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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

marno21

As the other thread is reaching its limit of 10,000 posts, and in light of the announcement of the preferred route, this is the new thread for discussing the Metrolink scheme.

Old thread here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055849587

This is for discussing the current active plan for a Metro between Swords and Charlemont. Only. Discussion of the planned Metro South connection to the Green Line will be in this thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057972047

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MJohnston

Fugazifan wrote: »

Or something ?

The “or something” refers to the relocation services part. The years rent was definitely offered.

VonLuck

yascaoimhin wrote: »

New Images of Mater Metrolink station

https://twitter.com/CiaranLyng/status/1386365708708241410

Excuse my ignorance but what is a "DFB Lift"? Dublin Fire Brigade?

Peregrine

VonLuck wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but what is a "DFB Lift"? Dublin Fire Brigade?

Yes. Emergency access.

VonLuck

Peregrine wrote: »

Yes. Emergency access.

Figured. Surprised the second lift can't be used by the public. Seems like a big investment for something that will (hopefully) go unused.

yascaoimhin

Fugazifan wrote: »

It seems clear that they have decided it, however, This is what TII informed the Office of the Information Commissioner:

"TII says that no final decision on the Metrolink route has been made and deliberations remain ongoing, including in relation to the proposed station at Tara Street"

https://www.oic.ie/decisions/mr-x-and-transport-infras-2/index.xml

So I don't know ??

The number of entrances is based on the amount of people using the stations.
O'Connell Street is the heart of the city, Tara will interchange with DART and Charlont will be the terminus and interchnage with Luas Green, they will undoubtedly be the busiest stations and so have two entrances.

When TII say "The route is not finalised", they mean the final design is not complete to such a point that it's being presented for final approval.

But Tara Street is going to be one of the stations.

cgcsb

I think the 2 entrance stations is only referring to the stations that are in deep bore tunnel. For cut and cover or surface level stations cost isn't much if a constraint in providing multiple accesses. I'm surprised the airport isn't included in the list.

yascaoimhin

cgcsb wrote: »

I think the 2 entrance stations is only referring to the stations that are in deep bore tunnel. For cut and cover or surface level stations cost isn't much if a constraint in providing multiple accesses. I'm surprised the airport isn't included in the list.

The design of the station box means that the BOH materials are where the second entrance concourse would go.

The Airport stops second entrance would be pointed towards the road and would get no traffic.

VeryOwl

cgcsb wrote: »

I think the 2 entrance stations is only referring to the stations that are in deep bore tunnel. For cut and cover or surface level stations cost isn't much if a constraint in providing multiple accesses. I'm surprised the airport isn't included in the list.

Short-sighted to only have one entrance to the airport station - hopefully that will be revised in the final plan. Would be nice if the bus station was tidied up as well if this is ever built.

donvito99

VeryOwl wrote: »

Short-sighted to only have one entrance to the airport station - hopefully that will be revised in the final plan. Would be nice if the bus station was tidied up as well if this is ever built.

Not sure how you would improve the existing bus set down area, other than sticking a big roof over it and heating the place.

But yes I imagine there will be considerable demand for commuters to the Hangar 6 area, so for the station should really be as permeable as possible.

Sam Russell

donvito99 wrote: »

Not sure how you would improve the existing bus set down area, other than sticking a big roof over it and heating the place.

But yes I imagine there will be considerable demand for commuters to the Hangar 6 area, so for the station should really be as permeable as possible.

The DAA should turn that into a Bus Station with proper bus locations with a decent arrival and departure notice board - a bit like they do with the planes not so far apart from there. Make it simple to identify the bus you need and when it will arrive and depart. I cannot think why they have not done that - it is not as if they do not now how.

yascaoimhin

Sam Russell wrote: »

The DAA should turn that into a Bus Station with proper bus locations with a decent arrival and departure notice board - a bit like they do with the planes not so far apart from there. Make it simple to identify the bus you need and when it will arrive and depart. I cannot think why they have not done that - it is not as if they do not now how.

Great idea.

Having all the different operators have their own branding and ticket machines and signage and RTPI makes it a confusing mess.

Sam Russell

yascaoimhin wrote: »

Great idea.

Having all the different operators have their own branding and ticket machines and signage and RTPI makes it a confusing mess.

The buses are painted different colours as well as part of their branding. What des that matter - they have timetables, and published routes and destinations, a bit like the planes. DAA appear able to handle the planes so why not the buses?

Sam Russell wrote: »

The buses are painted different colours as well as part of their branding. What des that matter - they have timetables, and published routes and destinations, a bit like the planes. DAA appear able to handle the planes so why not the buses?

They would rather you use their car parks, a lot more money in that for them.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

They would rather you use their car parks, a lot more money in that for them.

