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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

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Comments

ftbman

WrenBoy wrote: »

Hard disagree.

And I respect that you do.

MarkEadie

ftbman wrote: »

Then make the politicians fix the welfare system. It's not a coincidence that things are the way they are. Politicians want to have it this way. It makes us fear and suspect all foreigners. People should look up the Nuremberg trials. The way the nazis made doctors, lawyers and pretty much everyone in Germany into brutal war criminals was by fear. Hermann Göring, the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (air force) said it very clearly.

The governments job is to keep us on our toes and pretty scared all the time. Noam Chomsky also talk about this. So don't fall for the pseudo issues like multiculturalism. It's a concept for spreading and maintaining fear. We're first and foremost people. The foreigners will never drain the system. It is the politicians and political commentators that scare you with that to make sure you can be manipulated and used like a tool.

That's a good post. I agree totally. Although I would say that it's a smaller subsection of society that falls for it. Most people are happy with multiculturalism and the feeling of humanity progressing. The people that fall for what you say are a smaller subsection. That gets magnified on here because they are over represented. It's a bit like reviewing what you buy. Generally most people don't bother because they are happy and content with the product and their lives in general. If someone is unhappy with the product they are more likely to review it and leave a negative review. Which they are entitled to do but a small subsection of people is not going to have any effect on policies as we have seen and continue to see. Humanity is in the business of progression, not regression.

Wibbs

The plain fact is though, on top of not producing enough is that of the doctors and nurses we do produce quite the number emigrate for greener pastures adding to the shortage. It's not just down to quotas. In the UK under a different system a large proportion of their doctors and nurses are not from the UK.

Swindled

Wibbs wrote: »

We can and do produce them, but a lot of them leave for greener pastures like Australia for better pay and working conditions. Just like many extra EU medical staff come here for the same reasons.

All types of people emigrate from Ireland.
Of course we can produce them, the argument is we allegedly cannot produce enough of them, which is bullshyte. We're well able to over produce in areas like law because there is no quotas, and the number of law degrees and training has kept pace with the real world, not the 1950's demand and cosy cartel. Yes senior Irish Doctors want the cosy limited cartel cap in numbers, the same one the Irish legal profession once had, but that day is gone. So don't give me the bullshyte that a country can oversupply lawyers, but cannot produce enough Doctors and Nurses, and we should rob Doctors and Nurses from the third world.

Wibbs

ftbman wrote: »

Then make the politicians fix the welfare system. It's not a coincidence that things are the way they are. Politicians want to have it this way.

Never ascribe to wilful conspiracy that which can be explained by wilful indolence and narrow thinking. About the only thing career politicians want is to be re-elected.

It makes us fear and suspect all foreigners.

Actually the suspicion of the "foreign" has a very deep root and history in humanity. Even before we started to farm and build cities it was in play. When modern humans first walked out of Africa, they didn't walk into virgin territory. There were at least three other human subspecies around. Where are they now? No politicians, no "elites" required. They merely take advantage of an existing strand in human nature.

People should look up the Nuremberg trials. The way the nazis made doctors, lawyers and pretty much everyone in Germany into brutal war criminals was by fear. Hermann Göring, the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (air force) said it very clearly.

Actually what's troubling about nazi Germany and other evil regimes is that fear is not the main driver of the regime. Not in the sense of punishment. Certainly not in Germany of the time. They plugged into human nature and knew it very well, so that ordinary people could be convinced to do extraordinary evils. Or ignore them. There was a police chief who was asked to round up Jews and other "undesirables" in his area and this did not sit well with him. So he told his men that they didn't have to do this and to go with their consciences and most did, leaving a handful of psychos and hardliners. He expected the hammer to fall on him, but it didn't. The nazis knew better and within weeks pretty much every one of them were back at their posts carrying out the original orders.

The governments job is to keep us on our toes and pretty scared all the time. Noam Chomsky also talk about this. So don't fall for the pseudo issues like multiculturalism. It's a concept for spreading and maintaining fear. We're first and foremost people. The foreigners will never drain the system. It is the politicians and political commentators that scare you with that to make sure you can be manipulated and used like a tool.

