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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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AndyBoBandy

cannco253 wrote: »

Thanks Black Knight

So roughly by then end of the summer all the old units should be replaced - what's the plan after that, or does anyone know?

liamog

cannco253 wrote: »

Thanks Black Knight

So roughly by then end of the summer all the old units should be replaced - what's the plan after that, or does anyone know?

As far as we know the plan is still roughly inline with the first post on this thread, the big outstanding piece of work is the hub rollouts. The first one is currently underway at J14 Midway.

cannco253

Thanks Black Knight

So roughly by then end of the summer all the old units should be replaced - what's the plan after that, or does anyone know?

Black_Knight

cannco253 wrote: »

ESB eCars facebook just now.

"Since March, we have upgraded the AC standard 22kW chargers at 29 locations"

How many more of the old 22kW units do they have to replace?

ELM327 wrote: »

they arent real upgrades, just swapping out functional ones for other ones

I'd imagine so. There's only a total of 31 of those DC units they're using to upgrade the AC units with out there.

There are 270 of the new eVolve Smart T 22kW AC units. There are 127 of the old AC units remaining where the port slides open, and 15 of those single socket AC units. These include NI which are not part of the 200+ AC units ESB have planned to replace.

ELM327

they arent real upgrades, just swapping out functional ones for other ones

cannco253

ESB eCars facebook just now.

"Since March, we have upgraded the AC standard 22kW chargers at 29 locations"

How many more of the old 22kW units do they have to replace?

Black_Knight

Deleted User wrote: »

I find it unbelievable the ESB charge point map does not show the 150 Kw chargers separately.

Too embarassing.

[Deleted User]

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

You'll be grand, from what I've experienced of the ID.4 so far I'm confident it could manage 350km at motorway speeds, over 400km of urban driving

The ID.3 Tour should manage even more being lighter and more aerodynamic

Yeah I'll be grand until I'm not!

the_amazing_raisin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'll probably miss the Rex in the i3 when I change to the ID.3 Tour 5 but having the extra ev range will be really good and if I feel any particular trip will be just too much of a headache I will just take the Outlander Diesel.

I find it unbelievable the ESB charge point map does not show the 150 Kw chargers separately.

We have no charger hubs yet, I don't think 150 Kw + 45 Kw can be called a site and besides I think the 45 Kw chargers are throttled at least that's what I observed in Kilcullen.

You'll be grand, from what I've experienced of the ID.4 so far I'm confident it could manage 350km at motorway speeds, over 400km of urban driving

The ID.3 Tour should manage even more being lighter and more aerodynamic

[Deleted User]

I'll probably miss the Rex in the i3 when I change to the ID.3 Tour 5 but having the extra ev range will be really good and if I feel any particular trip will be just too much of a headache I will just take the Outlander Diesel.

I find it unbelievable the ESB charge point map does not show the 150 Kw chargers separately.

We have no charger hubs yet, I don't think 150 Kw + 45 Kw can be called a site and besides I think the 45 Kw chargers are throttled at least that's what I observed in Kilcullen.

ted1

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Who pays this levy is a tricky one, could be part of the cost per kWh for EVs, could come out of the PSO levy itself, could be paid by road tax

Or it coud come out of NORA so that ICE cars are paying for EV chargers, that would certainly encourage uptake

The carbon levy would be a good source of funding on EV chargers

the_amazing_raisin

zg3409 wrote: »

Before Covid, I stopped at motorway charger and it was in use. I decided to go to charger on other side of motorway which was relatively long distance and it also was in use. I went back to first charger and it just became free, and someone else arrived a couple of minutes later.

So even with spare range you still may end up stressed and worried. You may end up stopping, starting again, stopping etc.

The main reason for this is it was peak Friday evening time, and not enough chargers.

Its rare if you ever need to queue at a petrol station and waiting time is typically seconds not minutes. Main downside of EV is availability of 40kW+ public chargers on long distance routes at peak times. Even a big battery will probably need to stop to charge on way back from a cross country weekend away. A big battery takes double the charging time of small battery.

