What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Well, let's say a government of the day, or group of senior civil servants decided to roll back say the right to choose, or same sex marriage and influenced the government to over ride either of those constitutional amendments, would the reaction from certain quarters be so blase?

I think we all know exactly what the reaction would be.

Indeed and both those passed by much lower margins.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That's right Wibbs the elected government of Ireland is going to make decisions on how to run the state. Is that not the mandate of a Government?

It's as if you're physically allergic to any points being made: Our Justice Minister is going to reward nearly 20,000 people for breaking a number of our laws and over many years.

bubblypop wrote: »

What about the Israelis??

Israel is a very complex situation to make much judgement on the matter of the thread. Now one can argue whether Israel has a right or need to exist - I would argue it does on both counts - however the plain fact is that modern Israel is a post war colony based on ethnicity, ideology, religion and history, a plantation of an existing region with existing peoples, peoples that have been systematically pushed ever out into smaller and smaller enclaves within that state. It's certainly no poster child for multiculturalism that's for sure. If anything it's an extreme example of why and how it won't and can't work when differences are large enough.

clytemnestra

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed, but in the usual run of things we don't as a society reward them for doing so. Our Justice Minister is going to reward nearly 20,000 people for breaking a number of our laws and over many years.

I can see that happening alright. It already did with the mass influx into the EU of a few years ago and the EU sent the wrong message by appearing to accommodate that too often. They should have nipped it in the bud like Australia, but Germany wanted more young workers. Turks Part Deux. I can also see attitudes really hardening, even among people from previous migrations who will pull up the ladder behind them. I can also see the risk of serious conflict on the back of it. It could well be seen as the invasion it actually is and hostilities could break out. Ireland is the odd man out in many ways , mainly I suspect because it's so new to us, as attitudes in Europe are already hardening, another such influx won't go nearly so well.

"the invasion it actually is" is right. I watch a variety of news sources and it was extraordinary how different outlets reported the 2015 influx. BBC had "Migrants teargassed at border" - it was somewhere in the Balkans. RT.com showed the exact same footage but they showed the crowds of men chanting "Allahu Akbar" and smashing up a border post and tearing down fences which led to the teargassing. BBC left out that bit.

bubblypop wrote: »

What about the Israelis??

Yep and the Israelis, the accepted international solution is a two state one. Not forced "multiculturalism" and colonisation by either over the other.

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Well, let's say a government of the day, or group of senior civil servants decided to roll back say the right to choose, or same sex marriage and influenced the government to over ride either of those constitutional amendments, would the reaction from certain quarters be so blase?

I think we all know exactly what the reaction would be.

You know civil servants can't roll back an amendment to the constitution or enact legislation. You know this right?

The Dail can't roll back a constitutional amendment either. They can enact legislation which is not unconstitutional. And the state needs the government to be able to enact legislation otherwise what is its purpose and who would enact legislation.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That's right Wibbs the elected government of Ireland is going to make decisions on how to run the state. Is that not the mandate of a Government?

I am curious what is your opinion on people who come here illegally ?

Are you suggesting that I and others who pay tax should see our money going to not only allow those people who willingly broke the law to not only stay here, but pay for their housing and handouts as well ?
Meanwhile our own poor , and those on the smallest wages get little or no state benefits, they wait over 3 times longer for housing etc.

In what warped ****ed up world should criminal immigrants get priority over our own people by a government our own people put in place ?

How can you not grasp the governments first priority is to its own populace and their needs. Why should we help others before our own.

I cannot go to america on holiday, decide to stay and demand housing, I will be sent home, which is their absolute right.

There has to be a cap on the numbers we decide to accept.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I am curious what is your opinion on people who come here illegally ?

People don't come here illegally. They overstay their visa. My opinion on people who overstay their visa is their visa is expired and they should return home or look to regularise their visa status. I don't think staying undocumented in a country is positive for the state or the individuals.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Are you suggesting that I and others who pay tax should see our money going to not only allow those people who willingly broke the law to not only stay here, but pay for their housing and handouts as well ?