That is true, and should be tackled by Government.

MyLove4Satan

Back in the Aer Rinta days the management were obsessed with getting as many cars as possible into the airport. In the late 90s there was even plans to acquire land and build vast car parking areas like you see in cities like Atlanta and Houston. They even planned a light rail system to connect all the car parks together. That culture still remains somewhat within the DAA.

The big car park opposite Terminal One could be demolished and made into the new bus station. Having said that, the bus situation at the airport now is a spectacular improvement on what was there even 15 years ago.

Sam Russell

As part of the Metrolink project (or at least allied to it) the Metrolink station at the airport should be co-located with a bus station where all buses go, including the car park ones. It could even have its own tunnel access.

It could also include all the taxis.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

They would rather you use their car parks, a lot more money in that for them.

Sadly this is indeed the case. I don't want to stray too far off topic, but the poor nature PSO network at the Airport and the lack of proper waiting facilities have long been a bugbear of mine.

Historically one of the reasons that Dublin Bus never expanded the PSO network at the airport beyond the 16, 41 and 102 was due to having to pay the DAA for the right to serve the airport for each route, despite them being PSO!

That in itself, has to be one of the most ludicrous situations as it flies in the face of public transport policy which is to encourage employees and every one else to use PT. The DAA should have been forced to subsidise a similar network to that around Heathrow which results in much greater public transport usage by the airport staff there.

We should long before BusConnects have had a hub and spoke network from the airport. As (in pre-Covid times) one of North Dublin's biggest employment locations, the lack of a proper PSO network with services to facilitate airport staff early start/late night finishes is staggering.

While BusConnects has some good additions, there are still some gaps. It isn't exactly ambitious in terms of services to/from the airport and reduces the service levels linking the Airport and the city directly via the Swords Road.

Pros:
Route N8 is a new route operating every 30 mins linking to Blanchardstown and Malahide Road (Clare Hall) and Clongriffin DART.

Route L83 linking to Swords, Donabate and Portrane every 30 mins (new direct connection)

Route L85 linking to Swords, Lusk, Rush, Skerries and Balbriggan every 30 mins (replaces 33a and doubles existing 33a service level at Airport)

Route L81 retains existing link to River Valley, Swords, Malahide, Portmarnock, Baldoyle and Sutton (every 20-30 mins - increased frequency in weekday daytime) (replaces 102)

Route A2 retains existing route 16 link along Swords Road to city centre and south through Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Ballinteer to Dundrum at the same service level as the current route 16. Note it bypasses Beaumont.

Route 19 is a new hourly service via Ballymun, Glasnevin and Drumcondra to Parnell Square once an hour - I do think that prior to Metrolink arriving, this could do with being at least every 30 mins, and also extending south of the river in the city centre.

Route 24 is a new service linking to Charlestown, Finglas East, Glasnevin and Phibsoro before serving the city centre every 20 minutes - a welcome addition.

Cons:
Removal of three buses per hour to/from the airport along the Swords Road linking to/from the city centre by rerouting the 41 replacement (A4) directly along the Swords Road not serving the airport. That will test capacity I think!

Not extending the D4 to the Airport at planned frequency of every 30 mins misses out offering a direct connection to Beaumont, Artane, the lower Malahide Road and Fairview. I think that's a mistake.

As to the "bus station" at the Airport, again the DAA could a learn a lot from Heathrow Central Bus Station where there is a proper heated large waiting room, with departure boards, information desk and retail units. The lack of proper waiting facilities in Dublin Airport is woeful.

This is what should be provided:

https://www.milesfaster.co.uk/information/heathrow-airport/heathrow-central-bus-coach-station.htm

The DAA need to stop viewing public transport as a revenue stream, but rather need to be encouraging and subsidising it.

MJohnston

On this note — do DAA own the commercial lands at the airport, Airport Central or whatever it's called? I think they do, and that might finally provide them with the (non-governmental) impetus to allow more public transport access to the airport.

jumpinsheep

cgcsb wrote: »

If TII could avoid spending money on all that CPOing they would. What do you think their motive is?

*Disclaimer: long post but worth it ! - TL;DR: the proposed and final location of Metrolink Tara station was not only chosen because being the closest to the existing DART station, but also to redevelop the area, which would otherwise been very difficult to acquire without CPO*

Easy to forget after more than 2 years the published document, containing details of the oversite development opportunities for Tara: see the screenshot attached or the page from the relevant document > here < - 6th June 2018.

(the "old" Metrolink website (https://archive.metrolink.ie/) where the above document was available, only shows a Metrolink logo, not sure why they decided to remove those document being them already public (see screenshot)).

