brother owns the other 4/5ths after buying the other siblings out.

I could maybe afford to build a little log cabin on that to live in but apparently you can't get planning permission for those so that's a non runner too.

I'm thinking moving abroad is still the best option because at least in other countries I won't have as many rainy nights in my tent or cardboard box or whatever I'm forced to sleep in. I certainly don't intend to keep handing over sick amounts of cash to shysty Irish landlords for mouldy kips, or to house share with strangers.

I think there will have to be some kind of communal living spaces in the future, like large apartment blocks full of en suite bedrooms similar to nursing homes or dorms but for people who are healthy and middle aged and just can't afford their own place, where you can share but still have a private area and some dignity.

dxhound2005

I think you might be in Dublin? There are far cheaper houses in other places.

https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/laois/houses?from=20&pageSize=20

If more people want to live somewhere then demand will push up property prices. Instead of considering moving thousands of miles away, and possibly to another crowded city, consider moving somewhere in Ireland where you could afford to get on the "property ladder".

RulesOfNature

I can tell you from a 20-something perspective that there is no fvcking chance of fixing this dump. I would tell anyone from here to leave at the first chance they get. Ireland is a terrible place if you are a hardworking, intelligent, motivated person. You will get stifled at every turn either by government bureaucracy and over-the-top taxation, or nepotism from your boss. The standard of living is higher elsewhere, much higher. Don't believe what other people say. Expats romanticize this place all the time, but trust me, they are living a better life abroad. You pay the same price for a house here that is half the size of a home in America.

Ireland is a country that thrives on holding the productive back. Why do you think every single person who becomes moderately successful leaves? From golfers to tech bros, they all leave.

Google the wages of all the RTE anchors and hosts, now compare it to the wages of world leaders and presidents. RTE anchors get paid more than the President of the United States. According to CSO the average Irish household is 2 months of wages away from the poverty line, and it's getting worse with the COVID lockdown economic depression. While this is happening they're also building the world's most expensive hospital, indeed one of the most expensive structures ever built in the world. The Central Bank has stated in certain terms that they want to decrease homeownership and increase renting. The housing crisis is by design, it is not a disaster from their perspective.

You will never own a house.

Just leave it's not getting any better.

^^^^^^

Clearly never lived abroad. Off you go and let us know how you get on. Sure houses are cheap as chips in OZ, NZ and Canada or everywhere else that has a high functioning economy.

Irelands not perfect but it's not the worst. There are opportunities in abundance and it will take travel and perspective to realise that.

RulesOfNature

Northernlily wrote: »

^^^^^^

Clearly never lived abroad. Off you go and let us know how you get on. Sure houses are cheap as chips in OZ, NZ and Canada or everywhere else that has a high functioning economy.

Irelands not perfect but it's not the worst. There are opportunities in abundance and it will take travel and perspective to realise that.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Imagine using 'off you go' as some sort of zinger when literally everyones moving out LOL

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-suspiciousat-growing-numbers-flying-out-ofcountry-40483434.html

Yes off I go along with my Engineers, scientists, architects, mechanics and neurosurgeons peers who are all emigrating.

I hold a triple citizenship. Ireland is legitimately just a trap. It is shocking that a country like Portugal, which is apparently poorer (on paper) has better services and infrastructure. You'll see the scam that Ireland is once you go to a 'poor' country and realize how much better the services are when the politicians are only a fraction as corrupt at this 'rich' nation.

Another expat here, getting fierce annoyed with clowns here throwing up affordable houses in Ireland that are in ****ing longford. Absolutely no good to a lot of people, hence the low prices, it's not a commutable distance to Dublin so it's off the table. If you're going to take house prices from Vancouver for example then atleast compare them with Dublin. Or if you want to compare longford then you can compare it with this. A 4 bed, 2 bath with land, barn, swimming pool etc. And it's cheaper than the one in longford !

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/258-E-Torbrook-Rd-Annapolis-NS-B0P-1W0/2070491432_zpid/

I am about to hit 30 this year and I only up sticks and left in January this year and yes I'm glad I did it, the amount of Irish I've met here whest of the Atlantic who have been here 5/10/15/20 years and don't want to go back is a lot. One lad there I was talking to from the north, his wife (who is from this part of the world) wants to live in Ireland, do the whole family thing etc, but he's completely against it, there's been fights about it I believe.

People go on about ireland being a very wealthy country etc, but I'm sorry there's an awful lot of us who made money by breaking our bolloxs and getting rode by the tax man. Where I am now it's not necessary, I can have my Monday to Friday 9-5 with pension and benifits coming out of my hole and have a very decent salary after tax every week without killing myself.

I think it might be slightly unfair too on people who have not lived away from Ireland for any considerable amount of time to even have an opinion. How can you have an opinion on something you haven't done or seen yourself ?

EDIT: just to add, I posted recently on another thread about Dublin too over the little pricks and dart incident, I gave a little paragraph there too if anyone is interested.

