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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

Threadbanned Users:
DelaneyIn
TheCitizen
V8 Interceptor
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Effects
biko
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Eric Cartman
Swindled
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blindjustice
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Burkie1203

Interesting. Seems the Nkenchos have two homes now.

https://twitter.com/emmetmalone/status/1395664505384980484?s=19

Justin Credible Darts

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Jesus christ your world is depressing wibbs.

but more real than the delusional one you live in where there is no illegal immigrants
where seemingly no one is manipulating the system.
Where we all should embrace the fact our tax should go on housing people ahead of our own

Swindled

Wibbs wrote: »

Never ascribe to conspiracy something that can be far more easily explained by naivete, following the trend de jour or stupidity or vested interests who get funding and attention.

It's far more about appearing to be "right on" and buying into the multicultural politic, even though other nations, even nations with much worse demographic age shifts are dialling back on it. Ireland has always been the insecure plain girl at the ball, eager to please whatever master or credo that's in earshot at the time hoping for a dance. Being Ms O'Righton is just the current manifestation of it.

I don't subscribe it to "conspiracy" at all, it was a very clear, open change in practice, and legal precedent, involving co-ordination and co-operation of multiple departments, and was thoroughly announced/advertised and heralded throughout the media . . not some incompetent "oops I was woke" accident.
"Ireland" doesn't take a piss without EU approval. It's an EU province, not a sovereign country in charge of its own laws, courts, borders, banking system and currency. They know exactly the rates coming in, and the population changes.

Wibbs

Swindled wrote: »

It's not simple incompetency either, it's a clear "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" from those in power, who are intent on the re-plantation of Ireland.

Never ascribe to conspiracy something that can be far more easily explained by naivete, following the trend de jour or stupidity or vested interests who get funding and attention.

It's far more about appearing to be "right on" and buying into the multicultural politic, even though other nations, even nations with much worse demographic age shifts are dialling back on it. Ireland has always been the insecure plain girl at the ball, eager to please whatever master or credo that's in earshot at the time hoping for a dance. Being Ms O'Righton is just the current manifestation of it.

Swindled

Wibbs wrote: »

Well that's who it will most certainly be seen by many the chancer out there. Just like the pregnancy passports of the past. Don't bother with seeking asylum status as they're onto to the majority of us now, enter the country illegally through existing networks for that sorta thing, bide your time, earn a few quid off the books and wait until you magically become "undocumented", throw in some juicy backstory about racism and hardship in "your" new country and voila! Road to citizenship open. You really couldn't make this level of BS up.

It's not simple incompetency either, it's a clear "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" from those in power, who are intent on the re-plantation of Ireland.

Wibbs

Swindled wrote: »

It's the new back door policy now, come all ye illegally you will be atomically given "Irish/EU" citizenship and houses.

Well that's who it will most certainly be seen by many the chancer out there. Just like the pregnancy passports of the past. Don't bother with seeking asylum status as they're onto to the majority of us now, enter the country illegally through existing networks for that sorta thing, bide your time, earn a few quid off the books and wait until you magically become "undocumented", throw in some juicy backstory about racism and hardship in "your" new country and voila! Road to citizenship open. You really couldn't make this level of BS up.

Wibbs

Swindled wrote: »

I'm afraid you would not make a very good politician yourself.

Actually avoidance of points that one has no reasonable response to and going off on a different tangent when again one has no reasonable response to sounds like quite the fit for many a politician.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

People don't come here illegally. They overstay their visa. My opinion on people who overstay their visa is their visa is expired and they should return home or look to regularise their visa status. I don't think staying undocumented in a country is positive for the state or the individuals.

"Undocumented" and "overstay their visa", the all too usual avoidance of the realities. They are illegal immigrants deliberately staying in a country illegally and tax evaders on top, as are those Irish and non Irish employing them. If I wilfully avoided paying tax for five years I'm quite sure you'd have little issue describing me in criminal terms as a tax evader and rightfully, yet these poor dear "undocumented" get far more leeway for some reason.

Who are you taking about now. Those claiming refugee status or people illegally in the country.

