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Pro 16 Discussion

Red Silurian

How do you see it playing out and how would you like to see it play out?

What we know
16 Teams
4 Irish
4 Welsh
2 Scottish
2 Italian
4 South African

Obviously the most fair situation would be 1 table of 16 teams and each team playing 15 Home and Away games but I don't think that's logical

The best option I think is an East/West or North/South conferences
That is to say

North Conference
Ulster and Connacht (The 2 northern most Irish provinces)
Edinburgh (slightly more north than Glasgow)
Scarlets + Ospreys (The 2 northern most Welsh teams)
Benetton (more north than Zebre)
Lions and Bulls (The 2 northern most South African teams)

South conference
All the rest

Dividing it equally among the countries so 8 teams per conference, home+away in each conference home or away for the rest + 2 further inter-country games

That's 24 games, 25 if you have a final

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thomond2006

There's been no third party advertisers on their Pro14 coverage for quite a while. The viewership must be tiny.

ClanofLams

Has there been any clarity on what format will be next season? Is it sticking with two conferences? Tried google search but not returning much.

[Deleted User]

ClanofLams wrote: »

Has there been any clarity on what format will be next season? Is it sticking with two conferences? Tried google search but not returning much.

18 regular season games.
2 conferences
Play everyone once and return leg interpros

That's the rumour anyway

Thrashssacre

connemara man wrote: »

18 regular season games.
2 conferences
Play everyone once and return leg interpros

That's the rumour anyway

Would really feel for Connacht in that scenario, I can see it now at the tail end of a season them battling it out with benetton or Scarlets for a champion's cup place, really would stack the odds against them.

bilston

connemara man wrote: »

18 regular season games.
2 conferences
Play everyone once and return leg interpros

That's the rumour anyway

Why do we need two conferences if the teams play each other once?

[Deleted User]

bilston wrote: »

Why do we need two conferences if the teams play each other once?

Give the Welsh and Scots more chance of a European spot

stephen_n

connemara man wrote: »

Give the Welsh and Scots more chance of a European spot

Conference positions decide play off spots. They don’t decide European places, that’s done on an overall basis isn’t it?

[Deleted User]

stephen_n wrote: »

Conference positions decide play off spots. They don’t decide European places, that’s done on an overall basis isn’t it?

This year was top 3/4 in each conference

sydthebeat

I dont think anything is fixed yet as to how the pro16 is going to work so all this is speculation.

Red Silurian

sydthebeat wrote: »

I dont think anything is fixed yet as to how the pro16 is going to work so all this is speculation.

Speculation yes, but not entirely without base... Leinster season tickets are out now and members could renew for the same price as the 2018/2019 season when there was 9 or 10 home Pro14 games and 3 home Champions cup games. So that would suggest we're having 18-20 regular season games in total.. Either we play everybody once for 15 games or 2 conferences of 8 with H+A in conference + derbies for 18 Irish/Welsh/Saffer and 16 games for Italy and Scotland

I think we can all agree it's all a bit of a mess

sydthebeat

Red Silurian wrote: »

Speculation yes, but not entirely without base... Leinster season tickets are out now and members could renew for the same price as the 2018/2019 season when there was 9 or 10 home Pro14 games and 3 home Champions cup games. So that would suggest we're having 18-20 regular season games in total.. Either we play everybody once for 15 games or 2 conferences of 8 with H+A in conference + derbies for 18 Irish/Welsh/Saffer and 16 games for Italy and Scotland

I think we can all agree it's all a bit of a mess

Yes but the allowances for European spots are completely up in the air, regardless of the number of games.

The only things we know for certain is that the bokke won't be in next seasons champions cup.... Whereas they may be in the challenge Cup.

By September we'll have a clear picture

awec

Playing every team once makes no sense if they keep conferences. There is no "fair" format available, as there are too many teams and not enough weeks, so there will be a compromise in integrity somewhere.

I would prefer home and away against your conference = 14 games. Then home and away against interpros in other conference = 4 games.

Red Silurian

awec wrote: »

Playing every team once makes no sense if they keep conferences. There is no "fair" format available, as there are too many teams and not enough weeks, so there will be a compromise in integrity somewhere.

