19th November 2008 enquiry

loftypheasant wrote: »

Hello lads. I've been tuning in for years but haven't posted yet so be gentle with me! Just wondering if anyone who got a centrefire pistol licensed after the infamous cut-off date managed to retain their licence and firearm. Any legal challenges or successes/failures? I'm one of the poor eejits who got caught out. When my renewal was refused I continued shooting with club guns for a couple of years and then lost heart and packed it in. Money was tight at the time so legal recourse wasn't an option. I often get the hankering to go back target pistol shooting. I'm a game and vermin shooter with donkey's years but I've been a bit of a fair weather fudd regarding the other shooting sports so apologies for that in advance. There is great credit due to the fellas on here for fighting the good fight and keeping shooting sports alive in the face of adversity.

If you held a license for one and know where that specific firearm is you might have a case. Then again, you're almost definitely going to have to go to court which adds costs you might never recoup even after winning. Grizzly45 is the man to talk to if you're thinking about taking that path.

loftypheasant wrote: »

Hello lads. I've been tuning in for years but haven't posted yet so be gentle with me! Just wondering if anyone who got a centrefire pistol licensed after the infamous cut-off date managed to retain their licence and firearm. Any legal challenges or successes/failures? I'm one of the poor eejits who got caught out. When my renewal was refused I continued shooting with club guns for a couple of years and then lost heart and packed it in. Money was tight at the time so legal recourse wasn't an option. I often get the hankering to go back target pistol shooting. I'm a game and vermin shooter with donkey's years but I've been a bit of a fair weather fudd regarding the other shooting sports so apologies for that in advance. There is great credit due to the fellas on here for fighting the good fight and keeping shooting sports alive in the face of adversity.

I was in the same boat as yourself, in that i lost my job when the crash came, hadn't a pot to pee in and going to court to get a copper to do his job wasn't an option. I still have my rimfire pistols and make do with them. I'll never forgive FF for their carry on, wrecking the economy and then using the murder of an innocent man by gangsters to take our sport off us.

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

If you held a license for one and know where that specific firearm is you might have a case. Then again, you're almost definitely going to have to go to court which adds costs you might never recoup even after winning. Grizzly45 is the man to talk to if you're thinking about taking that path.

Really ? I thought the rules were changed that if you won, the costs came out of that districts garda budget. If there is no risk of loss to the gardai, then they could refuse everything and there would be no comeback ?

tudderone wrote: »

Really ? I thought the rules were changed that if you won, the costs came out of that districts garda budget. If there is no risk of loss to the gardai, then they could refuse everything and there would be no comeback ?

In theory yeah, but Grizz was saying it took him a long time to get his costs awarded back to him. Now that precedent has been set, I’d say you’d get your legal fees if you won.

Scalachi

I do know of at least one centrefire pistol licensed after November 2008 that is still licensed today.

We might argue that its an illegal license in that it was issued after November .. but...

tudderone wrote: »

Really ? I thought the rules were changed that if you won, the costs came out of that districts garda budget. If there is no risk of loss to the gardai, then they could refuse everything and there would be no comeback ?

At the judges discretion and as how well your legal counsel argues the case.
But if you have been dragged backwards and forwards thru the legal thorn patch with the case and deferments etc. Then methinks a judge will award costs, after all, you are paying thousands and all the state has to do is pitch up for the case and take a day out of the office... In my 2nd case in June 2014 the judge reserved his decision on costs. As that was THE 1st case in the state where costs as discussed under the then just reformed dist court act,so he was possibly on contestable legal ground?

{Just to update the OP,and if he wants to research the archives of 2012 onwards on boards here are full of the fuller story]

That was the state's attitude until the district court act was implemented and the costs awarded against the state were put in by Alan Shatter, and they suffered a complete wipeout in 8 cases in the Limerick DC. Costing an est 48k by the local CS.6 weeks after that they tried the great "grab any gun "legislation in 2014.
Which dug them deeper into a hole and led to the Dail public enquiry the following year. Where some members here of boards acquitted and represented the shooting community very admirably.[Looking at you Sparks and Gunhappy]
End result was Francis Fitzgerald had to pull some very hot chestnuts out of the fire for AGS and promised all sorts of reforms that still haven't come to fruition.So end result is; We have held our ground here in Ireland and discovered we can punch above our weight class, and actually buck the European Union trend of restricting or banning certain types of firearms. WHEN we arent fighting each other that is...Referring to the Sports Colation debacle later on...Another story.:rolleyes:

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

In theory yeah, but Grizz was saying it took him a long time to get his costs awarded back to him. Now that precedent has been set, I’d say you’d get your legal fees if you won.

