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Forced to work from home

Padre_Pio

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

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[Deleted User]

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I've calmed down a bit since I started this thread and as another poster said, you have to find the positives.
I think I need to take a look at my own job and see if I can apportion certain tasks to certain in-office days.

Thanks everyone for your feedback, its nice to get a variety of perspectives.

Hi OP. Your attempt to bring this thread to a rational and reasonable conclusion has failed!!

irelandrover

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's very well understood.

What many don't understand is the mathematical consequences of shrinking available desks by 60% and mandating 2 days per week in the office for everyone.

If a company does that, then no amount of talking to your manager, HR or even the cleaner will get you a permanent desk.

My company had 60 desks per 90 employees. They were rarely ever full. Between days off, sick days, and people in meetings there was always a free desk. A few people got a permanent desk as they needed specialist chairs/ equipment for health reasons.

CosmicFool

floorpie wrote: »

I'm also hearing rumours of the same thing in my place.

Will I be paid for the company's use of my facilities (room, equipment, electricity, heating etc)? Or is this essentially a permanent pay cut and worse conditions?

I'm especially annoyed that it seems like they'll mandate a day or two in office a week. So not only will the employer get free use of my rented house, but I can't even move to a low cost area of the country.

I'm very annoyed by the whole thing but it seems most people are in favour of WFH.

Would you not save money in travel expenses?

floorpie

CosmicFool wrote: »

Would you not save money in travel expenses?

Why do people keep saying this

I can walk to work or I can hire a limo every day, my company don't need to adjust my wages to account for the way I choose to commute, and it's none of their business. On the other hand, if my company requires that I go to an event in a limo then they should pay for the limo.

In other words, it's irrelevant whether or not I save money by not having to travel. Conversely, if I have to spend money on my employer's behalf to do the work they require then they should reimburse.

Padre_Pio

ineedeuro wrote: »

First post says everyone is hot desk
Then quickly this is confirmed as a quarter of the company will have permanent desks

So if a quarter of the company has permanent desk then just request one. Job done.

Sorry, to clarify again, the point in bold was suggested by us who need more space for test gear and other equipment.

It was rejected.

Calahonda52

CosmicFool wrote: »

Would you not save money in travel expenses?

Yes you will save the costs of going to and from the office which are not allowable as a tax deduction.
More importantly, if you spend 2 hrs each way, even in in floorpie's limo:D, whats the productivity/leisure time cost

[Deleted User]

I remember as a young employee a more established colleague who worked from home 95% of the time feeling very hard done by when he lost his private, corner desk with a view.

He sat there once a month on average.
He didn't get much sympathy.

ineedeuro

floorpie wrote: »

Why do people keep saying this

I can walk to work or I can hire a limo every day, my company don't need to adjust my wages to account for the way I choose to commute, and it's none of their business. On the other hand, if my company requires that I go to an event in a limo then they should pay for the limo.

In other words, it's irrelevant whether or not I save money by not having to travel. Conversely, if I have to spend money on my employer's behalf to do the work they require then they should reimburse.

If you are required to be in the office then you either have to buy/rent a location close to work or commute to work. This is at your own expense

If you can work from home this means that cost is gone. For me that is a significant reduction on fuel/travel costs every month.

Plus if you don't have to go to office it opens up living further away from office, this can allow cheaper rent or even to buy a house at a cheaper price as outside a main cit. Of course this is all based on working in a city centre and not everyone does.

ineedeuro

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Sorry, to clarify again, the point in bold was suggested by us who need more space for test gear and other equipment.

It was rejected.

Have you personally gone to HR/manager and explained why you want a permanent desk and want to work from the office 5 days a week?

Jim2007

floorpie wrote: »

Yeah, perhaps there'll be extra capacity in the short term, but if the motivation here is to reduce wasted space then I imagine capacity will reduce such that offices are essentially full at all times (likely filled with the people doing their mandatory days).

