bubblypop wrote: » Oh no. I actually thought that for a while, that posters actually just had issues with illegal immigrants etc. But no, they just have issues with non Irish living here.
ArthurDayne wrote: » I guess though that this is where there seems to be a disconnect on this thread. It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.If every single migrant who came to Ireland did so legally, had skills we actively need, didn’t need Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take ...then would that be OK? It seems to me, in that context, your problem isn’t so much multiculturalism but simply the stringency of the immigration system — which are different things.
ArthurDayne wrote: » I guess though that this is where there seems to be a disconnect on this thread. It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.
[Deleted User] wrote: » Can you point out these posts please? I would like to see examples of such racism/xenophobia if you have them. It's an extraordinary accusation which would require proof to confirm as true rather than dismiss as someone shouting "racism" at people they disagree with.
Wibbs wrote: » The implementation of multiculturalism tends to lead to that though. I'd still have issues around multiculturalism though. Specifically to do with the numbers involved, which inevitably leads to ghettoisation and the extra social problems that come from that, though again only allowing legal skilled/required people would mitigate that too. That horse has already bolted here though, as we had a decade odd long period where legality was either flouted, or loopholed and we didn't have nearly so stringent access to this country.
bubblypop wrote: » I didn't say racism. If you think that is racism, fair enough. Those posters don't believe they are racist.
ftbman wrote: » The Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."
Deleted User wrote: » Why can't we have a problem with both? Rather than multiculturalism or illegal/lower skilled immigration.
Chips Lovell wrote: » The issue really is that the thread is about multiculturalism, but in many cases it's used as an interchangeable term with immigration (illegal and legal).
Someone could be opposed to multiculturalism but support immigration. Or support multiculturalism and oppose illegal immigration. And so on...
ArthurDayne wrote: » But you’re sort of saying it yourself here aren’t you? It would mitigate it. It seems perfectly reasonable to surmise that if all migrants came to Ireland with jobs and means then they would be able to afford by and large the same level of rented accommodation in places like Dublin that “native” Irish people in similar socioeconomic conditions could. I don’t often see the detractors of multiculturalism criticising the paradigm of foreign workers living in nice flats in Grand Canal Dock — it’s always seems to be focused on the more deprived end of the migrant socioeconomic scale where ghettoisation, illegal immigration, criminality etc seem to be generally more likely to be found.
Deleted User wrote: » Trouble is, with our generous welfare system, they "don't stop til they get enough" and it annoys me. It's just the "way they make me feel". Makes me want to "scream".
ftbman wrote: » As someone clever used to say "Culture is not your friend".
The question "What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland" is not the right question to ask. You should ask yourself what purpose does a culture serve and is it worth it? History shows us that culture turns intelligent people into bigots and murderers. All it takes is a bunch of deranged "leaders" fighting for money and power. They instill fear into our hearts and heads, usually using cultural queues, and tragedies then happen. Culture is not a universal constant. It is a mental construct that spawned a vicious circle we can't seem to break out of. If you look at the map of the World, you can see how messed up a concept culture is. It divides families and friends, it creates unspeakable differences, it hinders human development and fuels wars. So instead of focusing on multiculturalism, we should focus on more universal issues, like the quality of life, freedom of expression, freedom of travel and all freedoms that an abstract thinking species, able to emulate and dominate all life on the planet, should avail of. Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."
ftbman wrote: » As someone clever used to say "Culture is not your friend". The question "What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland" is not the right question to ask. You should ask yourself what purpose does a culture serve and is it worth it? History shows us that culture turns intelligent people into bigots and murderers. All it takes is a bunch of deranged "leaders" fighting for money and power. They instill fear into our hearts and heads, usually using cultural queues, and tragedies then happen. Culture is not a universal constant. It is a mental construct that spawned a vicious circle we can't seem to break out of. If you look at the map of the World, you can see how messed up a concept culture is. It divides families and friends, it creates unspeakable differences, it hinders human development and fuels wars. So instead of focusing on multiculturalism, we should focus on more universal issues, like the quality of life, freedom of expression, freedom of travel and all freedoms that an abstract thinking species, able to emulate and dominate all life on the planet, should avail of. Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."
