The great myths of housing

Fred Cryton wrote: »

The biggest myth of all is that the Shinners will magic up cheap homes for all, using magically available new land and magically cheap labour and materials to build them.

Especially when Eoin O Brien celebrated the fact that Johnny Ronan didn't get to build a 1,000 homes in Docklands.

Where do the Shinners think the homes are going to come from if they go after the banks, the investment funds and the developers who actually build them.

Presumably a big state investment scheme. Like back in the day. Whether or not there’s the space is an issue.

fvp4 wrote: »

People want to live in the city they work in, you want them to live in Longford. Good luck.

i think the argument is if you are working somewhere and what you earn isnt enough to buy a property there and thats what you want, maybe looking at working some place else and living in that location may potentially make more sense?

Ace2007 wrote: »

And we've come full circle, and what my original point was - if you can't afford, stop complaining and buy where you can. To many people today want the dream home from Day 1.

People want to live in the city they work in, you want them to live in Longford. Good luck.

Brian? wrote: »

I would say 2% is rare, but it's subjective.

the context in which it was raised was in relation to million euro houses in expensive suburbs, in that context it isnt rare.

Brian?

GreeBo wrote: »

How is it simply wrong?
in 2016 1.9% of households had an income in excess of 200K, I'll go out on a limb and say that has increased.

I find it bizarre that you disagree that there are loads of couples on 125K, yet you think "quite a lot" of people emigrate from Ireland to The Netherlands...

Ok I withdraw my "quite a lot statement", that's a fair point.

I would say 2% is rare, but it's subjective.

Ray Palmer

Cal4567 wrote: »

We are also really behind the curve on being realistic. Many are very late coming to the party that Dublin, like any other capital city, is now very expensive to live in, whereas up until 2008, just about anyone on an average wage, or 2 of them combined, could have been able to buy something within the M50.

It was more exacerbated here because in the Celtic Tiger years banks gave mortgages to many who couldn’t in the end afford to make monthly payments.

It is this shock that is slowly registering with many. That they cannot afford where they want to be, even though there are 2 good jobs and they have deposits in place. That is a very common occurrence now across many cities in other countries.

If I was 40 years younger, I’d be getting a job elsewhere in the country or I’d be heading off to northern England or Scotland. Of course, it all depends what work you do. At the same time, the city needs new social and affordable housing. Key workers – nurses, teachers, shop workers, ambulance drivers, hospital porters, bin men. The list could go on and on.

This really is laughable. You are using 2008 when prices had crashed. The banks wouldn't lend money and people lost jobs. It was not affordable to buy a house for many people.

I was a first time buyer before this and house prices were going up 20% a year and more then. People were lying through their teeth to get mortgages. Fake payroll, saying they were going to rent a room, bonus pay claims etc...

You cannot ignore the public when it comes to the mess that is property market in Ireland. When a property shortage was warned the public were very vocal about the government making it up to help builder friends. So the government didn't invest in building and a hosuing shortage followed. The public insisted on this.

We do not have a lack of houses we have an occupancy issue. There is a ring of property around Dublin of retired people living on their own or a couple occupying large family homes. We are talking about 10-20% occupancy rates for many houses.

We should have places to downsize in these areas so people can stay local have better designed housing for their needs. Very unpopular as it isn't been sold as a real solution. People scream about people being kicked out of their houses ànd bedroom taxes.

So many people cannot discuss the topic of housing without some ideal fairyland solution that never address the money and how they will be built and who does it. It is all doomed to fail because they aren't looking at reality.

I have a place that could be made into a house. Nobody can tax me for a vacant site as it isn't. I won't develop it because landlord taxation and policies that favour the tenants. It just isn't worth it. Many people in a similar boat. Punatives taxes and legislation on small landlords is what a lot of the public want

bureau2009

Conor Skehan was Head of the Housing Agency at one stage.

I remember hearing him interviewed on radio during this time. According to Conor everything was going to be wonderful, houses would be brilliantly designed, plentiful etc etc. A lot of people raised eyebrows at the time.

So whatever he said in the Sindo I would take with a large pinch of salt. We need many different voices to speak on the housing crisis in Ireland. However, I'm far from convinced that Conor Skehan is a constructive voice on this issue.