You're espousing a very American cultural set of notions there. This is not America.

[Deleted User]

ftbman wrote: »

Then make the politicians fix the welfare system. It's not a coincidence that things are the way they are. Politicians want to have it this way. It makes us fear and suspect all foreigners. People should look up the Nuremberg trials. The way the nazis made doctors, lawyers and pretty much everyone in Germany into brutal war criminals was by fear. Hermann Göring, the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (air force) said it very clearly.

The governments job is to keep us on our toes and pretty scared all the time. Noam Chomsky also talk about this. So don't fall for the pseudo issues like multiculturalism. It's a concept for spreading and maintaining fear. We're first and foremost people. The foreigners will never drain the system. It is the politicians and political commentators that scare you with that to make sure you can be manipulated and used like a tool.

You've managed to name call them all there, fair play:

Nazi's
Hermann Göring
Luftwaffe
Germany
Nuremberg trials
Pseudo issues like multiculturalism (whatever that means)
And finally topped off with a shout out to Noam Chomsky

WrenBoy

ftbman wrote: »

As someone clever used to say "Culture is not your friend". The question "What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland" is not the right question to ask. You should ask yourself what purpose does a culture serve and is it worth it?

History shows us that culture turns intelligent people into bigots and murderers. All it takes is a bunch of deranged "leaders" fighting for money and power. They instill fear into our hearts and heads, usually using cultural queues, and tragedies then happen.

Culture is not a universal constant. It is a mental construct that spawned a vicious circle we can't seem to break out of. If you look at the map of the World, you can see how messed up a concept culture is. It divides families and friends, it creates unspeakable differences, it hinders human development and fuels wars. So instead of focusing on multiculturalism, we should focus on more universal issues, like the quality of life, freedom of expression, freedom of travel and all freedoms that an abstract thinking species, able to emulate and dominate all life on the planet, should avail of. Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."

Hard disagree.

Wibbs

ftbman wrote: »

As someone clever used to say "Culture is not your friend".

The clever guy you reference was an aged hippie chap marinated in the 1960's in various herbs and spices of that age talking almost exclusively about the mass consumer culture of America.

The question "What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland" is not the right question to ask. You should ask yourself what purpose does a culture serve and is it worth it?

History shows us that culture turns intelligent people into bigots and murderers. All it takes is a bunch of deranged "leaders" fighting for money and power. They instill fear into our hearts and heads, usually using cultural queues, and tragedies then happen.

Culture is not a universal constant. It is a mental construct that spawned a vicious circle we can't seem to break out of. If you look at the map of the World, you can see how messed up a concept culture is. It divides families and friends, it creates unspeakable differences, it hinders human development and fuels wars. So instead of focusing on multiculturalism, we should focus on more universal issues, like the quality of life, freedom of expression, freedom of travel and all freedoms that an abstract thinking species, able to emulate and dominate all life on the planet, should avail of. Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."

Not more of this negative revisionist stuff(and usually pointed at western culture)... The same culture you decry gave us those very things you talk about; quality of life, freedom of expression, freedom of travel and every single thing you put value on in your life. The clothes you stand in, the room you're in, the arts and food and politics you consume, the machine you're typing that on and in the language you're typing it in came from culture. It gave us all the arts and sciences and philosophies too, but no, let us just look at the negatives like disconnected Eeyores. Culture formed and evolved us as a species and yer man couldn't have made his statement without it. It formed him to the degree you can pinpoint the time and place in one culture that his statement sprang from.

ftbman

Deleted User wrote: »

Trouble is, with our generous welfare system, they "don't stop til they get enough" and it annoys me. It's just the "way they make me feel". Makes me want to "scream".

Then make the politicians fix the welfare system. It's not a coincidence that things are the way they are. Politicians want to have it this way. It makes us fear and suspect all foreigners. People should look up the Nuremberg trials. The way the nazis made doctors, lawyers and pretty much everyone in Germany into brutal war criminals was by fear. Hermann Göring, the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (air force) said it very clearly.