RulesOfNature wrote: »

I can tell you from a 20-something perspective that there is no fvcking chance of fixing this dump. I would tell anyone from here to leave at the first chance they get. Ireland is a terrible place if you are a hardworking, intelligent, motivated person. You will get stifled at every turn either by government bureaucracy and over-the-top taxation, or nepotism from your boss. The standard of living is higher elsewhere, much higher. Don't believe what other people say. Expats romanticize this place all the time, but trust me, they are living a better life abroad. You pay the same price for a house here that is half the size of a home in America.

Ireland is a country that thrives on holding the productive back. Why do you think every single person who becomes moderately successful leaves? From golfers to tech bros, they all leave.

Google the wages of all the RTE anchors and hosts, now compare it to the wages of world leaders and presidents. RTE anchors get paid more than the President of the United States. According to CSO the average Irish household is 2 months of wages away from the poverty line, and it's getting worse with the COVID lockdown economic depression. While this is happening they're also building the world's most expensive hospital, indeed of the most expensive structures ever built in the world. The Central Bank has stated in certain terms that they want to decrease homeownership and increase renting. The housing crisis is by design, it is not a disaster from their perspective.

You will never own a house.

Just leave it's not getting any better.

As a 30 something who was a p1ssed off 20 something struggling to get any savings together. I say just go abroad, if nothing else it is good for a mental break from Ireland and then you can reassess after a few years. I was abroad for shy of 10 years. Happy out back in Ireland now. For all it's faults, it is a lovely country to live in.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Another expat here, getting fierce annoyed with clowns here throwing up affordable houses in Ireland that are in ****ing longford. Absolutely no good to a lot of people, hence the low prices, it's not a commutable distance to Dublin so it's off the table. If you're going to take house prices from Vancouver for example then atleast compare them with Dublin. Or if you want to compare longford then you can compare it with this. A 4 bed, 2 bath with land, barn, swimming pool etc. And it's cheaper than the one in longford !

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/258-E-Torbrook-Rd-Annapolis-NS-B0P-1W0/2070491432_zpid/

I am about to hit 30 this year and I only up sticks and left in January this year and yes I'm glad I did it, the amount of Irish I've met here whest of the Atlantic who have been here 5/10/15/20 years and don't want to go back is a lot. One lad there I was talking to from the north, his wife (who is from this part of the world) wants to live in Ireland, do the whole family thing etc, but he's completely against it, there's been fights about it I believe.

People go on about ireland being a very wealthy country etc, but I'm sorry there's an awful lot of us who made money by breaking our bolloxs and getting rode by the tax man. Where I am now it's not necessary, I can have my Monday to Friday 9-5 with pension and benifits coming out of my hole and have a very decent salary after tax every week without killing myself.

I think it might be slightly unfair too on people who have not lived away from Ireland for any considerable amount of time to even have an opinion. How can you have an opinion on something you haven't done or seen yourself ?

EDIT: just to add, I posted recently on another thread about Dublin too over the little pricks and dart incident, I gave a little paragraph there too if anyone is interested.

Assuming you mean Canada. If it's the US, you'd be killing yourself every week for your salary. :pac:

PommieBast

RulesOfNature wrote: »

Ireland is a country that thrives on holding the productive back. Why do you think every single person who becomes moderately successful leaves? From golfers to tech bros, they all leave.

Having spent pretty close to 50:50 of my time since Covid started split between the UK and Ireland I can tell you that the Irish state fundamentally does not understand people needing to get on with their lives. Just look at all those people who could not get their passports and GNIB cards returned for months and as a result lost jobs and study places. UK is highly dysfunctional but at least it was possible to get stuff done.

dxhound2005

PommieBast wrote: »

Having spent pretty close to 50:50 of my time since Covid started split between the UK and Ireland I can tell you that the Irish state fundamentally does not understand people needing to get on with their lives. Just look at all those people who could not get their passports and GNIB cards returned for months and as a result lost jobs and study places. UK is highly dysfunctional but at least it was possible to get stuff done.

The UK is just a few miles from me, and I have been there often. It is much the same as my part of Ireland. I don't think I would like a highly dysfunctional place.

PommieBast

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The UK is just a few miles from me, and I have been there often. It is much the same as my part of Ireland. I don't think I would like a highly dysfunctional place.

To me it looks like the choice between dysfunctional and nonfunctional

NSAman

Wompa1 wrote: »

Assuming you mean Canada. If it's the US, you'd be killing yourself every week for your salary. :pac:

Maybe, but there are ways of making a living without the tax man taking over half of it AND YES you work hard but you also make more.

PLUS, there are a hell of a lot more opportunities in the US than in Ireland for many.

Housing where I am is affordable (at the moment), the cost of living is rising dramatically (thanks to Biden) and the taxes while at the moment are good, if the Democrats get their way will be as bad as Ireland.

Despite all its faults and failings, the US has many benefits for immigrants, if you can get a visa/green card!