HBC08

hgfj wrote: »

https://outline.com

Works for most sites - but not all.

Wow,that's great! Will be using that a lot in the future,thanks!

GreeBo wrote: »

There are pretty few vacant lots in the areas that people want to live though, so either they stump up and pay to live in the area they want, or they live somewhere else.

If there were no homes available in certain counties then people would have a point, but not being able to live where you want because you cant afford it is bizarre to me.
I was only able to buy where I wanted 3 houses later, people on low to middle incomes cant seriously expect to live in desirable locations, if they are desirable then its a fight over limited resources and those with more money will win out everytime, unless you interrupt the market.

And we've come full circle, and what my original point was - if you can't afford, stop complaining and buy where you can. To many people today want the dream home from Day 1.

Ace2007 wrote: »

Again, it's within the city that the huge issue is with prices and within the city that people have certain areas set on. The issue isn't a housing crises that the media portrait, it's houses not available when certain cohort of the population want.

You could build 10,000 luxury apartments in Baldoyle and you probably won't fill them as they aren't what people want.

when i say core city centre i mean D1 and D2 (areas where you probably wont have green space free) but if being built in ranelagh or dalkey then they need green space.

GreeBo

Ace2007 wrote: »

Again, it's within the city that the huge issue is with prices and within the city that people have certain areas set on. The issue isn't a housing crises that the media portrait, it's houses not available when certain cohort of the population want.

You could build 10,000 luxury apartments in Baldoyle and you probably won't fill them as they aren't what people want.

There are pretty few vacant lots in the areas that people want to live though, so either they stump up and pay to live in the area they want, or they live somewhere else.

If there were no homes available in certain counties then people would have a point, but not being able to live where you want because you cant afford it is bizarre to me.
I was only able to buy where I wanted 3 houses later, people on low to middle incomes cant seriously expect to live in desirable locations, if they are desirable then its a fight over limited resources and those with more money will win out everytime, unless you interrupt the market.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

yes but the same opinion over and over again is very tedious ( the capitalist system is the problem etc )

And for the sake of balance the two posters who are obsessed with social housing and those who live in them, rarely post about anything else. I use to think one was trolling but on balance not, it more comes across as the ranting is a release and a coping mechanism, the other comes across a quite an unlikeable individual.

Cyrus wrote: »

if building apartments (especially outside the core city centre) developers should be mandated to provide a certain (large) amount of communal green space per unit and underground lockups, that would make them a lot more interesting.

Again, it's within the city that the huge issue is with prices and within the city that people have certain areas set on. The issue isn't a housing crises that the media portrait, it's houses not available when certain cohort of the population want.

You could build 10,000 luxury apartments in Baldoyle and you probably won't fill them as they aren't what people want.

Mad_maxx

Brian? wrote: »

It's called having an opinion.

yes but the same opinion over and over again is very tedious ( the capitalist system is the problem etc )

micosoft

PauloMN wrote: »

Many other countries in Europe manage to have families living long term in apartments. The difference is in the quality of the build and what a buyer gets for their money. Typical apartments I've been in in other countries have a really high standard of quality - proper sound proofing between floors and between units, quality fittings, high ceilings, proper storage both within the apartment and assigned storage space in basements etc. (no bikes or other stuff on the balcony), assigned and secure car parking. IMO that quality - which turns an apartment into a proper long term solution for a family to live in rather than a place to crash for a few years - is missing in the majority of apartments I have been in in Ireland.

I simply could not imagine spending the rest of my life living in the typical apartment complex in Ireland, yet I've been in really beautiful apartments on the continent where I could have imagined living long term.

If apartments are a big part of the future in Ireland, and it looks like they have to be, then the ante has to be seriously upped in terms of quality and space. Will people be willing to spend 3 bed semi with garden in the suburbs money on an apartment though?

It's a really long term shift though and cultural. A lot of the middle class in the cities have houses in the country. A lot of this was built around climate - you wanted to escape the city in August because the heat was unbearable. So you disappeared to your country house...