The governments job is to keep us on our toes and pretty scared all the time. Noam Chomsky also talk about this. So don't fall for the pseudo issues like multiculturalism. It's a concept for spreading and maintaining fear. We're first and foremost people. The foreigners will never drain the system. It is the politicians and political commentators that scare you with that to make sure you can be manipulated and used like a tool.

Wibbs

ArthurDayne wrote: »

But you’re sort of saying it yourself here aren’t you? It would mitigate it. It seems perfectly reasonable to surmise that if all migrants came to Ireland with jobs and means then they would be able to afford by and large the same level of rented accommodation in places like Dublin that “native” Irish people in similar socioeconomic conditions could. I don’t often see the detractors of multiculturalism criticising the paradigm of foreign workers living in nice flats in Grand Canal Dock — it’s always seems to be focused on the more deprived end of the migrant socioeconomic scale where ghettoisation, illegal immigration, criminality etc seem to be generally more likely to be found.

Indeed, but show me a multicultural nation in Europe where similar socioeconomic migration is in play and lower socioeconomic migration isn't. You quite simply can't discuss one without the other and the wider debate itself by the government and NGO's almost exclusively focuses on that. Naturally as it is part and parcel of multiculturalism as it is applied in the west. Never mind that quite the percentage of that higher socioeconomic demographic aren't permanent residents. If Google left in the morning a large percentage of the housing in that area would be vacant in jig time.

That's before we get to the dialogue of what it means to be of a culture or of being native - and this is exclusively a western thing and recent with it - and how this is framed within the multicultural politic. I note you put native in inverted commas. Would you be as comfortable putting a native of Accra in same? We had the example of a Dublin city councillor stating that it was great that his area had more non Irish faces. Because why? Some sections in White Western thought seem to have this exoticism fetish for no obvious reasons.

[Deleted User]

Chips Lovell wrote: »

The issue really is that the thread is about multiculturalism, but in many cases it's used as an interchangeable term with immigration (illegal and legal).

Really? I haven't seen that. People use the terms differently. They do link/connect the problems associated with both, but I haven't seen posters using it as an interchangeable term.

Could you post up an example, from say.. four different posters, where they've done that?

Someone could be opposed to multiculturalism but support immigration. Or support multiculturalism and oppose illegal immigration. And so on...

Yup. Not sure why you're making such a point.

Chips Lovell

Deleted User wrote: »

Why can't we have a problem with both? Rather than multiculturalism or illegal/lower skilled immigration.

The issue really is that the thread is about multiculturalism, but in many cases it's used as an interchangeable term with immigration (illegal and legal). Someone could be opposed to multiculturalism but support immigration. Or support multiculturalism and oppose illegal immigration. And so on...

[Deleted User]

ftbman wrote: »

The Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."

It don't matter if you're "black or white". Anyone, regardless of culture can be a "smooth criminal" or simply "Bad". I just want them to "Leave me Alone" and if they try to come here illegally, they should be told to "Beat it".

Trouble is, with our generous welfare system, they "don't stop til they get enough" and it annoys me. It's just the "way they make me feel". Makes me want to "scream".

Ugh sorry.

ftbman

As someone clever used to say "Culture is not your friend". The question "What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland" is not the right question to ask. You should ask yourself what purpose does a culture serve and is it worth it?

History shows us that culture turns intelligent people into bigots and murderers. All it takes is a bunch of deranged "leaders" fighting for money and power. They instill fear into our hearts and heads, usually using cultural queues, and tragedies then happen.

Culture is not a universal constant. It is a mental construct that spawned a vicious circle we can't seem to break out of. If you look at the map of the World, you can see how messed up a concept culture is. It divides families and friends, it creates unspeakable differences, it hinders human development and fuels wars. So instead of focusing on multiculturalism, we should focus on more universal issues, like the quality of life, freedom of expression, freedom of travel and all freedoms that an abstract thinking species, able to emulate and dominate all life on the planet, should avail of. Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."

[Deleted User]

bubblypop wrote: »

I didn't say racism. If you think that is racism, fair enough. Those posters don't believe they are racist.

No you didn't. But it would be naive of anyone to believe that you didn't intentionally insinuate it.

And "those posters"?