Avoidance and misdirection yet again. Never change... Those claiming refugee status who are actual refugees are a small percentage of those claiming that status. The relevant depts figures show this. EG less than a couple of percent of those looking for refugee/asylum status from places like Nigeria and Georgia are deemed legitimate. The rest are chancers. Though it's odd how they weren't before 2004... Magic. The number of illegals is far higher, nearly 20,000 of them at last count(and that count will almost certainly rise with this ridiculous amnesty, never mind family reunification stuff that will be in play). Justin was quite clear in his post; Meanwhile our own poor , and those on the smallest wages get little or no state benefits, they wait over 3 times longer for housing etc. Our own poor, the native Irish, are already facing housing challenges, never mind the fallout from over a year of an ongoing pandemic, as even are many of our middle class, yet the "justice" minister is hellbent on naturalising nearly 20,000 illegals, another has come up with a proposal for replacing DP with a stated aim of getting non EU individuals into accommodation within months. You couldn't make it up. Well outside of the usual NGO wasters with their snouts in the trough looking for more who find this stuff comes naturally to them and have the ear of too many who make policy.

So I take you want a fair and reasonable discussion on this.

Indeed....

Just like the irish undocumented in America you can go there and overstay your visa. And just like the undocumented here no you won't be entitled to social welfare.

And they should be deported. They'll almost certainly not get an amnesty, nor should they and even if they did they won't be housed and have access to a social welfare system that's one of the highest in the world.

Good for you. Now all you need is to get elected.

You really are allergic to any kind of measured responses.

Swindled

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Good for you. Now all you need is to get elected.

I'm afraid you would not make a very good politician yourself, claim after claim you've made has been shot through. Don't give up the day job lad.

Justin Credible Darts

Swindled wrote: »

lol . . yep no has ever entered Ireland illegally without a Visa, in the back of a lorry, or via NI. :rolleyes:

no no no, he said that does not happen, he is an expert on customs and immigration apparently. He has decided no one ever has entered this country illegally.

And if someone who comes in illegally, knowingly breaking the law, and is deported, we should welcome them back with open arms too, you and I can cough up our tax money to make sure he or she gets a nice house and all the benefits, whilst my buddy who is on the housing list over 10 years can piss off, as the immigrant are more important it seems.

but how dare we who pays the tax, votes for the politicians to represent us be annoyed.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

It would be nice if we stopped with the mealy mouthed dressed up for the media and the naive moniker of "undocumented", they are illegal immigrants here illegally and wilfully so. Unless they are trafficked individuals, victims of crime they should be deported, not rewarded with citizenship and a leg up on the social services ladder. I would also fine/gaol those Irish or non Irish who employed them and avoided paying tax. And yes I would apply the exact same criteria to the illegal Irish in America.

Good for you. Now all you need is to get elected.

Swindled

Wibbs wrote: »

It would be nice if we stopped with the mealy mouthed dressed up for the media and the naive moniker of "undocumented", they are illegal immigrants here illegally and wilfully so. Unless they are trafficked individuals, victims of crime they should be deported, not rewarded with citizenship and a leg up on the social services ladder. I would also fine/gaol those Irish or non Irish who employed them and avoided paying tax. And yes I would apply the exact same criteria to the illegal Irish in America.

It's the new back door policy now, come all ye illegally you will be atomically given "Irish/EU" citizenship and houses.

Wibbs

It would be nice if we stopped with the mealy mouthed dressed up for the media and the naive moniker of "undocumented", they are illegal immigrants here illegally and wilfully so. Unless they are trafficked individuals, victims of crime they should be deported, not rewarded with citizenship and a leg up on the social services ladder. I would also fine/gaol those Irish or non Irish who employed them and avoided paying tax. And yes I would apply the exact same criteria to the illegal Irish in America.

Swindled

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

People don't come here illegally. .

lol . . yep no has ever entered Ireland illegally without a Visa, in the back of a lorry, or via NI. :rolleyes:

[Deleted User]

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I am curious what is your opinion on people who come here illegally ?