PauloMN wrote: »

Many other countries in Europe manage to have families living long term in apartments. The difference is in the quality of the build and what a buyer gets for their money. Typical apartments I've been in in other countries have a really high standard of quality - proper sound proofing between floors and between units, quality fittings, high ceilings, proper storage both within the apartment and assigned storage space in basements etc. (no bikes or other stuff on the balcony), assigned and secure car parking. IMO that quality - which turns an apartment into a proper long term solution for a family to live in rather than a place to crash for a few years - is missing in the majority of apartments I have been in in Ireland.

I simply could not imagine spending the rest of my life living in the typical apartment complex in Ireland, yet I've been in really beautiful apartments on the continent where I could have imagined living long term.

If apartments are a big part of the future in Ireland, and it looks like they have to be, then the ante has to be seriously upped in terms of quality and space. Will people be willing to spend 3 bed semi with garden in the suburbs money on an apartment though?

i did in the past, and the apartment had all of the things you mention, large underground storage, secure parking, 1000 sq feet for a two bed, lovely communal grounds. But i have never been in a complex like it since i have to say.

went back recently to see the gardens if anything it looks better than it did 5 years ago.

if building apartments (especially outside the core city centre) developers should be mandated to provide a certain (large) amount of communal green space per unit and underground lockups, that would make them a lot more interesting.

micosoft

kippy wrote: »

There is no 'housing industry' - you simply cannot compare both.

There absolutely is a housing industry. It may be largely artisanal but it is there. And it's an absolutely fair question to ask if our current process to build housing is fit for purpose or could be enhanced. The answer is probably complex (tradition + skills + buyers expectations +etc) but I've no doubt a holistic look at how we build in Ireland would deliver efficiencies...

GreeBo

Brian? wrote: »

It doesn’t. Who said it should?

It actually helps keep the price of the houses with gardens down though because your don’t have 2-3 professional couples sharing them anymore. They buy an apartment

I dont think anyone is saying it should, but to borrow an argument, my parents were able to afford a house with a garden on a single salary, why do I have to live in an apartment with no garden?

Wouldnt reducing the price of desirable houses with gardens increase demand and therefore increase the cost again?

PauloMN

Many other countries in Europe manage to have families living long term in apartments. The difference is in the quality of the build and what a buyer gets for their money. Typical apartments I've been in in other countries have a really high standard of quality - proper sound proofing between floors and between units, quality fittings, high ceilings, proper storage both within the apartment and assigned storage space in basements etc. (no bikes or other stuff on the balcony), assigned and secure car parking. IMO that quality - which turns an apartment into a proper long term solution for a family to live in rather than a place to crash for a few years - is missing in the majority of apartments I have been in in Ireland.

I simply could not imagine spending the rest of my life living in the typical apartment complex in Ireland, yet I've been in really beautiful apartments on the continent where I could have imagined living long term.

If apartments are a big part of the future in Ireland, and it looks like they have to be, then the ante has to be seriously upped in terms of quality and space. Will people be willing to spend 3 bed semi with garden in the suburbs money on an apartment though?

Fred Cryton

The biggest myth of all is that the Shinners will magic up cheap homes for all, using magically available new land and magically cheap labour and materials to build them.

Especially when Eoin O Brien celebrated the fact that Johnny Ronan didn't get to build a 1,000 homes in Docklands.

Where do the Shinners think the homes are going to come from if they go after the banks, the investment funds and the developers who actually build them.

GreeBo

Brian? wrote: »

Because the poster said there are "loads of couples on 125k" each. That's simply wrong, I never said anything about expensive areas.

How is it simply wrong?
in 2016 1.9% of households had an income in excess of 200K, I'll go out on a limb and say that has increased.

I find it bizarre that you disagree that there are loads of couples on 125K, yet you think "quite a lot" of people emigrate from Ireland to The Netherlands...

timmyntc wrote: »

1) There are loads of family houses being rented to students or groups of professionals. These people would definitely rent apartments closer to the city centre if they were there and affordable. This would free up a lot of existing stock for families to rent or buy.

2) We can make apartments large enough to raise a family in. It wont be for everyone, but there will no doubt be plenty of people who would be more than happy to live in a central 3 bed apartment with good transport links and amenities nearby.

