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Forced to work from home

Padre_Pio

Just got word today that work is downsizing their offices and the COVID work from home policy is going to be a near-permanent WHF policy.

Basically, the new office will only have hot desks, maybe half as many as there are staff. Employees have to book a desk in advance if they need to come into the office, but your permanent desk is expected to be in your own home.

There's uproar from certain people, but the response is basically put up and shut up.
Personally, there's no mention of home working in my contract. I was looking forward to getting back into the office and I barely have the space for a desk where I'm living at the moment, never mind a full setup.

Anyone have any experience of this? Places like Google and Facebook have said they're looking at similar policies. Any ideas how that went down with staff?

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Jim2007

jakiah wrote: »

Its not an employers obligation to cater to people who want to live miles away from their office and customer base.

If you are having difficulty in recruiting staff or having to match other employers offers it is.

And since customers also work from home they may not appreciate having to go into the office to meet you.

[Deleted User]

Realistically we're never going to be back 100% in the office due to some requirement for social distancing.

Responder XY

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect you may be left behind, looking for something that most employers won't want to accommodate.

I suspect I won't be, it's a sellers market right now when it comes to employment. If my current employer doesn't allow me to work from an office, I'll simply find one that does!

[Deleted User]

Responder XY wrote: »

I suspect I won't be, it's a sellers market right now when it comes to employment. If my current employer doesn't allow me to work from an office, I'll simply find one that does!

To be fair, that's a short sighted view.

Jim2007

Sono wrote: »

Make no mistake about it companies are saving a fortune on their staff working from home.

I think they will save in the future, but many will still have to invest heavily to get from the temporary solution they have today to a permanent remote environment, cancel lease agreements etc...

Jim2007

Responder XY wrote: »

I suspect I won't be, it's a sellers market right now when it comes to employment. If my current employer doesn't allow me to work from an office, I'll simply find one that does!

Well if you got say 10 more years left in the work force that might be realistic, but beyond that I would not fancy your chances.

Cyrus

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Realistically we're never going to be back 100% in the office due to some requirement for social distancing.

we are going to social distance forever?

Christy42

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well if you got say 10 more years left in the work force that might be realistic, but beyond that I would not fancy your chances.

While I suspect it will be an oddity I doubt it will be unmanageable. Places will have desks and if someone has the clout to get one only for themselves they will be able to. I don't think they will have to chase people away from the office to get space

Or just 10 years to get a suitable wfh arrangement. Certainly not everywhere will go immediately to wfh and many places will have no reason to make it mandatory as it may be impractical to stop renting part of an office or to get a new smaller one.

Calahonda52

Cyrus wrote: »

we are going to social distance forever?

Some form as Covid continue to evolve, with booster vaccines etc.
In addition the reducing in flu mortality during Covid will see masks etc being here to stay.

Cyrus

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Some form as Covid continue to evolve, with booster vaccines etc.
In addition the reducing in flu mortality during Covid will see masks etc being here to stay.

disagree

mask wearing didnt persist in asia post sars i dont see why it will persist here.

jakiah

floorpie wrote: »

What IS a new concept to everybody are workplaces saying your permanent desk must be in your home, we aren't going to pay for your heating or electricity even though you'll use them 100s% more, creating an ergonomic space is not our responsibility, we can't ever guarantee you a desk because we're far over capacity, and you must remain near because you'll need to come into office 2 days a week. This has not been standard anywhere. So remain being amazed if you like but this is a new practice.

This is pretty standard in tech in Dublin.

jakiah

floorpie wrote: »

So your coworkers rent in London to go into an office perhaps a day a week? Seems ridiculous.

There are millions of other reasons to live in London besides work.

A lot of this discussion is underpinned by the idea that people wouldnt want to live in a city and everyone is forced to. Its nonsense. We have lads on thread who were spending 3 hours a day commuting, no wonder they want to work 100% from home. What kind of life is that?

str8y

ineedeuro wrote: »

One of the huge advantage of WFH is people don't need to live beside the office. Instead of spending 500k for a tiny house they can move outside major cities. This will not only help with pollution in major cities but also regeneration of smaller towns.

