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Forced to work from home

Padre_Pio

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

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the14thwarrior

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it is BS.

Under flexi time working the max flexi leave allowed to accrue is 1 / 1.5 days per four week period. The same limit applies to how much flexi leave you are allowed take each month.

Flexi leave cannot be banked and taken as a block and no one can accrue 5 weeks worth in one year.

If there is any truth to the anecdote, the couple involved may have used the the shorter working year scheme (SWYS) to extend their summer. Which is UNPAID leave.

But it definitely wasn't accrued flexi leave. Have a look at the Circular on Flexi time working. I'm sure if you google it you'll find it handy enough.

defo BS.
in olden days of yore there were stories like this, and they were true enough for some people. not for a long time now. wouldn't be allowed. wouldn't be accepted, not in complience and they have really cracked down on all this flexi leave abuse. some places make you take any flexi leave within the next four weeks. in fact, this is the rule, the norm, and you can't bank it. use it or lose it.

Padre_Pio

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Can't see us sitting cheek by jowel for 8 hours a day anymore.
The virus will still be there and transmissible. Not everyone will be vsccinated

If you're going to work the expectation will be to be vaccinated, unless you have some mitigating circumstance.
Otherwise stay at home.

[Deleted User]

Cyrus wrote: »

we are going to social distance forever?

Can't see us sitting cheek by jowel for 8 hours a day anymore.
The virus will still be there and transmissible. Not everyone will be vsccinated

Bass Reeves

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

With that one action, a middle manager, ie of a species which many posters on this thread regard as a useless waste of space, probably did more for morale, workforce retention and product quality than the rest of the room did all month. Someone who can do the right thing at the right time is usually very valuable in a team.

Managers and workers like that are the lads that seldom say anything at a meeting. They seldom as questions at meetings. They are more often than not excellent managers or workers. Often they have reached a management level or a job that they are happy with. Often they are in position that are more financially rewarding than the average.

However when they do speak it to make a point, often they take no prisoners and they leave everyone know exactly where they stand on the issue they spoke about. They never waffle it's straight to the point.....or the juglar

[Deleted User]

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

That is how it is applied in your organisation. Others are different. .

Please name the organisation that allows 5 weeks worth of flexi leave to be accrued and taken all at one time.

Thanks.

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

Under flexi time working the max flexi leave allowed to accrue is 1 / 1.5 days per four week period. The same limit applies to how much flexi leave you are allowed take each month.

Flexi leave cannot be banked and taken as a block and no one can accrue 5 weeks worth in one year.

That is how it is applied in your organisation. Others are different. I know of one place where stunts like that described were possible (since clamped down on).

Bass Reeves wrote: »

... At the end of the third meeting there was an older mid level manager in his early 50's spoke up. .... All you need is one lad with a pair of gahones

With that one action, a middle manager, ie of a species which many posters on this thread regard as a useless waste of space, probably did more for morale, workforce retention and product quality than the rest of the room did all month. Someone who can do the right thing at the right time is usually very valuable in a team.

shadyslimshady

Some people live to work and think their center of attention in the office when in reality every hates them and like to assert their authority.

Some managers get off on thinking the people under them fear them which is pretty sad.

Others love to lick arse and be delighted when a higher up pat's them on the pat for working a 60 hour week and been available out of hours for no extra pay.

Everyone knows these sort of idiots who live to work.
Once an office is providing a hot desk to work for they will still come up with excuses.

If a company had 100 employees and 90 worked from home and 10 were allowed to work from the office they would still give out wanting the 90 back in the office.

[Deleted User]

ineedeuro wrote: »

It's a funny old World. Prior to lockdown everyone wanted to work from home. Well the majority anyway

The thing is we've had the worst possible version of working from home. Work done, nothing to do, nowhere to go, everywhere closed. Once that changes we'll see what WFH is really like. August evenings with the pubs open etc.
Even going into autumn the cafes and bistros with the sense to not be locked up and empty at 6pm will make a killing.

Now people are getting the option to WFH and they want rent paid etc.
If the office turns around and tell the same people they can no longer WFH and have to go into office they will start complaining about commute time.
Some people you just can't please

Those people talking about rent for the company using their equipment are the ones who know their job description letter for letter. Any change other than a payrise would be treated by them with suspicion at the very least. Most had zero interest in working from home to begin with.

irelandrover

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm going to conduct a poll. I'll keep count.