And how much would these apartments cost? Whose going to fund the building of them?

Idbatterim

timmyntc wrote: »

1) There are loads of family houses being rented to students or groups of professionals. These people would definitely rent apartments closer to the city centre if they were there and affordable. This would free up a lot of existing stock for families to rent or buy.

2) We can make apartments large enough to raise a family in. It wont be for everyone, but there will no doubt be plenty of people who would be more than happy to live in a central 3 bed apartment with good transport links and amenities nearby.

YES! back to square one we need well located and reasonably priced apartments! Yet there will be talk here for years to come, over how to solve this, its pathetic and exhausting!

They wont build infrastructure here either, so redeveloping and building in established , serviced areas, makes by far the most sense. Where people can walk, cycle or have some semi decent bus route. That wont take an hour and a half to get into town, which it wont, even with the scandalous transport system here... if you are on 4-6 km out of the centre...

huge amounts of low rise crap commercial was built in the docklands, it should be rezoned for apartments...

Ubbquittious

fvp4 wrote: »

We can't build anymore semi detached houses in the centre, or easy suburbs, of Dublin. So apartments is the future.

Or start pressurising the existing vacant and derelict houses to become usable houses again. Also a lot of the office buildings will be partially empty since the ushering in of working from home, these can be turned into apartments without the need to build anything new

timmyntc

Ace2007 wrote: »

But it's family homes that people are complaining about that they are been out bid on and can't buy in the areas they want to.

Those bidding 500k+ on houses are not interested in buying apartments.

1) There are loads of family houses being rented to students or groups of professionals. These people would definitely rent apartments closer to the city centre if they were there and affordable. This would free up a lot of existing stock for families to rent or buy.

2) We can make apartments large enough to raise a family in. It wont be for everyone, but there will no doubt be plenty of people who would be more than happy to live in a central 3 bed apartment with good transport links and amenities nearby.

Idbatterim

here is another issue, developer lead planning, they build what is easiest to build or mos profitable. Totally understandable...

HOWEVER there are many developments in my area of Dublin, houses were put up, when they should only be giving permission for apartments. You can then have people downsize into these apartments etc, and have much higher density. Rather than 5 bed homes going in. It is totally ridiculous...

Maybe there need to be incentives given to downsize, a proper LPT would do the job, like they have in properly run countries, but cant seem them touching that here. I cant answer how to solve problems here, when they arent prepared to change ANYTHING. Answers on a back of a postcard :rolleyes:

fvp4 wrote: »

We can't build anymore semi detached houses in the centre, or easy suburbs, of Dublin. So apartments is the future.

But it's family homes that people are complaining about that they are been out bid on and can't buy in the areas they want to.

Those bidding 500k+ on houses are not interested in buying apartments.

Ace2007 wrote: »

So those looking to buy a family home are still no better off?

Instead we will have years of legal battles and appeals because no one wants high rise apartments in their area.

Who do you want to fund these apartment blocks, and the legal challengers that will follow because of planning laws?

All you have to do is use google - you had houses earmarked for St. Anne's Park granted premission, appealled, appealed again - no idea what's happened with it now, but folk want houses, but not in green areas, so where do they build them - on the outskirts of Dublin?

We can't build anymore semi detached houses in the centre, or easy suburbs, of Dublin. So apartments is the future.

Brian?

Ace2007 wrote: »

So those looking to buy a family home are still no better off?

Instead we will have years of legal battles and appeals because no one wants high rise apartments in their area.

Who do you want to fund these apartment blocks, and the legal challengers that will follow because of planning laws?

All you have to do is use google - you had houses earmarked for St. Anne's Park granted premission, appealled, appealed again - no idea what's happened with it now, but folk want houses, but not in green areas, so where do they build them - on the outskirts of Dublin?

Why do you ignore my points?

If there are more apartments built in the city then there is less demand for houses. Keeping the prices down.

If older people downsize, the number of 2nd houses for sale goes up. Keeping prices down.

The system is broken and needs to be changed. Planning included. Fiddling round the edges just gets us more of the same.