If you are sharing in a 4 bed house paying mental rent, you could probably rent a 4 bed house for the same price an hour outside Dublin. If you are not working everyday in the city why do you need to be based in it? it's not like you can go to the pub :-)

Just a quick crude example:

Double room in IFSC: 1,225 pm
https://www.rent.ie/rooms-to-rent/Spencer-Dock-Apartments-IFSC-Dublin-1/4767109/
Going West... 3 Bed in Mullingar 1,300 pm
https://www.rent.ie/houses-to-let/12-Atilderd-Na-Dara-Royal-Canal-Mullingar-Co-Westmeath/4741923/
Going North...3 bed Dundalk 1,250pm
https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/house-27-college-heights-dundalk-dundalk-co-louth/3225226

Or if you wanna push the boat out for a year:
Going South...6 Bed, Gorey: 1,400 pm
https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/house-ballywilliam-gorey-co-wexford/3236941

jakiah

ineedeuro wrote: »

If you can manage your calendar correctly it shouldn't matter if you live in the middle of no where. Arranging 1-2 days a week to commute into a city and spend the day meeting customers will have the exact same impression as walking down the road.

If I had that level of certainty that my calendar wouldnt change I'd be living in the south of France on the QT sure. But thats not how it works. Flexible working means flexible both ways - I dont have to deal with things like traffic, I dont usually have to be in a particular place, I can take time off whenever and the business can rely on me if they need me at relatively short notice.

ineedeuro

jakiah wrote: »

If I had that level of certainty that my calendar wouldnt change I'd be living in the south of France on the QT sure. But thats not how it works. Flexible working means flexible both ways - I dont have to deal with things like traffic, I dont usually have to be in a particular place, I can take time off whenever and the business can rely on me if they need me at relatively short notice.

In my work people have meetings all over Ireland. So living in a particular city centre is fairly pointless. If you only have customers based in one city then maybe an advantage to living beside them. I don't see it myself to be honest.

listermint

Cyrus wrote: »

disagree

mask wearing didnt persist in asia post sars i dont see why it will persist here.

Mask wearing has always existed in Asia. Anywhere I've been. It was even here in Ireland from Asian nationals.

Calahonda52

jakiah wrote: »

If I had that level of certainty that my calendar wouldnt change I'd be living in the south of France on the QT sure. But thats not how it works. Flexible working means flexible both ways - I dont have to deal with things like traffic, I dont usually have to be in a particular place, I can take time off whenever and the business can rely on me if they need me at relatively short notice.

As an employer, WFH and flexible working are two very different conversations.
Flexible working generally includes a set of core hours.
.
Your model suggests you decide when you work and where, which is not the norm.

Flexible working, certainly in the PS, seems to be somewhat abused based on my experience.
Example, by working "extra hours" which meant coming in early when there were no clients to look after and go home late, this couple accrued 5 weeks flexitime which they took off in one lump, along with 4 weeks annual leave, so they took 9 week holidays in the summer, on the continent in a camper van.

Last summer was a bit different!

This is an abject failure of line management afraid of Forsa

jakiah

ineedeuro wrote: »

In my work people have meetings all over Ireland. So living in a particular city centre is fairly pointless. If you only have customers based in one city then maybe an advantage to living beside them. I don't see it myself to be honest.

Most of our customers & partners would be Dublin-based, though I would take the odd trip to Cork or Belfast. I dont see how not all of them being in the one city is a good argument for living near none of them. Ive some colleagues living out west, they have a 4-5 hour round trip for some meetings. Surely you'd want to minimise that sort of thing.

Cyrus

listermint wrote: »

Mask wearing has always existed in Asia. Anywhere I've been. It was even here in Ireland from Asian nationals.

yes but its not mandatory which is what the poster appeared to suggest. i am in singapore 2-3 times a year and you rarely see anyone in a mask.

jakiah

Calahonda52 wrote: »

As an employer, WFH and flexible working are two very different conversations.
Flexible working generally includes a set of core hours.
.
Your model suggests you decide when you work and where, which is not the norm.

The customer requirement decides when and where I work. Outside that I have flexibilty. On-site meetings would almost always be scheduled for core-hours, though this is not defined anywhere, its just common sense. Nobody would schedule a 9am meeting, it would be considered rude. Even on a 9am Zoom call the host will apologise for the early meeting.

Frankly I thought this was the norm these days, maybe its more specific to my level/industry than I thought. It makes the idea of lads working miles from their offices with horrific commutes even more mind-boggling.

[Deleted User]

There's a special place in hell reserved for people who set 9am meetings.

L1011

listermint wrote: »

Mask wearing has always existed in Asia. Anywhere I've been. It was even here in Ireland from Asian nationals.