I'd need to see the posts you refer to.

ArthurDayne

Wibbs wrote: »

The implementation of multiculturalism tends to lead to that though.
I'd still have issues around multiculturalism though. Specifically to do with the numbers involved, which inevitably leads to ghettoisation and the extra social problems that come from that, though again only allowing legal skilled/required people would mitigate that too. That horse has already bolted here though, as we had a decade odd long period where legality was either flouted, or loopholed and we didn't have nearly so stringent access to this country.

But you’re sort of saying it yourself here aren’t you? It would mitigate it. It seems perfectly reasonable to surmise that if all migrants came to Ireland with jobs and means then they would be able to afford by and large the same level of rented accommodation in places like Dublin that “native” Irish people in similar socioeconomic conditions could. I don’t often see the detractors of multiculturalism criticising the paradigm of foreign workers living in nice flats in Grand Canal Dock — it’s always seems to be focused on the more deprived end of the migrant socioeconomic scale where ghettoisation, illegal immigration, criminality etc seem to be generally more likely to be found.

If multiculturalism is the problem full stop, then the existence of foreign workers in Ireland is problematic full stop — regardless of their financial means or the legality of their being in the State. In that regard, the solution would simply be to take policy decisions, even if it meant leaving the EU, to deter foreign workers from coming here at all. If they stop coming here, then you have put the brakes on multiculturalism in Ireland indefinitely.

But if the problem is illegal immigration and / or the presence in Ireland of poor migrants — then we aren’t talking about multiculturalism being a problem, but the entry into the country of poorer migrants who may present more of a burden on State resources.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can you point out these posts please? I would like to see examples of such racism/xenophobia if you have them.

It's an extraordinary accusation which would require proof to confirm as true rather than dismiss as someone shouting "racism" at people they disagree with.

I didn't say racism. If you think that is racism, fair enough. Those posters don't believe they are racist.

Both klaz and wibbs have just posted their reasons.

[Deleted User]

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I guess though that this is where there seems to be a disconnect on this thread. It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.

Why can't we have a problem with both? Rather than multiculturalism or illegal/lower skilled immigration.

Mike Murdock

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I guess though that this is where there seems to be a disconnect on this thread. It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.

If every single migrant who came to Ireland did so legally, had skills we actively need, didn’t need Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take ...then would that be OK? It seems to me, in that context, your problem isn’t so much multiculturalism but simply the stringency of the immigration system — which are different things.

For me, yes. I don't care where you come from. The colour of your skin. Which religion you follow.

Come in, add your needed high value-skills, pay your taxes, follow the law of the land, and more power to you.

[Deleted User]

bubblypop wrote: »

Oh no.
I actually thought that for a while, that posters actually just had issues with illegal immigrants etc. But no, they just have issues with non Irish living here.

Yet another blatant lie from you.

People have an issue with the numbers and are calling for more controls similar to what is applied in many other first world nations.

[Deleted User]

bubblypop wrote: »

Oh no.
I actually thought that for a while, that posters actually just had issues with illegal immigrants etc. But no, they just have issues with non Irish living here.

Can you point out these posts please? I would like to see examples of such racism/xenophobia if you have them.

It's an extraordinary accusation which would require proof to confirm as true rather than dismiss as someone shouting "racism" at people they disagree with.

[Deleted User]

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I guess though that this is where there seems to be a disconnect on this thread. It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.

If every single migrant who came to Ireland did so legally, had skills we actively need, didn’t need Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take ...then would that be OK? It seems to me, in that context, your problem isn’t so much multiculturalism but simply the stringency of the immigration system — which are different things.

Oh no.
I actually thought that for a while, that posters actually just had issues with illegal immigrants etc. But no, they just have issues with non Irish living here.

Wibbs

ArthurDayne wrote: »

It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.

The implementation of multiculturalism tends to lead to that though.

If every single migrant who came to Ireland did so legally, had skills we actively need, didn’t need Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take ...then would that be OK? It seems to me, in that context, your problem isn’t so much multiculturalism but simply the stringency of the immigration system — which are different things.