Mandatory days usually get dropped pretty quickly because companies can’t justify the cost of office space and parking just to bring people in for the sake of bringing them.

Of course the next logical step is to question why you need to continue to even have an office in an expensive part of town or even in the town if there are few or no staff there. When I moved to Zürich in the late 80’s all the major Swiss banks had their HQ down town, today they are somewhere out in the sticks because very few people go there anymore so it is cheaper to locate out of town.

Jim2007

floorpie wrote: »

In other words, it's irrelevant whether or not I save money by not having to travel

It may not be relevant to you, but I don’t know anyone who is not interested in having a couple extra K a year to spend on something else.

And most people don’t incur much by way of additional expense by working from home. Once the kids are old enough to be going out to school the house will be empty for a large part of the day. And pretty much ever house these days have printers, punch and staples.

So while you may get upset by the company not paying you for the use of your stapler most people will not see it that way.

floorpie

Jim2007 wrote: »

It may not be relevant to you, but I don’t know anyone who is not interested in having a couple extra K a year to spend on something else.

It's of course relevant to me, but it's relevant to me only how I use my money in my personal life.

And most people don’t incur much by way of additional expense by working from home. Once the kids are old enough to be going out to school the house will be empty for a large part of the day. And pretty much ever house these days have printers, punch and staples.

So while you may get upset by the company not paying you for the use of your stapler most people will not see it that way.

I'm not talking about 50c worth of staples, I'm talking about, in my case, €1000s in electricity a year, and probably for the average person (1 laptop, 2 monitors running 10 hours a day) at least €400 a year. Multiply by the number of people WFH. Then add heating through winter. Even on the dole you get a fuel allowance

I'm not asking to be compensated for, e.g., my work desk being in my bedroom (which imo would also be a reasonable demand, but ignore that for now), I'm talking about direct costs.

What this cost is offset by (how much you're saving on trains, how much you're saving on Starbucks, whatever) is irrelevant to my company. These "savings" can NOT be factored in to the costs that I'm incurring for the company.

Of course the next logical step is to question why you need to continue to even have an office in an expensive part of town or even in the town if there are few or no staff there. When I moved to Zürich in the late 80’s all the major Swiss banks had their HQ down town, today they are somewhere out in the sticks because very few people go there anymore so it is cheaper to locate out of town.

Agreed. Let us WFH from Switzerland or up a mountain in Kerry or wherever we want. Get rid of mandatory office days, if our permanent workspace is to be imposed on our home.

ineedeuro

floorpie wrote: »

It's of course relevant to me, but it's relevant to me only how I use my money in my personal life.

I'm not talking about 50c worth of staples, I'm talking about, in my case, €1000s in electricity a year, and probably for the average person (1 laptop, 2 monitors) at least €400 a year. Multiply by the number of people WFH. Then add heating through winter. Even on the dole you get a fuel allowance

What this cost is offset by (how much you're saving on trains, how much you're saving on Starbucks, whatever) is irrelevant to my company. These "savings" can NOT be factored in to the costs that I'm incurring for the company.

Agreed. Let us WFH from Switzerland or up a mountain in Kerry or wherever we want.

€1,000s in electricity? are you mining bitcoin :P
Laptop will use 300kWh in a year. That's 42 euro for the year. Which I get tax back on. Max with two monitor 100 quid a year

How exactly do you get 1,000s of electricity?

Padre_Pio

ineedeuro wrote: »

Have you personally gone to HR/manager and explained why you want a permanent desk and want to work from the office 5 days a week?

Yes, and I was told that at the moment it's one rule for everyone, no exceptions.
Maybe something will change when everything settles down, but the office layout, desk size, storage etc are all changing to emphasise that the office is a temporary space and encourage people to work from home.

ineedeuro wrote: »

€1,000s in electricity? are you mining bitcoin :P
Laptop will use 300kWh in a year. That's 42 euro for the year. Which I get tax back on. Max with two monitor 100 quid a year

How exactly do you get 1,000s of electricity?