In Asia (pre COVID even even pre SARS) its the norm when you're sick yourself - which I very much hope we do continue here - not everyone all the time.

floorpie

Calahonda52 wrote: »

As an employer, WFH and flexible working are two very different conversations.
Flexible working generally includes a set of core hours.
.
Your model suggests you decide when you work and where, which is not the norm.

Flexible working, certainly in the PS, seems to be somewhat abused based on my experience.
Example, by working "extra hours" which meant coming in early when there were no clients to look after and go home late, this couple accrued 5 weeks flexitime which they took off in one lump, along with 4 weeks annual leave, so they took 9 week holidays in the summer, on the continent in a camper van.

Last summer was a bit different!

This is an abject failure of line management afraid of Forsa

How are your coworkers building up 5 weeks of flexileave when there's a maximum carry over per month and a max allowed leave per month?

Padre_Pio

KaneToad wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. You have more time for meaningful social interactions with people of your choosing. Sports clubs, neighbours, volunteer groups, music groups etc...

The people you work with are foisted upon you (and you on them!). There is nobody that I work with that I would ever socialise with or keep in touch with if I left. They are all (mostly) nice people but we have nothing in common.

Also, there is life outside of Dublin city!

If you're applying that logic to work, you could equally apply that logic to school, university, or basically any setting where you're put into a social situation with someone that you haven't already determined a shared interest beforehand.

[Deleted User]

L1011 wrote: »

In Asia (pre COVID even even pre SARS) its the norm when you're sick yourself - which I very much hope we do continue here - not everyone all the time.

I absolutely will wear a mask if I am out and am sick. Especially in a public transport or office environment. Will probably wear one on public transport through the winter anyway. I would hope that this will lead to a better behaviour of not rocking up to the office while sick. I certainly shan’t be impressed with anyone who does

jester77

floorpie wrote: »

The nature of my job means I may have to work anywhere in the world at the drop of a hat and I travel a lot, so it's not a new concept to me and probably not to anybody really. However my workplace facilitates this because, as I say, it's the nature of the job. I'm never expected in office and I just move to wherever suits me at a given time.

What IS a new concept to everybody are workplaces saying your permanent desk must be in your home, we aren't going to pay for your heating or electricity even though you'll use them 100s% more, creating an ergonomic space is not our responsibility, we can't ever guarantee you a desk because we're far over capacity, and you must remain near because you'll need to come into office 2 days a week. This has not been standard anywhere. So remain being amazed if you like but this is a new practice.

I did the sums last year by comparing the meters to the same months from the year before. The difference in monthly costs for heat and electricity was offset by eating at home for 2 days compared to lunching out when you are in the office.

floorpie

jester77 wrote: »

I did the sums last year by comparing the meters to the same months from the year before. The difference in monthly costs for heat and electricity was offset by eating at home for 2 days compared to lunching out when you are in the office.

For work I use 2 monitors (mine), 2 laptops and 1 Desktop PC (mine) with a 1000W power supply, along with whatever other peripherals and items that I've also provided for my employer (speakers, printer, stationary etc), as well as kettle, cooker, lighting, hot water, heating throughout winter etc.

I know I sound stingy but this isn't an insignificant cost to incur permanently. Back of the envelope it's on the order of 1000s per year. I don't care what it's offset by really, I want it factored in to my package, or at least for it to be not glossed over by everyone because it's the "new normal". How many people needed to upgrade their broadband this year, bought a Wifi booster, etc? Somebody up the thread is paying to build an office.

Ignoring all else, I see WFH essentially as a pay cut that isn't being discussed.

ineedeuro

jakiah wrote: »

Most of our customers & partners would be Dublin-based, though I would take the odd trip to Cork or Belfast. I dont see how not all of them being in the one city is a good argument for living near none of them. Ive some colleagues living out west, they have a 4-5 hour round trip for some meetings. Surely you'd want to minimise that sort of thing.

First you mentioned Midlands, then France and now Galway. Talk about extremes

Let's go back to the original place if we are talking about Dublin. Midland. So max you are 1-1.30 hour from midlands to Dublin city centre outside rush hour. Two hours in rush hour.
Even if you are an engineer the response time on any warranty is normally 4 hours onsite.

[Deleted User]

:eek:

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a special place in hell reserved for people who set 9am meetings.

My " favourite" is the half 4 on a FRIDAY...... as in 2 cans of red bull & then TRY to stay awake / interested.....I always figure these people have zero life outside work

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

:eek:

My " favourite" is the half 4 on a FRIDAY...... as in 2 cans of red bull & then TRY to stay awake / interested.....I always figure these people have zero life outside work

They go all the way to the bottom of hell.