I'd still have issues around multiculturalism though. Specifically to do with the numbers involved, which inevitably leads to ghettoisation and the extra social problems that come from that, though again only allowing legal skilled/required people would mitigate that too. That horse has already bolted here though, as we had a decade odd long period where legality was either flouted, or loopholed and we didn't have nearly so stringent access to this country.

ArthurDayne

Mike Murdock wrote: »

Bobby, most people on this thread could not give a toss where someone comes from as long as they come here through legal channels, have skills we actively need, don't need the Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take.

I guess though that this is where there seems to be a disconnect on this thread. It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.

If every single migrant who came to Ireland did so legally, had skills we actively need, didn’t need Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take ...then would that be OK? It seems to me, in that context, your problem isn’t so much multiculturalism but simply the stringency of the immigration system — which are different things.

Wibbs

Swindled wrote: »

This notion that Ireland can't produce enough capable young Irish people to be Doctors, engineers, Nurses, etc. and we should take them from countries that badly need their own, is bullshyte on so many levels.

We can and do produce them, but a lot of them leave for greener pastures like Australia for better pay and working conditions. Just like many extra EU medical staff come here for the same reasons.

bobbysands81

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Very interesting, can you provide a source?

Yes.

https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/Publications/Publication-files/Permits-by-Sector-2021.xlsx

bobbysands81

Swindled wrote: »

Oh but I do, that's the problem, I watched hundreds recruited at our workplace (large multinational) over the years for 32k, on the pretence the skills were not available locally, which was bull, because the local colleges were turning out very capable Irish graduates who were sending in CV's left right and centre looking for a start in life. They would have been perfect for 99% of the jobs, but the employer knew they could screw over the foreign workers more easily and hold the Visa renewal etc. over them, and they did exactly that.

This notion that Ireland can't produce enough capable young Irish people to be Doctors, engineers, Nurses, etc. and we should take them from countries that badly need their own, is bullshyte on so many levels.

You do realise that the Critical Skills List and the Ineligible Occupations List are reviewed twice a year? The reviews are evidence based using data from the CSO, SOLAS, and loads of other places?

Your IT multinational has to prove that they have tried to recruit in Ireland before they can apply for a General Employment Permit, there has to be verified labour shortages in the area in order to even be able to apply for an employment permit for that role. If there are no shortages, and the role is on the Ineligible List for Occupations, then it’s not possible to apply for an employment permit.

We are quite unique in that we have an Ineligible List so that the overwhelming majority of unskilled jobs are not eligible for employment permits?

As for Doctors, nurses and engineers, we have verified shortages in all these areas, thousands of non-EU doctors alone came to the country last year, the highest of any single occupation. Our health service is utterly reliant on these people.

As for holding the “visa renewal” over them, your choice of terminology shows you really don’t know what you’re talking about. An employee has to remain 12 months with their first employer but after that is free to move to any other employer they want... there is no “hold” over the employer as you maintain.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland should be doing the same as most non-western nations. Placing a higher value on citizenship. Restricting immigration for the vast majority of people to employment based visas, with limited time associated... and having requirements for education (like the minimum of a Bachelor) to weed out those who would provide very little value to the country.

But still with the objective of attracting talent to benefit the nation. Not bringing in people with dubious educational backgrounds, or people who will struggle to find employment.

This in a nutshell. We've already sowed the seeds of negatives around multiculturalism, no need to add to it.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I see the RTÉ website now have their own dedicated section on the Irish being racist.

It's mostly a lack of imagination on their part and following the current herd trend of race relations and the oppressed narrative. Any advice on the matter that they'll get will come from NGO's who will parrot the same spiel. Add in minor Irish "celebs" looking for their lifeblood, attention and here we are. And as usual RTE and the chattering classes will be running on a delay compared to the rest of Europe and the world.

Swindled

Fandymo wrote: »

So the white paper she talked about when mentioning 17k undocumented (illegals) she was lying??

Well either she is wrong or the migrant council is, they claim 30k, or perhaps both of them are.

Fandymo

Mike Murdock wrote: »

She's a politician. When they open their mouths, they are lying.

So the white paper she talked about when mentioning 17k undocumented (illegals) she was lying??