Are you talking about refugees or people on expired visas. The undocumented or expired visa individuals are not getting state handouts at the moment. They are undocumented and so not in receipt of social welfare payments or other kinds of state benefits. They are working in untaxed unregistered employment. And in many instances are being taken advantage of by their employer.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Meanwhile our own poor , and those on the smallest wages get little or no state benefits, they wait over 3 times longer for housing etc.

Who are you taking about now. Those claiming refugee status or people illegally in the country.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

In what warped ****ed up world should criminal immigrants get priority over our own people by a government our own people put in place ?

So I take you want a fair and reasonable discussion on this.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

How can you not grasp the governments first priority is to its own populace and their needs. Why should we help others before our own.

No off on a rant. OK.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I cannot go to america on holiday, decide to stay and demand housing, I will be sent home, which is their absolute right.
There has to be a cap on the numbers we decide to accept.

Just like the irish undocumented in America you can go there and overstay your visa. And just like the undocumented here no you won't be entitled to social welfare.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

People don't come here illegally. .

lol . . yep no has ever entered Ireland illegally without a Visa, in the back of a lorry, or via NI. :rolleyes:

It would be nice if we stopped with the mealy mouthed dressed up for the media and the naive moniker of "undocumented", they are illegal immigrants here illegally and wilfully so. Unless they are trafficked individuals, victims of crime they should be deported, not rewarded with citizenship and a leg up on the social services ladder. I would also fine/gaol those Irish or non Irish who employed them and avoided paying tax. And yes I would apply the exact same criteria to the illegal Irish in America.

Wibbs wrote: »

It would be nice if we stopped with the mealy mouthed dressed up for the media and the naive moniker of "undocumented", they are illegal immigrants here illegally and wilfully so. Unless they are trafficked individuals, victims of crime they should be deported, not rewarded with citizenship and a leg up on the social services ladder. I would also fine/gaol those Irish or non Irish who employed them and avoided paying tax. And yes I would apply the exact same criteria to the illegal Irish in America.

It's the new back door policy now, come all ye illegally you will be atomically given "Irish/EU" citizenship and houses.

Wibbs wrote: »

It would be nice if we stopped with the mealy mouthed dressed up for the media and the naive moniker of "undocumented", they are illegal immigrants here illegally and wilfully so. Unless they are trafficked individuals, victims of crime they should be deported, not rewarded with citizenship and a leg up on the social services ladder. I would also fine/gaol those Irish or non Irish who employed them and avoided paying tax. And yes I would apply the exact same criteria to the illegal Irish in America.

Good for you. Now all you need is to get elected.

Swindled wrote: »

lol . . yep no has ever entered Ireland illegally without a Visa, in the back of a lorry, or via NI. :rolleyes:

no no no, he said that does not happen, he is an expert on customs and immigration apparently. He has decided no one ever has entered this country illegally.

And if someone who comes in illegally, knowingly breaking the law, and is deported, we should welcome them back with open arms too, you and I can cough up our tax money to make sure he or she gets a nice house and all the benefits, whilst my buddy who is on the housing list over 10 years can piss off, as the immigrant are more important it seems.

but how dare we who pays the tax, votes for the politicians to represent us be annoyed.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Good for you. Now all you need is to get elected.

I'm afraid you would not make a very good politician yourself, claim after claim you've made has been shot through. Don't give up the day job lad.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

People don't come here illegally. They overstay their visa. My opinion on people who overstay their visa is their visa is expired and they should return home or look to regularise their visa status. I don't think staying undocumented in a country is positive for the state or the individuals.

"Undocumented" and "overstay their visa", the all too usual avoidance of the realities. They are illegal immigrants deliberately staying in a country illegally and tax evaders on top, as are those Irish and non Irish employing them. If I wilfully avoided paying tax for five years I'm quite sure you'd have little issue describing me in criminal terms as a tax evader and rightfully, yet these poor dear "undocumented" get far more leeway for some reason.

Who are you taking about now. Those claiming refugee status or people illegally in the country.