Who wants 100% work from home?

Hit "thanks" on my post for YES.

From this poll I can see that 100% of people want to work from home full time.

[Deleted User]

Ken Mc Carthy wrote: »

No idea why you'd call BS on that.......pre covid it WAS indeed permitted / allowed to accrue extra days and then take in one "fowl swoop" in the public sector. Any chance you can post a link to anything showing where accused days cannot be banked & used for an "extended" holiday?????

Because it is BS.

Under flexi time working the max flexi leave allowed to accrue is 1 / 1.5 days per four week period. The same limit applies to how much flexi leave you are allowed take each month.

Flexi leave cannot be banked and taken as a block and no one can accrue 5 weeks worth in one year.

If there is any truth to the anecdote, the couple involved may have used the the shorter working year scheme (SWYS) to extend their summer. Which is UNPAID leave.

But it definitely wasn't accrued flexi leave. Have a look at the Circular on Flexi time working. I'm sure if you google it you'll find it handy enough.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

I call BS. That is not allowed under the terms of flexi working in the public service. The maximum hours that can be accrued is between 1 and 1.5 days per 4 week period, (since HRA in most places the max allowed is still only 1 day) meaning the most anyone can accrue is 13 days per year, not 5 weeks. Also flexi leave can not be banked and taken as a block.

Also accrual of flexi leave has been suspended for anyone working from home since last April due to Covid and has not been restored yet.

No idea why you'd call BS on that.......pre covid it WAS indeed permitted / allowed to accrue extra days and then take in one "fowl swoop" in the public sector. Any chance you can post a link to anything showing where accused days cannot be banked & used for an "extended" holiday?????

floorpie

Jim2007 wrote: »

They are not so random, they are all done in countries where people live to work...

First one is an Irish survey

[Deleted User]

Calahonda52 wrote: »

As an employer, WFH and flexible working are two very different conversations.
Flexible working generally includes a set of core hours.
.
Your model suggests you decide when you work and where, which is not the norm.

Flexible working, certainly in the PS, seems to be somewhat abused based on my experience.
Example, by working "extra hours" which meant coming in early when there were no clients to look after and go home late, this couple accrued 5 weeks flexitime which they took off in one lump, along with 4 weeks annual leave, so they took 9 week holidays in the summer, on the continent in a camper van.

Last summer was a bit different!

This is an abject failure of line management afraid of Forsa

I call BS. That is not allowed under the terms of flexi working in the public service. The maximum number of days that can be accrued / taken off is between 1 and 1.5 days per 4 week period, (since HRA in most places the max allowed is still only 1 day) meaning the most anyone can accrue is 13 days over a year, not 5 weeks. Flexi leave cannot be banked and taken as a block.

Also accrual of flexi leave has been suspended for anyone working from home since last April due to Covid and has not been restored yet.

Jim2007

floorpie wrote: »

I've seen things like this stated a few times in the thread.

I'll just note that many people don't really know what they want, when you dig into it. Of course if you ask people "do you want a nice long commute every day to work" most people will say no. Public surveys (and ones I'm privy to) show this, and show that most people want to to remain WFH. The same surveys show that most people have difficulties with motivation, concentration, creativity, have worse mental health, more stress, more burnout, compared to pre-WFH.

Random top results from Google:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/working-from-home-overtime-laya-healthcare-stress-burnout
https://wearewildgoose.com/uk/news/the-2021-working-from-home-survey/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2020/08/24/working-from-home-is-disliked-by-and-bad-for-most-employees/?sh=359cfacf6734

They are not so random, they are all done in countries where people live to work...

Bass Reeves

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's a special place in hell reserved for people who set 9am meetings.

There was a senior manager once in a place I worked used to schedule 7.45 am meeting. This continued for three weeks meeting were once weekly. He was Dutch I think. At the end of the third meeting there was an older mid level manager in his early 50's spoke up. He had been on holidays for the first two. He has listened to the bitching for the 2-3 days he was back.