The government hands out 10,000 grants (tax exemption) to every EV sale. They need to invest similar in decent hubs, a half a dozen city to city sites would make a big difference and cost relatively little. With less downsides they can start reducing grants for cars, as demand will grow.

Again, I think it depends on the route, I wouldn't be too thrilled about going from Cork to Sligo in an ID.4, given there's not many DC chargers en route, none are over 50kW and each one of them is a single point of failure

However, Dublin-Cork should soon be reasonably well served between Ionity Cashel and the ESB hub at J7

I do agree that infrastructure is seriously lagging in Ireland. EV sales are consistently beating expectations, which presumably the ESB used to design their expansion plans around. So I think it's fair to say that even if ESB hits the targets set out in 2019 the network will still not be where it needs to be

Hopefully more providers will enter the fray soon, there's already an appetite from service stations to provide chargers so hopefully we'll see more Applegreen, etc. chargers before long

I take more issue with the governments approach rather than the amount of funding. I believe greater regulation of charging providers is needed to ensure a high quality experience. The current approach seem to be offering to pay 50% of capital costs, which means very few companies in Ireland are willing to take the risk with that amount of cash upfront

I think something more along the lines of the PSO levy would be better, where charging providers are essentially insured against a loss.

Who pays this levy is a tricky one, could be part of the cost per kWh for EVs, could come out of the PSO levy itself, could be paid by road tax

Or it coud come out of NORA so that ICE cars are paying for EV chargers, that would certainly encourage uptake

zg3409

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

However, there is a whole generation of EVs which can do long distances and are rapidly becoming affordable. If you arrive at a charger and it's being used, then often you can just travel to the next charger confident that you have enough charge to make it

Before Covid, I stopped at motorway charger and it was in use. I decided to go to charger on other side of motorway which was relatively long distance and it also was in use. I went back to first charger and it just became free, and someone else arrived a couple of minutes later.

So even with spare range you still may end up stressed and worried. You may end up stopping, starting again, stopping etc.

The main reason for this is it was peak Friday evening time, and not enough chargers.

Its rare if you ever need to queue at a petrol station and waiting time is typically seconds not minutes. Main downside of EV is availability of 40kW+ public chargers on long distance routes at peak times. Even a big battery will probably need to stop to charge on way back from a cross country weekend away. A big battery takes double the charging time of small battery.

The government hands out 10,000 grants (tax exemption) to every EV sale. They need to invest similar in decent hubs, a half a dozen city to city sites would make a big difference and cost relatively little. With less downsides they can start reducing grants for cars, as demand will grow.

the_amazing_raisin

kanuseeme wrote: »

I did not assume any one gets 100% of their electric from a charging network, but its a common assumption here that all phev's are rubbish and should only charge at home.

Yes you did, you consistently say that Ionity is more expensive than diesel without taking into the savings from home charging. You have to take the overall picture into account

As for subscription please share it. I highly doubt it, ECARs rate for DC charging is only a 20 % saving compared to a 60 mpg diesel car, so if your rate is cheaper then its a saving, but then consider the amount of time charging to get your subscription to pay for itself. Massive inconvenience for very little benefit.

Counter argument, find me a car that achieves 60mpg at 120km/h. Most diesel cars will be closer to 40mpg. Let's say with some conservative driving you achieve 50mpg. Cost per km works out as 7.84c/km

Charging at Ionity at 30c/kWh and consuming a somewhat thirsty 21.5kWh/100km gives me 6.45c/km. The monthly charge for this is €17.50, factoring this in depends on how many kms you use Ionity for

If I did 15,000kms of purely Ionity charging with the subscription then I achieve price parity with diesel over the same mileage. Anything over that is a saving

However, it's worth noting this is a highly unrealistic case when there are cheaper options such as home charging or public AC charging. Again, it's about the overall picture