ftbman wrote: » Then make the politicians fix the welfare system. It's not a coincidence that things are the way they are. Politicians want to have it this way. It makes us fear and suspect all foreigners. People should look up the Nuremberg trials. The way the nazis made doctors, lawyers and pretty much everyone in Germany into brutal war criminals was by fear. Hermann Göring, the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (air force) said it very clearly. The governments job is to keep us on our toes and pretty scared all the time. Noam Chomsky also talk about this. So don't fall for the pseudo issues like multiculturalism. It's a concept for spreading and maintaining fear. We're first and foremost people. The foreigners will never drain the system. It is the politicians and political commentators that scare you with that to make sure you can be manipulated and used like a tool.
ftbman wrote: » Then make the politicians fix the welfare system. It's not a coincidence that things are the way they are. Politicians want to have it this way.
It makes us fear and suspect all foreigners.
People should look up the Nuremberg trials. The way the nazis made doctors, lawyers and pretty much everyone in Germany into brutal war criminals was by fear. Hermann Göring, the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (air force) said it very clearly.
The governments job is to keep us on our toes and pretty scared all the time. Noam Chomsky also talk about this. So don't fall for the pseudo issues like multiculturalism. It's a concept for spreading and maintaining fear. We're first and foremost people. The foreigners will never drain the system. It is the politicians and political commentators that scare you with that to make sure you can be manipulated and used like a tool.
Wibbs wrote: » We can and do produce them, but a lot of them leave for greener pastures like Australia for better pay and working conditions. Just like many extra EU medical staff come here for the same reasons.
WrenBoy wrote: » Hard disagree.
MarkEadie wrote: » Humanity is in the business of progression, not regression.
Wibbs wrote: » That's some confidence you have. History shows us that it can be a very delicate thing. Hell, we watched Brexit unfold with our neighbour and immigration was high on the list of talking points and leanings towards leaving or not. We have debates on multiculturalism and migration going on in mainland Europe with more and more pushback against it. We're not even having the debate here. Yet. The last time migration was put to the Irish electorate in the birthright citizenship referendum it was closed off by a clear majority and a by a higher majority than in both the Repeal the 8th and SSM votes. And if it's such a "smaller subsection of society that falls for it" how come it's rarely a day that goes by without media and NGO pundits reminding us of the widespread problem of racism in Ireland?
Wibbs wrote: » Indeed, but show me a multicultural nation in Europe where similar socioeconomic migration is in play and lower socioeconomic migration isn't. You quite simply can't discuss one without the other and the wider debate itself by the government and NGO's almost exclusively focuses on that. Naturally as it is part and parcel of multiculturalism as it is applied in the west. Never mind that quite the percentage of that higher socioeconomic demographic aren't permanent residents. If Google left in the morning a large percentage of the housing in that area would be vacant in jig time. That's before we get to the dialogue of what it means to be of a culture or of being native - and this is exclusively a western thing and recent with it - and how this is framed within the multicultural politic. I note you put native in inverted commas. Would you be as comfortable putting a native of Accra in same? We had the example of a Dublin city councillor stating that it was great that his area had more non Irish faces. Because why? Some sections in White Western thought seem to have this exoticism fetish for no obvious reasons.