In Nov 2018, Apollo House and other buildings in the area were sold (Independent.ie article reference); I guess that those were government's property, thus, being the Metrolink project already been published earlier that year (Mar 2018), one can argue that the government was already set to CPO the necessary buildings no matter what, to follow the initial proposed location of the Metrolink Tara station as by selling that area, it would be even more difficult that a proposals of moving the station there had any chance to be successful, as on top there was already an approved building project too (which didn't mention anything about a potential underground Metrolink station).
The excavation there it's quite big and deep (enough for both a metro station and also a swimming pool if you ask me, given someone made a hole already!), I've attached a couple of screenshot from Google Earth, probably early 2020 as the building the corner opposite The Irish Times was demolished around Jul - Oct 2020 , now the hole is even deeper and wider.

Considering that building height restrictions are removed (Independent.ie article reference - Dec 2018), it would be a "sore eye" and a waste of airspace (which is now very valuable with the regulations change and considering its prime location) having one or two old building there with only 6 floors, when right next to them there will be new ones with 22 or more floors (Johnny Ronan's hotel-office in the corner next to the existing Tara Dart station and the new buildings replacing Hawkins/Apollo House. Both those projects have been approved by ABP).

By chance, while constructions are proceeding at pace everywhere in Dublin, the new hotel-office of Johnny Ronan has yet to start construction, and same goes for area next to the fire brigade where the previous building is already demolished and a new office project is ready to go (see it here).
For both, as it is visible from the DCC planning website, a letter from TII for each, says there wouldn't be an impact despite the underground Metro; while there are reasons to hold back from starting to build, not sure those are worth the wait? Maybe bigger building ideas are for the area?

One could then think that being the area affected by CPO very big, with possibility to develop, this is the perfect opportunity to contribute in creating a new city centre area for Dublin - as also mentioned in this article (link): Marlet's plans for the two sites will be seen as being integral to the creation of a new 'midtown' area in Dublin city centre.

The cost of the CPO could be offset in the long term by selling or more likely, renting the area for developers to build, and some will surely profit from whatever new will be built there as for sure the airspace won't be wasted.
It's a prime location, not a chance it'll be just a little green area; but nobody seems to know what will be built there as of yet, probably (?) neither those in charge of Metrolink.

Let's say that some apartments will be built to replace College Gate and the affected DCC townhouses: do you think they'll be made available to the market? I seriously doubt that, as it's more lucrative "built to rent" and all the new development in the area, are as such.

Thus those living in College Gate, will indeed get compensated but if there was any new apartment built on the same spot, it won't probably be offered to them (as by when it'll be known what will be built, those in College Gate will be long gone).

Spending is getting tight for some departments (https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40274552.html) but transport seems unaffected.

CatInABox

Fugazifan wrote: »

Hi CatInABox,

I'm specifically referring to Tara Street.

Regarding the OIC's finding on FOI request, I suppose it depends on what level of detail you require and the audience it is intended for, some higher level details that could be independently verified would be reasonable to ask? See link:

https://www.oic.ie/decisions/mr-x-and-transport-infras-2/index.xml

Thanks

Finally getting around to responding, sorry for the delay in bring this back up, but I'm still not understanding.

Appendix M is entirely devoted to Tara Street, and as I mentioned, is quite detailed.

What high level details would you like? What part of appendix M can't be independently verified?

CatInABox

jumpinsheep wrote: »

(https://archive.metrolink.ie/) where the above document was available, only shows a Metrolink logo, not sure why they decided to remove those document being them already public

I asked them about this, and they're working on it.

Seems that you can get access here: pc1.metrolink.ie

I've no inside knowledge, but I've always said that it is pretty mad that anyone wants to retain a mere 6 storey apartment building (along with laughable 3 storey houses), right in the heart of the city, over what will become the busiest transport hubs in the country.

What a massive waste of prime real estate. Even if the Metro station wasn't built exactly there, but close by instead, you'd still want to knock these and replace them with much larger buildings, at least 20 storeys to take advantage of the opportunity.

CPOing buildings and replacing them with much larger buildings is very common all over Europe and the world. It is how cities grow and expand.

In Tokyo, a third of the rail transport companies revenue comes from real estate and another fifth from retail. They basically buy up land, build metro stations and then build massive apartment and retail buildings directly above the station, which often exit straight into those retail centers.

It is kind of like how airports work, you have to pass through all that retail and duty free to get to the aircraft. The retail helps pay for the airport infrastructure, which allows for cheap fares.

It is a highly successful model and part of the reason Tokyo has such great public transport and I'd love to see the same replicated here.