I would prefer home and away against your conference = 14 games. Then home and away against interpros in other conference = 4 games.

Assuming you are dividing the conferences up equally between the countries (2 Irish/Welsh/Saffer and 1 Italian/Scot) how would you address the fact that the Scots and Italians will end up playing themselves 4 times?

sydthebeat

looking at those numbers you really have to feel sorry for the french Top 14 teams who play 26 regular season games...

and if you come through the semi final qualifiers to reach the final.. youve to play 29 games in total !

sydthebeat

Red Silurian wrote: »

Assuming you are dividing the conferences up equally between the countries (2 Irish/Welsh/Saffer and 1 Italian/Scot) how would you address the fact that the Scots and Italians will end up playing themselves 4 times?

a scot wont play a scot 4 times though

scottish team in conference A will play 'A' Italian team twice and 'B' italian team twice, and they will play 'B' scotland team twice

right at this moment its hard to argue any one of those is better than the other.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

looking at those numbers you really have to feel sorry for the french Top 14 teams who play 26 regular season games...

and if you come through the semi final qualifiers to reach the final.. youve to play 29 games in total !

It's easier for the French teams to manage as the French internationals are spread out more thinly across their squads.

Red Silurian

sydthebeat wrote: »

a scot wont play a scot 4 times though

scottish team in conference A will play 'A' Italian team twice and 'B' italian team twice, and they will play 'B' scotland team twice

right at this moment its hard to argue any one of those is better than the other.

So Edinburgh and Glasgow would play home and away against Benneton and Zebre every year while an Irish team will only play one scottish and one Italian... There's a clear difference in difficulty level there which makes it seem very unfair

Red Silurian

sydthebeat wrote: »

looking at those numbers you really have to feel sorry for the french Top 14 teams who play 26 regular season games...

and if you come through the semi final qualifiers to reach the final.. youve to play 29 games in total !

The 14 french teams in that league contribute mainly to the french national team while the 12 from last years Pro14 contributed to 4 National teams

Plus the French pay their players properly

Cookiemunster

Red Silurian wrote: »

So Edinburgh and Glasgow would play home and away against Benneton and Zebre every year while an Irish team will only play one scottish and one Italian... There's a clear difference in difficulty level there which makes it seem very unfair

No matter what way you works it, it'll be unfair on someone. As it was the Irish teams played each other home and away and took points off each other, while generally, pre Covid, Glasgow beat Edinburgh three times and Cheetahs trashed Kings three times, giving both an advantage in the race for the play offs.

Red Silurian

Cookiemunster wrote: »

No matter what way you works it, it'll be unfair on someone. As it was the Irish teams played each other home and away and took points off each other, while generally, pre Covid, Glasgow beat Edinburgh three times and Cheetahs trashed Kings three times, giving both an advantage in the race for the play offs.

The Pro14 system had a fairness element to it in that everybody played Irish teams 6 times, including the Irish and everybody played 3 games against Italian opposition, including the Italians and that played true for every club on the basis of the clubs nationality

The most fair way is 15 home and 15 away games... Fair but logistically impossible of course

The next most fair way in my books is a main competition with 15 games, either home or away, with 6 teams in the playoffs and 5 separate tournaments, one for each nation, to accommodate the return derbies.

Another option is 2 tables with promotion and relegation between them which would cut out all the games that nobody is really interested in

There are many options more fair than giving one team 6 walkovers

Cookiemunster

Red Silurian wrote: »

The most fair way is 15 home and 15 away games... Fair but logistically impossible of course

The next most fair way in my books is a main competition with 15 games, either home or away, with 6 teams in the playoffs and 5 separate tournaments, one for each nation, to accommodate the return derbies.

Another option is 2 tables with promotion and relegation between them which would cut out all the games that nobody is really interested in

There are many options more fair than giving one team 6 walkovers

Have you ever previously watched the Pro12/14/Magners/Celtic league? There have always been mismatches. Yet the Irish teams are still the best teams in the league despite the disadvantage of not getting to play Zebre three times each season.