The whole benefit of a phev is to charge when and where you like and not to be stuck waiting for 10 minutes and then you wait while charging. Which seems like a convenience to me.
I would counter your argument that the whole point of a BEV is to charge at home and if you need to stop, pray that you won't be waiting because for sure I won't

So it's okay to wait in a PHEV while charging, but not okay to wait for a charger? Why? The car is making the same amount of forward progress in both cases (none)

Plugging into a DC charger.
I do not see a problem that a phev driver pulls into a place, sees a available charger plugs in and goes about his business, tea, leak buy paint, etc. gets 1.20 euro worth of electricity, drives 20 km and saves 1.5 liters of petrol, which is a pollutant as you pointed out before.

I don't see an issue with this either, but the vast majority of DC chargers are currently at service stations. The average service station stop in an ICE is 15 mins, in which time as PHEV charging at 3kW will charge 0.75kWh, enough to go what, maybe 3km? After which you'll be using petrol again

I appreciate PHEV drivers who try to use EV mode as much as possible to save petrol. But given the situation above would it not have been better to get a BEV in order to maximise the use of fast charging?

There is little point in having infrastructure gathering dust on the off chance a zoe will come along.

You often make the point of waiting for a charger, and yet the infrastructure is gathering dust from not being used. Which is it exactly?

As for stopping to charge and just get a BEV.
Your confusing just normal daily business with the mentality of owning a BEV, there is no guarantee that a charger will be available where ever you stop and to be stuck waiting would be a massive inconvenience.

I agree that waiting for a charger is inconvenient, which is why I often bash ESB for their woeful infrastructure and planning. However, 80% of commuting is less than 50km, even a Nissan Leaf can easily achieve this/ So as a driver should you plan for the day to day driving at the risk of being moderately inconvenienced for the rare time you need to travel beyond this distance?

I am not anti BEV, I can see their advantages and disadvantages but the constant phev bashing is not good for anyone. Before any one replies we are not bashing, its the constant making fun, comments like "I dont get it" or being told to charge at home or suggesting ways to remove the "problem".
I honestly cannot see phev's disappearing for a while yet, in fact only increasing in number, as for BEV's they are a hard sell IMO, constantly proclaiming their benefits while only passing off disadvantages as a 10 minute charge will not help anyone.

There is only .15 % difference in sales of BEVS and phevs and both are only 6% of the market.

To be clear, I'm not anti PHEV. I know some folks here are, but I am not

If I were regularly driving long distances in an area with poor charging infrastructure, then I would likely buy a PHEV. As it happens I drive short distances, have access to home charging and the infrastructure is reasonably good along any routes I'm likely to travel long distance, so I chose a BEV

Luckily I now have a BEV which can travel 350km on motorways without needing to recharge, so I should be able to travel all but the longest routes in Ireland without a midpoint charge

I do take issue with this constant terror that seems to grip some people around chargers being unavailable. Yes, it happens, and if you're in something like a Nissan Leaf then it's a problem. I would say that a Nissan Leaf isn't suitable for regular long journeys. I'm basing this on experience, not whatever garbage I read in the news

However, there is a whole generation of EVs which can do long distances and are rapidly becoming affordable. If you arrive at a charger and it's being used, then often you can just travel to the next charger confident that you have enough charge to make it

kanuseeme

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

You are consistenly assuming that all BEVs and PHEVs are using public charging for 100% of their fuel when charging when making price comparisons

Yes, maybe using Ionity full price is more expensive than diesel, but if you only use it once a month and charge at home otherwise, the overall fuel savings are considerable, as has been repeatedly demonstrated

If I was using Ionity exclusively for my charging then I would sign up to a paid subscription and get a considerable discount off the per kWh rate. The paid package pay off quite quickly and are still a lot cheaper than diesel

As for PHEVs using DC chargers, I still cannot see how it makes sense in a cost-benefit way. The whole argument with a PHEV is that you can charge at home/work and use EV mode for day to day driving but still drive long distance without stopping to charge.