There's an assumption that everyone needs only a laptop and a monitor to do the entirety of their job. This assumption is wrong, especially in the case I described in the OP.
I'm well aware that I personally am in the minority or circumstances when it comes to WFH, that is evidently misunderstood by those who say "sure WHF has been here forever", "sure what more space do you need for a laptop and a screen"

floorpie

ineedeuro wrote: »

€1,000s in electricity? are you mining bitcoin :P
Laptop will use 300kWh in a year. That's 42 euro for the year. Which I get tax back on. Max with two monitor 100 quid a year

How exactly do you get 1,000s of electricity?

My desktop PC has a 1000W PSU and I run GPU jobs for work, then 2 laptops and 2 monitors. My monitors have max power draw 100W and average 60-70W so that's approx €100 each at average cost KWH.

I know this isn't a normal case but I think €400 per year is a reasonable estimate for typical monitors and laptops running 10 hours a day. It's not orders of magnitude off at least.

You get 10% tax back on this.

[Deleted User]

floorpie wrote: »

My desktop PC has a 1000W PSU and I run GPU jobs for work, then 2 laptops and 2 monitors. My monitors have max power draw 100W and average 60-70W so that's approx €100 each at average cost KWH.

I know this isn't a normal case but I think €400 per year is a reasonable estimate for typical monitors and laptops running 10 hours a day. It's not orders of magnitude off at least.

You get 10% tax back on this.

There are solutions for these problems that keep manifesting, your issue appears to be you have no interest in any of them

floorpie

Deleted User wrote: »

There are solutions for these problems that keep manifesting, your issue appears to be you have no interest in any of them

I don't just care about my costs (I'll sort my issues out), I care about yours also

Nobody should have their company's office expenditure imposed on them regardless of what you're now saving on coffee and blah blah blah

Clearly everybody disagrees!

ineedeuro

floorpie wrote: »

I don't just care about my costs (I'll sort my issues out), I care about yours also Nobody should have their company's office expenditure imposed on them regardless of what you're now saving on coffee and blah blah blah

Clearly everybody disagrees!

My options
Option 1: Travel to my office, that is either by car/train. I pay for that transport to/from work but I also waste 2-3 hours per day to commute. Then work 8 hours. Even in the case of the train I need to drive to the station. This means I need to pay fuel/insurance/tax etc for the car. But as mentioned already the 2-3 hours are the most important part for me.

Option 2: Work from home, pay some heating/electric. No stress of rush hour traffic. Work 8 hours and have 2-3 hours spare.

Now maybe I am crazy but my preference is option 2.

Young_gunner

ineedeuro wrote: »

My options
Option 1: Travel to my office, that is either by car/train. I pay for that transport to/from work but I also waste 2-3 hours per day to commute. Then work 8 hours. Even in the case of the train I need to drive to the station. This means I need to pay fuel/insurance/tax etc for the car. But as mentioned already the 2-3 hours are the most important part for me.

Option 2: Work from home, pay some heating/electric. No stress of rush hour traffic. Work 8 hours and have 2-3 hours spare.

Now maybe I am crazy but my preference is option 2.

I don't think you're crazy! the time saving alone makes WFH a very sensible option

Calahonda52

floorpie wrote: »

You get 10% tax back on this.

Source?

[Deleted User]

floorpie wrote: »

My desktop PC has a 1000W PSU and I run GPU jobs for work, then 2 laptops and 2 monitors. My monitors have max power draw 100W and average 60-70W so that's approx €100 each at average cost KWH.

I know this isn't a normal case but I think €400 per year is a reasonable estimate for typical monitors and laptops running 10 hours a day. It's not orders of magnitude off at least.

You get 10% tax back on this.

Yeah, that's a lot of kit to have in your own place just for work.