He said: '' before you schedule your next meeting I am just letting you know if you schedule it for before 9.30 am I will not be here. I just came to this one to let you know that''

The Dutchman's jaw nearly hit the table and he asked did any of the rest of the people have an issue with the early meetings. Literally everyone spoke up at that stage and that ended the 7.45 am meetings. It looked like he be chairing the next early morning meeting to a bunch of chairs.

All you need is one lad with a pair of gahones

floorpie

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing you've stated suggests WFH should not happen

? It already is happening.

I don't think that the current "it'll be grand" approach to it will/should continue though.

[Deleted User]

floorpie wrote: »

I've seen things like this stated a few times in the thread.

I'll just note that many people don't really know what they want, when you dig into it. Of course if you ask people "do you want a nice long commute every day to work" most people will say no. Public surveys (and ones I'm privy to) show this, and show that most people want to to remain WFH. The same surveys show that most people have difficulties with motivation, concentration, creativity, have worse mental health, more stress, more burnout, compared to pre-WFH.

Random top results from Google:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/working-from-home-overtime-laya-healthcare-stress-burnout
https://wearewildgoose.com/uk/news/the-2021-working-from-home-survey/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2020/08/24/working-from-home-is-disliked-by-and-bad-for-most-employees/?sh=359cfacf6734

Nothing you've stated suggests WFH should not happen

[Deleted User]

floorpie wrote: »

I've seen things like this stated a few times in the thread.

I'll just note that many people don't really know what they want, when you dig into it. Of course if you ask people "do you want a nice long commute every day to work" most people will say no. Public surveys (and ones I'm privy to) show this, and show that most people want to to remain WFH. The same surveys show that most people have difficulties with motivation, concentration, creativity, have worse mental health, more stress, more burnout, compared to pre-WFH.

Random examples:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/working-from-home-overtime-laya-healthcare-stress-burnout
https://wearewildgoose.com/uk/news/the-2021-working-from-home-survey/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2020/08/24/working-from-home-is-disliked-by-and-bad-for-most-employees/?sh=359cfacf6734

So we come back to ‘flexibility’ then being the key word, which pretty much everyone here is talking about. There are very few, if any, proposing a situation in which there is WFH 100% of the time

floorpie

Syferus wrote: »

You’re vastly over-stating the interest young people have in commuting to offices.

I've seen things like this stated a few times in the thread.

I'll just note that many people don't really know what they want, when you dig into it. Of course if you ask people "do you want a nice long commute every day to work" most people will say no. Public surveys (and ones I'm privy to) show this, and show that most people want to to remain WFH. The same surveys show that most people have difficulties with motivation, concentration, creativity, have worse mental health, more stress, more burnout, compared to pre-WFH.

Random top results from Google:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/working-from-home-overtime-laya-healthcare-stress-burnout
https://wearewildgoose.com/uk/news/the-2021-working-from-home-survey/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2020/08/24/working-from-home-is-disliked-by-and-bad-for-most-employees/?sh=359cfacf6734

Syferus

Stark wrote: »

Before covid there were laws that meant the employer had to ensure an employee had an ergonomic workspace at home before they were allowed WFH on a regular basis. Obviously all that got waived with pandemic emergency but I imagine that duty of care will return once the pandemic is over.

I imagine for young employees living in shared rented accommodation, their at-home workspaces are far from meeting the ergonomic requirements.

I imagine people will largely fall into two camps. Older workers with families living in the commuter belt who will probably appreciate the increased flexibility of WFH when it comes to school/creche runs, not having to commute etc. And the younger workers living in cramped accommodation closer to the city who will want to get out of the house and into an environment that's setup for working and opportunities to socialise.

You’re vastly over-stating the interest young people have in commuting to offices.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

:eek:

My " favourite" is the half 4 on a FRIDAY...... as in 2 cans of red bull & then TRY to stay awake / interested.....I always figure these people have zero life outside work

They go all the way to the bottom of hell.

[Deleted User]

:eek:

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a special place in hell reserved for people who set 9am meetings.

My " favourite" is the half 4 on a FRIDAY...... as in 2 cans of red bull & then TRY to stay awake / interested.....I always figure these people have zero life outside work

ineedeuro

jakiah wrote: »

Most of our customers & partners would be Dublin-based, though I would take the odd trip to Cork or Belfast. I dont see how not all of them being in the one city is a good argument for living near none of them. Ive some colleagues living out west, they have a 4-5 hour round trip for some meetings. Surely you'd want to minimise that sort of thing.