Plugging into a DC charger for an hour and paying €0.30/kWh for what is probably only going to be 10km of EV range seems like a massive inconvenience for very little benefit

If you were willing to stop for that amount of time in the first place, then why not buy a BEV?

I did not assume any one gets 100% of their electric from a charging network, but its a common assumption here that all phev's are rubbish and should only charge at home.

As for subscription please share it. I highly doubt it, ECARs rate for DC charging is only a 20 % saving compared to a 60 mpg diesel car, so if your rate is cheaper then its a saving, but then consider the amount of time charging to get your subscription to pay for itself. Massive inconvenience for very little benefit.

The whole benefit of a phev is to charge when and where you like and not to be stuck waiting for 10 minutes and then you wait while charging. Which seems like a convenience to me.
I would counter your argument that the whole point of a BEV is to charge at home and if you need to stop, pray that you won't be waiting because for sure I won't

Plugging into a DC charger.
I do not see a problem that a phev driver pulls into a place, sees a available charger plugs in and goes about his business, tea, leak buy paint, etc. gets 1.20 euro worth of electricity, drives 20 km and saves 1.5 liters of petrol, which is a pollutant as you pointed out before.
There is little point in having infrastructure gathering dust on the off chance a zoe will come along.

As for stopping to charge and just get a BEV.
Your confusing just normal daily business with the mentality of owning a BEV, there is no guarantee that a charger will be available where ever you stop and to be stuck waiting would be a massive inconvenience.

I am not anti BEV, I can see their advantages and disadvantages but the constant phev bashing is not good for anyone. Before any one replies we are not bashing, its the constant making fun, comments like "I dont get it" or being told to charge at home or suggesting ways to remove the "problem".
I honestly cannot see phev's disappearing for a while yet, in fact only increasing in number, as for BEV's they are a hard sell IMO, constantly proclaiming their benefits while only passing off disadvantages as a 10 minute charge will not help anyone.

There is only .15 % difference in sales of BEVS and phevs and both are only 6% of the market.

Busman Paddy Lasty

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Once again showing the value of proper hubs. You'd need to be extremely unlucky to get caught waiting for 30 mins at a 4 car hub with current levels of EV use in Ireland

Absolutely, arriving 11 minutes later would have driven straight in. Also to note about Gorey services is that eCars have 4 spaces and a plinth for another charger. Ionity have 2 more spaces and plinths.

the_amazing_raisin

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

It was 5 cars charging and 2 waiting! Not a problem whatsoever because the wait was less than 10 minutes before we got to charge, benefits of having four stalls that can do >150kW. Used Ionity twice last year under the old pricing and once this year so the cost is tiny when compared to all mileage costs.

Once again showing the value of proper hubs. You'd need to be extremely unlucky to get caught waiting for 30 mins at a 4 car hub with current levels of EV use in Ireland

Black_Knight

Black_Knight wrote: »

Some in Portlaoise and Kells seem convinced by the 70kW CHAdeMO socket.

Address|MaximumPower|SocketType|MinutesInUse
Portlaoise Plaza, Exit 17, M7, Portlaoise, Co.Laois, Ireland|150|TYPE_COMBO_GERMANY|630
Portlaoise Plaza, Exit 17, M7, Portlaoise, Co.Laois, Ireland|70|TYPE_4_CHADEMO|395
Portlaoise Plaza, Exit 17, M7, Portlaoise, Co.Laois, Ireland|50|TYPE_COMBO_GERMANY|205
Portlaoise Plaza, Exit 17, M7, Portlaoise, Co.Laois, Ireland|50|TYPE_4_CHADEMO|195