This will continue to be the case even if Glasgow and Edinburgh get two games each against the Italians, versus everyone else getting one (I've no idea where you're getting 6 walkovers).

Red Silurian

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Have you ever previously watched the Pro12/14/Magners/Celtic league? There have always been mismatches. Yet the Irish teams are still the best teams in the league despite the disadvantage of not getting to play Zebre three times each season.

This will continue to be the case even if Glasgow and Edinburgh get two games each against the Italians, versus everyone else getting one (I've no idea where you're getting 6 walkovers).

Yeah but how long will the Leinster dominance last? There will come a time when the Scottish will benefit from only having 2 teams in the competition because they only have to worry about their Scottish opposition, walk over them and the 2 Italians should get run over just as easily

6 Walkovers would be (the old) Glasgow facing Edinburgh, Benetton and Zebre on a Home and Away basis... You could almost see Edinburgh doing it these days to Glasgow and the Italians

sydthebeat

Red Silurian wrote: »

So Edinburgh and Glasgow would play home and away against Benneton and Zebre every year while an Irish team will only play one scottish and one Italian... There's a clear difference in difficulty level there which makes it seem very unfair

that's why i said that, currently, there isn't that much difference between Edinburg, Benetton, zebre and Glasgow. Its likely they will all take points off each other

it would be a different situation if one of those teams was so dominant that every game was a guaranteed 5 pointer, but that's not the case. The Italians aren't the whipping boys they used to be 6 years ago, and Glasgow isn't the team it was 5 years ago.

Red Silurian

sydthebeat wrote: »

that's why i said that, currently, there isn't that much difference between Edinburg, Benetton, zebre and Glasgow. Its likely they will all take points off each other

it would be a different situation if one of those teams was so dominant that every game was a guaranteed 5 pointer, but that's not the case. The Italians aren't the whipping boys they used to be 6 years ago, and Glasgow isn't the team it was 5 years ago.

That is true, I'd just think that in order for a league tournament to be considered fair every team should play the other teams an equal number of times

thomond2006

Red Silurian wrote: »

That is true, I'd just think that in order for a league tournament to be considered fair every team should play the other teams an equal number of times

This just isn't possible, right now.

Red Silurian

thomond2006 wrote: »

This just isn't possible, right now.

I have 2 logical soluions above

The first is 2 tournaments, the main one and a country specific one

Main: 15 home or away games with playoffs (Pro16)
Country specific: 3 further games with points carried over from main tournament (let's call it the Cú Chulainn cup for Ireland) and a final if we want

The second solution is a 2 tier tournament with Promotion/Relegation

Lost Ormond

Red Silurian wrote: »

I have 2 logical soluions above

The first is 2 tournaments, the main one and a country specific one

Main: 15 home or away games with playoffs (Pro16)
Country specific: 3 further games with points carried over from main tournament (let's call it the Cú Chulainn cup for Ireland) and a final if we want

The second solution is a 2 tier tournament with Promotion/Relegation

Neither of those will get any interest from the unions for a variety of reasons and a lot of them will be financial.
Moving to a 2 tier tournament isnt going to be good for anyone in a 4 country league. Its ok in a one country league like england, france but with no away fans at most games as it is moving to 2 divisions doesnt make any sense financially or from a rugby perspective for the sides that will be in 2nd division most/all of the time
Just having 15 home or away games isnt going to happen even if you have the interpros separate with its own final. You can mix the interpros within the main competition with some being full or close to full strength sides while other games being sides more of the future best players and you will still attract crowds. it can be confusing enough with the structure as it is but keeping interpros separate would be worse IMO.

AbusesToilets

A straight home or away plus playoffs is the best format imo. Too much emphasis is put on interpros, when they're typically garbage games.

Digifriendly

All this discussion leads me to think that the league is ultimately doomed. It has had some many incarnations over the years and is still well behind the English and French equivalents. Maybe a merger into a British Isles League with Italians and S. Africans on board is the ultimate solution.

sydthebeat

The answer is to let the Welsh float away and do their chosen thing with England.

That's leaves a decent 12 team league where it alls home and away and playoffs