First you mentioned Midlands, then France and now Galway. Talk about extremes

Let's go back to the original place if we are talking about Dublin. Midland. So max you are 1-1.30 hour from midlands to Dublin city centre outside rush hour. Two hours in rush hour.
Even if you are an engineer the response time on any warranty is normally 4 hours onsite.

floorpie

jester77 wrote: »

I did the sums last year by comparing the meters to the same months from the year before. The difference in monthly costs for heat and electricity was offset by eating at home for 2 days compared to lunching out when you are in the office.

For work I use 2 monitors (mine), 2 laptops and 1 Desktop PC (mine) with a 1000W power supply, along with whatever other peripherals and items that I've also provided for my employer (speakers, printer, stationary etc), as well as kettle, cooker, lighting, hot water, heating throughout winter etc.

I know I sound stingy but this isn't an insignificant cost to incur permanently. Back of the envelope it's on the order of 1000s per year. I don't care what it's offset by really, I want it factored in to my package, or at least for it to be not glossed over by everyone because it's the "new normal". How many people needed to upgrade their broadband this year, bought a Wifi booster, etc? Somebody up the thread is paying to build an office.

Ignoring all else, I see WFH essentially as a pay cut that isn't being discussed.

jester77

floorpie wrote: »

The nature of my job means I may have to work anywhere in the world at the drop of a hat and I travel a lot, so it's not a new concept to me and probably not to anybody really. However my workplace facilitates this because, as I say, it's the nature of the job. I'm never expected in office and I just move to wherever suits me at a given time.

What IS a new concept to everybody are workplaces saying your permanent desk must be in your home, we aren't going to pay for your heating or electricity even though you'll use them 100s% more, creating an ergonomic space is not our responsibility, we can't ever guarantee you a desk because we're far over capacity, and you must remain near because you'll need to come into office 2 days a week. This has not been standard anywhere. So remain being amazed if you like but this is a new practice.

I did the sums last year by comparing the meters to the same months from the year before. The difference in monthly costs for heat and electricity was offset by eating at home for 2 days compared to lunching out when you are in the office.

[Deleted User]

L1011 wrote: »

In Asia (pre COVID even even pre SARS) its the norm when you're sick yourself - which I very much hope we do continue here - not everyone all the time.

I absolutely will wear a mask if I am out and am sick. Especially in a public transport or office environment. Will probably wear one on public transport through the winter anyway. I would hope that this will lead to a better behaviour of not rocking up to the office while sick. I certainly shan’t be impressed with anyone who does

Padre_Pio

KaneToad wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. You have more time for meaningful social interactions with people of your choosing. Sports clubs, neighbours, volunteer groups, music groups etc...

The people you work with are foisted upon you (and you on them!). There is nobody that I work with that I would ever socialise with or keep in touch with if I left. They are all (mostly) nice people but we have nothing in common.

Also, there is life outside of Dublin city!

If you're applying that logic to work, you could equally apply that logic to school, university, or basically any setting where you're put into a social situation with someone that you haven't already determined a shared interest beforehand.

floorpie

Calahonda52 wrote: »

As an employer, WFH and flexible working are two very different conversations.
Flexible working generally includes a set of core hours.
.
Your model suggests you decide when you work and where, which is not the norm.

Flexible working, certainly in the PS, seems to be somewhat abused based on my experience.
Example, by working "extra hours" which meant coming in early when there were no clients to look after and go home late, this couple accrued 5 weeks flexitime which they took off in one lump, along with 4 weeks annual leave, so they took 9 week holidays in the summer, on the continent in a camper van.

Last summer was a bit different!

This is an abject failure of line management afraid of Forsa

How are your coworkers building up 5 weeks of flexileave when there's a maximum carry over per month and a max allowed leave per month?

L1011

listermint wrote: »

Mask wearing has always existed in Asia. Anywhere I've been. It was even here in Ireland from Asian nationals.

In Asia (pre COVID even even pre SARS) its the norm when you're sick yourself - which I very much hope we do continue here - not everyone all the time.

[Deleted User]

There's a special place in hell reserved for people who set 9am meetings.