Address|MaximumPower|SocketType|MinutesInUse
Park Ri Service Station, Cavan Road, Townparks, Kells, Meath.|150|TYPE_COMBO_GERMANY|610
Park Ri Service Station, Cavan Road, Townparks, Kells, Meath.|50|TYPE_4_CHADEMO|280
Park Ri Service Station, Cavan Road, Townparks, Kells, Meath.|50|TYPE_COMBO_GERMANY|165
Park Ri Service Station, Cavan Road, Townparks, Kells, Meath.|70|TYPE_4_CHADEMO|60

Address|MaximumPower|SocketType|MinutesInUse
Circle K M9 Kilcullen, M9, Co. Kildare|150|TYPE_COMBO_GERMANY|1550
Circle K M9 Kilcullen, M9, Co. Kildare|50|TYPE_COMBO_GERMANY|590
Circle K M9 Kilcullen, M9, Co. Kildare|70|TYPE_4_CHADEMO|560
Circle K M9 Kilcullen, M9, Co. Kildare|50|TYPE_4_CHADEMO|485

Address|MaximumPower|SocketType|MinutesInUse
The Galway Plaza, Junction 16, Carrowkeel, Kiltullagh, Co. Galway|150|TYPE_COMBO_GERMANY|895
The Galway Plaza, Junction 16, Carrowkeel, Kiltullagh, Co. Galway|50|TYPE_4_CHADEMO|115
The Galway Plaza, Junction 16, Carrowkeel, Kiltullagh, Co. Galway|50|TYPE_COMBO_GERMANY|460
The Galway Plaza, Junction 16, Carrowkeel, Kiltullagh, Co. Galway|70|TYPE_4_CHADEMO|160

Interestingly one of the busiest paid chargers in the county (Lucan) has about 1300 CCS and 1200 CHAdeMO minutes of use this last week. Busier than all the above other than Kilcullen. I'd imagine if there were 2 units there it'd do more charging than Kilcullen.

liamog

slave1 wrote: »

Why reinvent a pricing, just follow Tesla's Irish overstay fee of 50c per minute or €1/minute if the station is fully occupied, both charges kick in when SC is complete (5 minute grace period) and both are without an upper limit!!!

An overstay charge doesn't solve the problem of underutilisation of the charging resource. A car charging at 3.3kW on a 43kW charger is a problem for everyone. Charging is limited by the available time at a given charge point.

The practice in Norway of charging per minute encourages users to use the charger during the most optimum charging speed and to utilise the correct charger for the car. One thing I think I saw in a Bjorn video was an option to double charge for a higher at the Delta HPCs. Instead of the current eCars approach of 150kW which drops to 75kW when a second car plugs in, the user could choose via the unit to fully use the 150kW, but paid more for the privilege.

Busman Paddy Lasty

kanuseeme wrote: »

Go back 2 pages, a post with 5 cars charging and another waiting none of which were phev's, you bought your car so live with it.

It was 5 cars charging and 2 waiting! Not a problem whatsoever because the wait was less than 10 minutes before we got to charge, benefits of having four stalls that can do >150kW. Used Ionity twice last year under the old pricing and once this year so the cost is tiny when compared to all mileage costs.

slave1

Then a 5 minute grace period before 50c/minute overstay fee without limit

the_amazing_raisin

slave1 wrote: »

Why reinvent a pricing, just follow Tesla's Irish overstay fee of 50c per minute or €1/minute if the station is fully occupied, both charges kick in when SC is complete (5 minute grace period) and both are without an upper limit!!!
Note, they only kick in when SC Station at 50%+ capacity.

Sure most ESB stations are at 100% capacity with 1 car charging

slave1

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Price per minute will punish folks in 7kW (or less) capable cars, while rewarding folks in cars that can take more than 11kW (Zoe, Model S dual AC etc).

However price per minute should absolutely apply once a car is no longer charging.

Give something like a 30 minute grace period when the car stops charging, and if not unplugged within that 30 minutes, a €5 charge, and then another €5 charged every 30 minutes the car remains plugged in and blocking the charger.