MyLove4Satan

My own uncle who never takes public transport. Tried to put an injunction in to stop the metro/DART station at Glasnevin only because the Brian Boru House was being demolished. A pub he didn't even go in to! What really stuck me was he became kind of possessed by a NIMBY Demon which made any kind of explaining to him about the need for the station impossible. Serial Objection is almost like a mass hysteria in Ireland and needs to be stopped.

We are in the middle of an epidemic of the “serial objector” virus; the system is on the verge of collapse, with serious – almost unquantifiable – long-term consequences for the future economic health of the nation.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/david-mcwilliams-serial-objectors-are-colonising-future-through-nimbyism-1.4551548?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fdavid-mcwilliams-serial-objecting-is-antisocial-behaviour-1.4551548%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR3lA8tbGYt9zcvHdas1QdbrqtfL2ySZcvYkpxhcYRCKuSGuMVZdKcaHIx0

cgcsb

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

My own uncle who never takes public transport. Tried to put an injunction in to stop the metro/DART station at Glasnevin only because the Brian Boru House was being demolished. A pub he didn't even go in to! What really stuck me was he became kind of possessed by a NIMBY Demon which made any kind of explaining to him about the need for the station impossible. Serial Objection is almost like a mass hysteria in Ireland and needs to be stopped.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/david-mcwilliams-serial-objectors-are-colonising-future-through-nimbyism-1.4551548?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fdavid-mcwilliams-serial-objecting-is-antisocial-behaviour-1.4551548%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR3lA8tbGYt9zcvHdas1QdbrqtfL2ySZcvYkpxhcYRCKuSGuMVZdKcaHIx0

That's nothing. Actual Dublin City councillors blocked the redevelopment of a derelict block between Charlemont and Camden St because a derelict property known as the 'manhattan cafe' in the 1980s but derelict for 3 decades used to be there and sure we all loved that place.

Thats the level we're at. Pure irrational 'when-i-was-a-lad' rambling nonsense.

1huge1

I'm sure I'm not the only one but I have received pre typed objection letters from Councillors (across the left-right spectrum) and all I had to do was sign it.

This was more related to housing developments but the point still stands, absolutely infuriating as I'm stuck in a rental trap at the moment with little hope of being able to buy a house.

BonnieSituation

cgcsb wrote: »

That's nothing. Actual Dublin City councillors blocked the redevelopment of a derelict block between Charlemont and Camden St because a derelict property known as the 'manhattan cafe' in the 1980s but derelict for 3 decades used to be there and sure we all loved that place.

Thats the level we're at. Pure irrational 'when-i-was-a-lad' rambling nonsense.

Point of order, the Manhattan only shut up shop in the mid-noughties. And it was indeed a favourite late-night haunt of mine. Far superior to the Gig's Place.

JPup

cgcsb wrote: »

That's nothing. Actual Dublin City councillors blocked the redevelopment of a derelict block between Charlemont and Camden St because a derelict property known as the 'manhattan cafe' in the 1980s but derelict for 3 decades used to be there and sure we all loved that place.

Thats the level we're at. Pure irrational 'when-i-was-a-lad' rambling nonsense.

I don’t think it was irrational. The project that has planning permission now on that site is to develop a large (ugly in my opinion) office block. All the old properties that catered for a variety of retail uses, including the Manhattan from way back when, are to be demolished on both Harcourt Road and South Richmond Street. The streetscape that will emerge on completion from Kelly’s corner down to the luas at Harcourt will be clearly worse than what was there before. It’s going to look like an out of town business park. The (also ugly) building on the other side of Harcourt Road already has a single retail unit for the entire length of the street.

Don’t get me wrong in that I’m not anti development and its good to see density improving in that location. But the ground floor level as experienced by pedestrians and the general public passing by is clearly getting worse. It would have been better to retain some of the old shop fronts along the street and build the modern offices up around them. Or at a minimum create an equal number of new retail units in a more modern style.

Murph85

Sam Russell wrote: »

As part of the Metrolink project (or at least allied to it) the Metrolink station at the airport should be co-located with a bus station where all buses go, including the car park ones. It could even have its own tunnel access.

It could also include all the taxis.

Why dont they build a proper bus station at surface level, metro under it and hotel or parking above it ?

Sam Russell

Murph85 wrote: »

Why dont they build a proper bus station at surface level, metro under it and hotel or parking above it ?

Ask the DAA.

Murph85 wrote: »

Why dont they build a proper bus station at surface level, metro under it and hotel or parking above it ?

I can see that happening in the long term. Once the station is in place, there shouldn't be any issues building over it in future.

Probably doesn't make much sense to plan for that until after the station is in place, much like there isn't official plans for what will happen above the Tara St station once built, though we all know something will end up going there.

In fairness to the DAA, they have bigger issues to worry about at the moment with massive loss of money due to Covid.