ArthurDayne wrote: » But you can discuss one without the other — and it’s the constant conflation of the two issues that muddles the argument. You can see that by the fact that, as I mentioned, people don’t really tend to focus on the full spectrum of multiculturalism — they focus on the illegal and the socioeconomically deprived end. I used to share a house in Dublin with a Ghanaian, a Mexican and a British-Lebanese — all of whom were professionals in tech, accounting and law and all of whom are still in Dublin. I would venture that if you drilled into this, some of the people reading this thread probably wouldn’t have much of an issue with that — it isn’t really the “type” of multiculturalism they have misgivings about — it’s the idea of poorly controlled immigration or asylum procedures allowing what they perceive to be a disproportionate amount of foreign nationals into the country who will place a burden on the State. Of course, there are those who would still be of the view that the presence of multiculturalism among professionals in leafy South Dublin is still a problem because they think multiculturalism is bad full stop. But that is a different camp — even if they share some or a lot of common ground on immigration policy — and one camp has a feasible future while the other does not. In my opinion, to be against multiculturalism is to be King Canute against the tide — it is to be doomed to rant and rail against an ever changing world that is destined to become more multicultural. Irish culture will change, parts of it will disappear, new parts will be born — change driven by the Irish born and the non-Irish born. There is no stopping it — and to fantasise how much better the world would be if humans of their own free will just gave up millennia of intermingling in favour of living in entirely monocultural nations (and that successful nations wouldn’t eventually attract other peoples) is a pure fantasy. Nonetheless, there is room in the world of reality for those who want better immigration policy. If they really want to take the fight to those who they see as the “woke” drivers of poorly managed immigration or asylum, they need to ditch the King Canutes who drag them into futile discussions on multiculturalism. That way, they might find themselves in an expanded middle ground of those who want sensible immigration policy while accepting the inevitability of multiculturalism. And then maybe you would get somewhere.
ArthurDayne wrote: » But you can discuss one without the other — and it’s the constant conflation of the two issues that muddles the argument. You can see that by the fact that, as I mentioned, people don’t really tend to focus on the full spectrum of multiculturalism — they focus on the illegal and the socioeconomically deprived end. I used to share a house in Dublin with a Ghanaian, a Mexican and a British-Lebanese — all of whom were professionals in tech, accounting and law and all of whom are still in Dublin. I would venture that if you drilled into this, some of the people reading this thread probably wouldn’t have much of an issue with that — it isn’t really the “type” of multiculturalism they have misgivings about — it’s the idea of poorly controlled immigration or asylum procedures allowing what they perceive to be a disproportionate amount of foreign nationals into the country who will place a burden on the State.
Of course, there are those who would still be of the view that the presence of multiculturalism among professionals in leafy South Dublin is still a problem because they think multiculturalism is bad full stop. But that is a different camp — even if they share some or a lot of common ground on immigration policy — and one camp has a feasible future while the other does not.
In my opinion, to be against multiculturalism is to be King Canute against the tide — it is to be doomed to rant and rail against an ever changing world that is destined to become more multicultural. Irish culture will change, parts of it will disappear, new parts will be born — change driven by the Irish born and the non-Irish born. There is no stopping it — and to fantasise how much better the world would be if humans of their own free will just gave up millennia of intermingling in favour of living in entirely monocultural nations (and that successful nations wouldn’t eventually attract other peoples) is a pure fantasy.
Nonetheless, there is room in the world of reality for those who want better immigration policy. If they really want to take the fight to those who they see as the “woke” drivers of poorly managed immigration or asylum, they need to ditch the King Canutes who drag them into futile discussions on multiculturalism. That way, they might find themselves in an expanded middle ground of those who want sensible immigration policy while accepting the inevitability of multiculturalism. And then maybe you would get somewhere.
WrenBoy wrote: » Amusing example of this on Newstalk this morning, had a fella on talking about the continuing issue of racism towards minorities in Ireland. The host quoted a study that reported that those of sub saharan African heritage are stopped an interacted with by A.G.S LESS than the majority Irish(caucasian) population (adjusted for population). The interviewee mis heard and went down a route of "exactly, there has always been over-policing of minority communities". When the host corrected him he basically just said "Ya, Well.. there is an over-policing of minority communities in this country" and they left it there :rolleyes:
ArthurDayne wrote: » Nonetheless, there is room in the world of reality for those who want better immigration policy. If they really want to take the fight to those who they see as the “woke” drivers of poorly managed immigration or asylum, they need to ditch the King Canutes who drag them into futile discussions on multiculturalism. That way, they might find themselves in an expanded middle ground of those who want sensible immigration policy while accepting the inevitability of multiculturalism. And then maybe you would get somewhere.
Bambi wrote: » Is multiculturalism inevitable outside of the West? Japan? Russia? Kuwait? China? Funny that.
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