People don't come here illegally. They overstay their visa. My opinion on people who overstay their visa is their visa is expired and they should return home or look to regularise their visa status. I don't think staying undocumented in a country is positive for the state or the individuals.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Are you suggesting that I and others who pay tax should see our money going to not only allow those people who willingly broke the law to not only stay here, but pay for their housing and handouts as well ?

Are you talking about refugees or people on expired visas. The undocumented or expired visa individuals are not getting state handouts at the moment. They are undocumented and so not in receipt of social welfare payments or other kinds of state benefits. They are working in untaxed unregistered employment. And in many instances are being taken advantage of by their employer.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Meanwhile our own poor , and those on the smallest wages get little or no state benefits, they wait over 3 times longer for housing etc.

Who are you taking about now. Those claiming refugee status or people illegally in the country.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

In what warped ****ed up world should criminal immigrants get priority over our own people by a government our own people put in place ?

So I take you want a fair and reasonable discussion on this.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

How can you not grasp the governments first priority is to its own populace and their needs. Why should we help others before our own.

No off on a rant. OK.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I cannot go to america on holiday, decide to stay and demand housing, I will be sent home, which is their absolute right.
There has to be a cap on the numbers we decide to accept.

Just like the irish undocumented in America you can go there and overstay your visa. And just like the undocumented here no you won't be entitled to social welfare.

Justin Credible Darts

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That's right Wibbs the elected government of Ireland is going to make decisions on how to run the state. Is that not the mandate of a Government?

I am curious what is your opinion on people who come here illegally ?

Are you suggesting that I and others who pay tax should see our money going to not only allow those people who willingly broke the law to not only stay here, but pay for their housing and handouts as well ?
Meanwhile our own poor , and those on the smallest wages get little or no state benefits, they wait over 3 times longer for housing etc.

In what warped ****ed up world should criminal immigrants get priority over our own people by a government our own people put in place ?

How can you not grasp the governments first priority is to its own populace and their needs. Why should we help others before our own.

I cannot go to america on holiday, decide to stay and demand housing, I will be sent home, which is their absolute right.

There has to be a cap on the numbers we decide to accept.

[Deleted User]

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Well, let's say a government of the day, or group of senior civil servants decided to roll back say the right to choose, or same sex marriage and influenced the government to over ride either of those constitutional amendments, would the reaction from certain quarters be so blase?

I think we all know exactly what the reaction would be.

You know civil servants can't roll back an amendment to the constitution or enact legislation. You know this right?

The Dail can't roll back a constitutional amendment either. They can enact legislation which is not unconstitutional. And the state needs the government to be able to enact legislation otherwise what is its purpose and who would enact legislation.

Swindled

bubblypop wrote: »

What about the Israelis??

Yep and the Israelis, the accepted international solution is a two state one. Not forced "multiculturalism" and colonisation by either over the other.

clytemnestra

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed, but in the usual run of things we don't as a society reward them for doing so. Our Justice Minister is going to reward nearly 20,000 people for breaking a number of our laws and over many years.

I can see that happening alright. It already did with the mass influx into the EU of a few years ago and the EU sent the wrong message by appearing to accommodate that too often. They should have nipped it in the bud like Australia, but Germany wanted more young workers. Turks Part Deux. I can also see attitudes really hardening, even among people from previous migrations who will pull up the ladder behind them. I can also see the risk of serious conflict on the back of it. It could well be seen as the invasion it actually is and hostilities could break out. Ireland is the odd man out in many ways , mainly I suspect because it's so new to us, as attitudes in Europe are already hardening, another such influx won't go nearly so well.

"the invasion it actually is" is right. I watch a variety of news sources and it was extraordinary how different outlets reported the 2015 influx. BBC had "Migrants teargassed at border" - it was somewhere in the Balkans. RT.com showed the exact same footage but they showed the crowds of men chanting "Allahu Akbar" and smashing up a border post and tearing down fences which led to the teargassing. BBC left out that bit.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

What about the Israelis??