Avoidance and misdirection yet again. Never change... Those claiming refugee status who are actual refugees are a small percentage of those claiming that status. The relevant depts figures show this. EG less than a couple of percent of those looking for refugee/asylum status from places like Nigeria and Georgia are deemed legitimate. The rest are chancers. Though it's odd how they weren't before 2004... Magic. The number of illegals is far higher, nearly 20,000 of them at last count(and that count will almost certainly rise with this ridiculous amnesty, never mind family reunification stuff that will be in play). Justin was quite clear in his post; Meanwhile our own poor , and those on the smallest wages get little or no state benefits, they wait over 3 times longer for housing etc. Our own poor, the native Irish, are already facing housing challenges, never mind the fallout from over a year of an ongoing pandemic, as even are many of our middle class, yet the "justice" minister is hellbent on naturalising nearly 20,000 illegals, another has come up with a proposal for replacing DP with a stated aim of getting non EU individuals into accommodation within months. You couldn't make it up. Well outside of the usual NGO wasters with their snouts in the trough looking for more who find this stuff comes naturally to them and have the ear of too many who make policy.

So I take you want a fair and reasonable discussion on this.

Indeed....

Just like the irish undocumented in America you can go there and overstay your visa. And just like the undocumented here no you won't be entitled to social welfare.

And they should be deported. They'll almost certainly not get an amnesty, nor should they and even if they did they won't be housed and have access to a social welfare system that's one of the highest in the world.

Good for you. Now all you need is to get elected.

You really are allergic to any kind of measured responses.

Swindled wrote: »

I'm afraid you would not make a very good politician yourself.

Actually avoidance of points that one has no reasonable response to and going off on a different tangent when again one has no reasonable response to sounds like quite the fit for many a politician.

Swindled wrote: »

It's the new back door policy now, come all ye illegally you will be atomically given "Irish/EU" citizenship and houses.

Well that's who it will most certainly be seen by many the chancer out there. Just like the pregnancy passports of the past. Don't bother with seeking asylum status as they're onto to the majority of us now, enter the country illegally through existing networks for that sorta thing, bide your time, earn a few quid off the books and wait until you magically become "undocumented", throw in some juicy backstory about racism and hardship in "your" new country and voila! Road to citizenship open. You really couldn't make this level of BS up.

Wibbs wrote: »

Well that's who it will most certainly be seen by many the chancer out there. Just like the pregnancy passports of the past. Don't bother with seeking asylum status as they're onto to the majority of us now, enter the country illegally through existing networks for that sorta thing, bide your time, earn a few quid off the books and wait until you magically become "undocumented", throw in some juicy backstory about racism and hardship in "your" new country and voila! Road to citizenship open. You really couldn't make this level of BS up.

It's not simple incompetency either, it's a clear "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" from those in power, who are intent on the re-plantation of Ireland.

Swindled wrote: »

It's not simple incompetency either, it's a clear "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" from those in power, who are intent on the re-plantation of Ireland.

Never ascribe to conspiracy something that can be far more easily explained by naivete, following the trend de jour or stupidity or vested interests who get funding and attention.

It's far more about appearing to be "right on" and buying into the multicultural politic, even though other nations, even nations with much worse demographic age shifts are dialling back on it. Ireland has always been the insecure plain girl at the ball, eager to please whatever master or credo that's in earshot at the time hoping for a dance. Being Ms O'Righton is just the current manifestation of it.

Wibbs wrote: »

Never ascribe to conspiracy something that can be far more easily explained by naivete, following the trend de jour or stupidity or vested interests who get funding and attention.

It's far more about appearing to be "right on" and buying into the multicultural politic, even though other nations, even nations with much worse demographic age shifts are dialling back on it. Ireland has always been the insecure plain girl at the ball, eager to please whatever master or credo that's in earshot at the time hoping for a dance. Being Ms O'Righton is just the current manifestation of it.

I don't subscribe it to "conspiracy" at all, it was a very clear, open change in practice, and legal precedent, involving co-ordination and co-operation of multiple departments, and was thoroughly announced/advertised and heralded throughout the media . . not some incompetent "oops I was woke" accident.
"Ireland" doesn't take a piss without EU approval. It's an EU province, not a sovereign country in charge of its own laws, courts, borders, banking system and currency. They know exactly the rates coming in, and the population changes.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Jesus christ your world is depressing wibbs.

but more real than the delusional one you live in where there is no illegal immigrants
where seemingly no one is manipulating the system.
Where we all should embrace the fact our tax should go on housing people ahead of our own

Burkie1203

Interesting. Seems the Nkenchos have two homes now.

https://twitter.com/emmetmalone/status/1395664505384980484?s=19

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Jesus christ your world is depressing wibbs.