Why reinvent a pricing, just follow Tesla's Irish overstay fee of 50c per minute or €1/minute if the station is fully occupied, both charges kick in when SC is complete (5 minute grace period) and both are without an upper limit!!!
Note, they only kick in when SC Station at 50%+ capacity.

the_amazing_raisin

kanuseeme wrote: »

Funny, reading posts with words like "worse" "problem" "increase price", the "problem" is all in your minds, phev's are an easy target, they are nothing but a ice with a battery.

A BEV driver must accept that for considerable time, there is no guarantee that charging will be hassle free.

Sure increase prices, all it will do is keep cars within range of their house charger, both phev and BEV, it will slow down sales of both as it will be cheaper to drive on fossil fuel.

At the moment Ecars are the only ones who provide a service that is cheaper than using fuel, those using Ionity might as well have a phev, cheaper and less time wasted.

Go back 2 pages, a post with 5 cars charging and another waiting none of which were phev's, you bought your car so live with it.

You are consistenly assuming that all BEVs and PHEVs are using public charging for 100% of their fuel when charging when making price comparisons

Yes, maybe using Ionity full price is more expensive than diesel, but if you only use it once a month and charge at home otherwise, the overall fuel savings are considerable, as has been repeatedly demonstrated

If I was using Ionity exclusively for my charging then I would sign up to a paid subscription and get a considerable discount off the per kWh rate. The paid package pay off quite quickly and are still a lot cheaper than diesel

As for PHEVs using DC chargers, I still cannot see how it makes sense in a cost-benefit way. The whole argument with a PHEV is that you can charge at home/work and use EV mode for day to day driving but still drive long distance without stopping to charge.

Plugging into a DC charger for an hour and paying €0.30/kWh for what is probably only going to be 10km of EV range seems like a massive inconvenience for very little benefit

If you were willing to stop for that amount of time in the first place, then why not buy a BEV?

Busman Paddy Lasty

liamog wrote: »

Pick a number per min, if usage drops too low to make the charge point viable reduce the number.

5c/min

AndyBoBandy

Price per minute will punish folks in 7kW (or less) capable cars, while rewarding folks in cars that can take more than 11kW (Zoe, Model S dual AC etc).

However price per minute should absolutely apply once a car is no longer charging.

Give something like a 30 minute grace period when the car stops charging, and if not unplugged within that 30 minutes, a €5 charge, and then another €5 charged every 30 minutes the car remains plugged in and blocking the charger.

kanuseeme

Funny, reading posts with words like "worse" "problem" "increase price", the "problem" is all in your minds, phev's are an easy target, they are nothing but a ice with a battery.

A BEV driver must accept that for considerable time, there is no guarantee that charging will be hassle free.

Sure increase prices, all it will do is keep cars within range of their house charger, both phev and BEV, it will slow down sales of both as it will be cheaper to drive on fossil fuel.

At the moment Ecars are the only ones who provide a service that is cheaper than using fuel, those using Ionity might as well have a phev, cheaper and less time wasted.

Go back 2 pages, a post with 5 cars charging and another waiting none of which were phev's, you bought your car so live with it.

liamog

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

^^ what price would be suitable for Ireland though, how to price a per minute regime on a socket that can deliver anywhere from 1.3kW up to 22kW?

Pick a number per min, if usage drops too low to make the charge point viable reduce the number.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

I'm acting under specific instructions from the eCars Facebook rep. They originally wanted me to call it the eCars Discussion Hub

Thanks for renaming the thread, and concealing our lack of progress since 2019.
Regards Anna.

Black_Knight

Slow charger was removed from Cross Street in Enniskillen. Plugshare suggests there's been no power to the unit for a while now.

Noticed, after I noticed the above, that a week or 2 ago ESB unmarked all the NI units which were marked for replacement. Not sure if there's anything to read into with that, or just cleaning up those perpetually marked units which they've no concrete plans to replace. All NI units need replacing anyways.