Israel is a very complex situation to make much judgement on the matter of the thread. Now one can argue whether Israel has a right or need to exist - I would argue it does on both counts - however the plain fact is that modern Israel is a post war colony based on ethnicity, ideology, religion and history, a plantation of an existing region with existing peoples, peoples that have been systematically pushed ever out into smaller and smaller enclaves within that state. It's certainly no poster child for multiculturalism that's for sure. If anything it's an extreme example of why and how it won't and can't work when differences are large enough.

Wibbs

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Well, let's say a government of the day, or group of senior civil servants decided to roll back say the right to choose, or same sex marriage and influenced the government to over ride either of those constitutional amendments, would the reaction from certain quarters be so blase?

I think we all know exactly what the reaction would be.

Indeed and both those passed by much lower margins.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That's right Wibbs the elected government of Ireland is going to make decisions on how to run the state. Is that not the mandate of a Government?

It's as if you're physically allergic to any points being made: Our Justice Minister is going to reward nearly 20,000 people for breaking a number of our laws and over many years.

[Deleted User]

clytemnestra wrote: »

Go and tell that to the native Americans, then. Or the Palestinians.

What about the Israelis??

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed, but in the usual run of things we don't as a society reward them for doing so. Our Justice Minister is going to reward nearly 20,000 people for breaking a number of our laws and over many years.

That's right Wibbs the elected government of Ireland is going to make decisions on how to run the state. Is that not the mandate of a Government?

[Deleted User]

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Well, let's say a government of the day, or group of senior civil servants decided to roll back say the right to choose, or same sex marriage and influenced the government to over ride either of those constitutional amendments, would the reaction from certain quarters be so blase?

I think we all know exactly what the reaction would be.

Prior to GFA amendment that caused the need for the 27th Amendment. Nationality was a legislative matter. It was the GFA amendment which was the problem and it was compounded by being enacted in the constitution.

Had the GFA amendment not enshrined nationality in the constitution in the way it did but rather contained it in legislation then the government of the day could have acted much quicker to resolve the unforeseen issues that came about through normal emergency legislation.

The government and People of Ireland by way of the 27th amendment restored that legislative control over nationality and citizenship to the Dail.

Oh Wibbs no Civil Servant has the power to override enacted legislation on a whim. That would be stupid!

LostinBlanch

Wibbs wrote: »

Why? At least with the constitution any changes must be sought with the direct democratic will of the people, not at the whim of civil servants or incumbent politicians. Would you choose to bring it back in now? Do you support the Labour party's drive to do so? Again I ask; did you vote for the change knowing it would reduce the number of immigrants and non EU residents getting automatic citizenship? Yes or no.

Well, let's say a government of the day, or group of senior civil servants decided to roll back say the right to choose, or same sex marriage and influenced the government to over ride either of those constitutional amendments, would the reaction from certain quarters be so blase?

I think we all know exactly what the reaction would be.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

It is controlled. As best it can be. You are allowed entry to the state by various systems.
We cannot control people's behaviour however, people can and do break rules and laws all the time.

Indeed, but in the usual run of things we don't as a society reward them for doing so. Our Justice Minister is going to reward nearly 20,000 people for breaking a number of our laws and over many years.

Tony EH wrote: »

Exactly.

If climate change is going to hit like some people say it will, Europe better get ready for much, MUCH, more immigration.

There'll be areas of the world that will become simply uninhabitable and people will migrate.

I can see that happening alright. It already did with the mass influx into the EU of a few years ago and the EU sent the wrong message by appearing to accommodate that too often. They should have nipped it in the bud like Australia, but Germany wanted more young workers. Turks Part Deux. I can also see attitudes really hardening, even among people from previous migrations who will pull up the ladder behind them. I can also see the risk of serious conflict on the back of it. It could well be seen as the invasion it actually is and hostilities could break out. Ireland is the odd man out in many ways , mainly I suspect because it's so new to us, as attitudes in Europe are already hardening, another such influx won't go nearly so well.

clytemnestra

bubblypop wrote: »

Yep, that's correct. Just because your ancestors lived somewhere, it doesn't give you automatic rights over something.
I'm not sure why anyone would think they have rights to any area, except for any property they own themselves.