I cry into my brandy on long winter evenings over it all.

Swindled wrote: »

I don't subscribe it to "conspiracy" at all, it was a very clear, open change in practice, involving co-ordination and co-operation of multiple departments, and was thoroughly announced/advertised and heralded throughout the media . . not some incompetent "oops I was woke" accident.
"Ireland" doesn't take a piss without EU approval. It's an EU province, not a sovereign country in charge of its own laws, courts, borders, banking system and currency. They know exactly the rates coming in, and the population changes.

Which sounds great in theory, but the fact is Ireland is below our apparent responsibility in numbers of asylum seekers brought in and we refuse more and at higher percentages than other EU nations. By comparison to nations like Germany and Sweden we took in significantly fewer in the current wave.

What actually happened was the Celtic Tiger and at the exact same time the birthright loophole. Perfect storm really. That's when the real numbers of non EU migrants started to show up and claim residency. EU migration was in play as well of course as there were opportunities here and it was and remains by far the largest demographic here.

Not that you'd necessarily know it by looking at NGO or media or government musings and latterly even advertising, or indeed the more fevered in the National party, where "diversity" and the New Irish are almost always represented by the dark of skin folks. However the number of Africans in Ireland is around the 20,000 mark. Poles number over 120,000. Six times more. British 100,000. Five times more. Well over 10,000 Spaniards and Italians respectively, 20,000 Latvians and so on. The vast majority of whom are White Europeans. As I noted earlier in the thread it seems that diversity on one side and animosity on the other is squarely aimed at dark skinned people. Both sides have the horn for the exotic.

We dropped the ball on the non EU migrants and by the time the ball was picked up we already had a large head of people here, so now we're in mitigation and spin mode to cover up those cracks. Cracks like near 20,000 "undocumented", that we know of. By their very nature it's hard to document the undocumented. We've taken the spin playbook on multiculturalism from other nations who've already been down this road, again to try and mitigate the negatives.

Why do posters think that people who are living here, illegally, and are clearly looking after themselves are suddenly going to throw themselves into dole queues and housing queues?

bubblypop wrote: »

Why do posters think that people who are living here, illegally, and are clearly looking after themselves are suddenly going to throw themselves into dole queues and housing queues?

You do know that you don't have to be on the dole to be eligible for social housing?
Or are you going to tell us that any illegal undocumented immigrants being paid under the table and off the books by unscrupulous employers, or those that were "self employed entrepreneurs" are in fact highly paid "Doctors and Engineers and Professionals" ?

bubblypop wrote: »

Why do posters think that people who are living here, illegally, and are clearly looking after themselves are suddenly going to throw themselves into dole queues and housing queues?

do I really have to point out to you the people who are here illegally SHOULD NOT BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE ??

So it is hardly a shock to comprehend they cannot go and sign on or apply for housing.....because ...wait for it....they should not be here illegally.

One member seems to think we have no one in this country illegally....let that sink in.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

do I really have to point out to you the people who are here illegally SHOULD NOT BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE ??

So it is hardly a shock to comprehend they cannot go and sign on or apply for housing.....because ...wait for it....they should not be here illegally.

One member seems to think we have no one in this country illegally....let that sink in.

Seriously?
I know they are illegal, the question is why do you assume they will jump into dole queues and housing queues if/when they are made legal?

Swindled wrote: »

You do know that you don't have to be on the dole to be eligible for social housing?
Or are you going to tell us that any illegal undocumented immigrants being paid under the table and off the books by unscrupulous employers, or those that were "self employed entrepreneurs" are in fact highly paid "Doctors and Engineers and Professionals" ?

Obviously.
Which is why I asked the question about dole queues and housing queues, two different queues.

bubblypop wrote: »

Seriously?
I know they are illegal, the question is why do you assume they will jump into dole queues and housing queues if/when they are made legal?

Well they are hardly smuggling in , in the back of trucks to work as brain surgeons.