Just Joe Duffy it and you'll all be back in in no time:-)

floorpie

ineedeuro wrote: »

My options
Option 1: Travel to my office, that is either by car/train. I pay for that transport to/from work but I also waste 2-3 hours per day to commute. Then work 8 hours. Even in the case of the train I need to drive to the station. This means I need to pay fuel/insurance/tax etc for the car. But as mentioned already the 2-3 hours are the most important part for me.

Option 2: Work from home, pay some heating/electric. No stress of rush hour traffic. Work 8 hours and have 2-3 hours spare.

Now maybe I am crazy but my preference is option 2.

You forgot from option 2: Must go to the office 2 days a week. Pay for transport. Waste 2-3 hours per office day. Still need a car and fuel/insurance/tax to drive to the station. Stay living within a commute of your office. If your company is in the city and you rent, stay living in costly accommodation and work and sleep from your bedroom.

Option 3: 100% WFH, live wherever you want.

We're talking about option 2 in the thread

floorpie

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Source?

https://www.revenue.ie/en/jobs-and-pensions/eworking/what-costs-can-you-claim-for.aspx

I only learned about this in this thread, I haven't claimed.

jakiah

floorpie wrote: »

I don't just care about my costs (I'll sort my issues out), I care about yours also Nobody should have their company's office expenditure imposed on them regardless of what you're now saving on coffee and blah blah blah

It sounds like you think your role isnt suitable for WFH or Hybrid. You should tell your employer you want a permanent desk. Lots of people do this already. Again, this is not new.

I prefer hybrid, so thats what I arranged with my employer.

[Deleted User]

floorpie wrote: »

I don't just care about my costs (I'll sort my issues out), I care about yours also Nobody should have their company's office expenditure imposed on them regardless of what you're now saving on coffee and blah blah blah

Clearly everybody disagrees!

you can get up to €3.20 per day spent working at home without paying any tax if your employer agrees to that scheme. I also agree that companies should subsidise home offices, i.e. seats and laptop stands for ergonomic purposes. In fact they should do this or they will probably be class action suits in the future.

[Deleted User]

floorpie wrote: »

My desktop PC has a 1000W PSU and I run GPU jobs for work, then 2 laptops and 2 monitors. My monitors have max power draw 100W and average 60-70W so that's approx €100 each at average cost KWH.

I know this isn't a normal case but I think €400 per year is a reasonable estimate for typical monitors and laptops running 10 hours a day. It's not orders of magnitude off at least.

You get 10% tax back on this.

Those monitors sound expensive, are they company issue? Do you need two on for ten hours every day?

Padre_Pio

fvp4 wrote: »

Those monitors sound expensive, are they company issue? Do you need two on for ten hours every day?

I think we're scraping the barrel if we're turning off or turning down the brightness on monitors to save electricity. :pac:

floorpie

fvp4 wrote: »

Those monitors sound expensive, are they company issue? Do you need two on for ten hours every day?

Regular cheap 4K monitors, and that's a normal enough power draw for >26" at daytime brightness I believe. I think everybody needs two, everyone in my place is provided with two, and 10 hours is the normal time you'd have equipment on each day.

The €3.20 per day you mention is a good estimate for the average daily costs we're incurring when WFH, and I'd be happy enough if we're all getting that as standard.

Jim2007

Agreed. Let us WFH from Switzerland or up a mountain in Kerry or wherever we want.

Living abroad is not really possible because there are no permits to cover the remote working concept. Even the EU free movement does not cover it - they assume you are employed in the state, there for family reunion or have retired to that state and your income is not derived from economic activity.

The result is that you don’t have access to services that would allow you to build a permanent life there. Short periods are possible, but that becomes a bit of a pain after a while.

[Deleted User]

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

It is very hard to work from home if not properly kitted out. Hard to get a quiet area.

PAYE people should get tax credits towards equipping their own home offices.

You need a desk (that you can rise so you can stand), screen, printer, etc

By right an external office.

Rent in a hotpot office should be tax deductible as well.