No one can chose their neighbours.

Go and tell that to the native Americans, then. Or the Palestinians.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

Just backing me up there!
No choice in your neighbours, don't like it? Move.
Simple.

Another avoiding the points raised. People are attached to their patch and often over generations and even new people into an area will seek to create their own patch. If that includes moving away from those less like them towards those more like them then that's what they'll do. IE People can have a deep connection to their area, their land, their nation and will go out of their way to follow that.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What are you trying to avoid exactly?

I was merely saying that if someone wants to avoid the worst aspects of multiculturalism and the issues they can bring that we've seen in other nations running this social experiment then move away from urban areas.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So when you say multiculural politic you mean all political parties in Ireland, except parties like the national party.
And the overwhelming majority of the nation votes for the parties you say bought into the "politic". Doesn't that seem to give tacit approval by the people for this policy?

Not necessarily. It also means there is little choice in our political system. We have two main parties that are almost identical and a flip of the coin has them in power turnabout, with occasional oft ill fitting minority parties in coalition. Sinn Fein are seen as an alternative but I guarantee if they ever get into power it'll be FG/FF business as usual with some local SF colour. Well they're a party that always cut their cloth to the measure of the times. To take another example there are no parties who question the Traveller problems in our society, yet when one presidential candidate brought it up and in a decidedly hamfisted way, in a matter of a few weeks he went from "who dat" last to coming second in that race. On the back of an otherwise near throwaway negative comment towards Travellers.

Ireland was a basket case economy in the 1970's. Life then in Ireland to now is not the same at all. But you probably don't believe that though right because humans can never change always them same generation after generation. There is no progression!

Oh there can be progression, but it's almost always around a basic mean and examples of such changes can be found in other cultures and throughout history and it almost never butts up too hard against human nature.

Oh no NGO's were opposed. So what!

I dunno why the NGO remark in particular got you revved up, though we have far too many of them sucking on the public teat in this country.

Yes I voted to remove the automatic right as enshrined in the constitution by the GFA amendment. It was a terrible place for it to be placed. It is much better if the Government of the day can legislate should it need to and not be bound by the constitution.

Why? At least with the constitution any changes must be sought with the direct democratic will of the people, not at the whim of civil servants or incumbent politicians. Would you choose to bring it back in now? Do you support the Labour party's drive to do so? Again I ask; did you vote for the change knowing it would reduce the number of immigrants and non EU residents getting automatic citizenship? Yes or no.

I don't need to you to admit what you did. I know what you intended and have stated it here so you know I know.

Come down from the cross. It's a tad too obvious a ploy. You brought your personal life up when nobody asked you to. You brought it up to make a point in your argument. When that point was expanded upon and questioned you run to crying foul. More misdirection and avoidance. But then again why change the script that has served so well for almost all of the pro multiculturalism posters.

[Deleted User]

Salvation Tambourine wrote: »

I see you're back on the thread Bubblypop. You said we had controlled immigration. The above suggests it's not as controlled as we would probably want. Do you agree?

It is controlled. As best it can be. You are allowed entry to the state by various systems.
We cannot control people's behaviour however, people can and do break rules and laws all the time.

Tony EH

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I don't know why anyone even cares. Ireland will be unrecognisable in 50 years much like it was 50 years ago, and it will be a lot more multicultural than it is now. You could try starting a political party to stop this but I doubt you're going to do that, and you probably wouldn't get much votes going up against the status quo parties.
Life is short, you'll be dead in a few decades, just count yourself lucky you were born in a rich country like Ireland in a time of peace.
We ain't seen nothing yet anyway, the recent events in Ceuta are pretty scary, 1000s scrambling into the Spanish enclave. With bursting populations and people being displaced by climate change, this is going to get worse and worse. The world as we know it probably doesn't have long left, just enjoy your life if you can.

Exactly.

If climate change is going to hit like some people say it will, Europe better get ready for much, MUCH, more immigration.

There'll be areas of the world that will become simply uninhabitable and people will migrate.