Just standing on the shoulders of giants me... There are lads who went much further into the HC to start this ball rolling,and were gambling for higher stakes...They deserve a lot more credit too.

kellbag91

So is that to say there are lads taking this matter to court at the moment. Is there any centeralised movement to start the ball rolling on getting centerfires back.

kellbag91 wrote: »

So is that to say there are lads taking this matter to court at the moment. Is there any centeralised movement to start the ball rolling on getting centerfires back.

I reckon its a dead duck. If you are only shooting target and not practical pistol, then a .22 is good enough anyway. We're still miles ahead of where we were before the Brophy case brought pistols back.

kellbag91 wrote: »

So is that to say there are lads taking this matter to court at the moment. Is there any centeralised movement to start the ball rolling on getting centerfires back.

Unfortunately not. Centrefire pistols were merely a scapegoat of the government at the time and there was no legitimate reasons why they should have been banned, so there's no point in trying to talk sense to the Minister of Justice. She's more concerned with implementing diversity quotas and hate speech legislation, both are illegal.

kellbag91 wrote: »

So is that to say there are lads taking this matter to court at the moment. Is there any centralised movement to start the ball rolling on getting centerfires back.

The thing is;It could be reversed by ministerial order no problem. However, getting a politician that would be favourable into that position is about as likely as winning the euro millions 150 million jackpot 3 times in a row,..
The oddest chance would actually be if the North ever came back into the 32 counties.As there are more guns[ legal and illegal] up there than in the 26 counties, with a stronger shooting tradition and following than down here.

Court cases on this these days and they have dropped off dramatically,is usually some old school Chief or Super being an awkward ol' b....lix, throwing his weight about something like a silencer,or the odd one trying the "Idontlikedelookodatnow" or some sort of semi-auto rifle or the like.

They are in a pincer as well..If they refuse and go to court, they kind of win as a DC judge has become a default persona designata and orders them to grant the license. Which they then have an excuse if something goes wrong to say "The judge told me to grant it" , but he still might have to pay costs out of the divisional budget, which is now going to be in the tens of thousands, rather than the thousands before the DC court legislation.

So thankfully,the system is working a bit better now with this on the whole

The system is working better because a whole lot of old sh1tes who also happened to be supers/chief supers retired thank god. I met some right stinkers. The new ones seem to be much fairer and cop the fact, its not the 1950's anymore where they can do as they wish, there is accountability and a media that doesn't turn a blind eye anymore.

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Unfortunately not. Centrefire pistols were merely a scapegoat of the government at the time and there was no legitimate reasons why they should have been banned, so there's no point in trying to talk sense to the Minister of Justice. She's more concerned with implementing diversity quotas and hate speech legislation, both are illegal.

Go woke, go broke ! She needs to have a look around the world, people are getting tired of all that silliness.

tudderone wrote: »

[/B]

Go woke, go broke ! She needs to have a look around the world, people are getting tired of all that silliness.

Something tells me that won't stop her. Also isn't she on maternity leave now, so there's a new minister. Maybe we could fire off a few letters and emails to see if she'll budge on anything firearms related.

bmmb88

Re court costs.
I am one of the cases that went to the HC, cant remember how many were in the group ( it was like a class action). We won the right to have the refusals looked at again. It has always peed me off that the costs were never awarded against AGS.especially after the carryon of some AGS members. It cost me x (k) amount to get my licence back so its good to know that any didtrict court costs will be awarded to the gun owner if they win their case and the cost comes out of the AGS district budget. A least there are now some repercussions for the AGS when they lose.
Obviously not everybody who had been refused a renewal for a pistol that they had held for 4 years could afford to go to court and many gave up their pistols which I think is a disgrace. I would love to see people track down their pistols and reapply for their licence. It would be interesting to see what happens. Does anyone think they would win.

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Something tells me that won't stop her. Also isn't she on maternity leave now, so there's a new minister. Maybe we could fire off a few letters and emails to see if she'll budge on anything firearms related.

Not with her in charge...Gotta choose your opponents as well as your battleground. She's a modern empowered urbanite,human rights type and you can be assured with an MSM/Hollywoo firearms knowledge base,who will go with what "progressive " mentality tells her about firearms.

bmmb88 wrote: »

Re court costs.
I am one of the cases that went to the HC, cant remember how many were in the group ( it was like a class action). We won the right to have the refusals looked at again. It has always peed me off that the costs were never awarded against AGS.especially after the carryon of some AGS members. It cost me x (k) amount to get my licence back so its good to know that any district court costs will be awarded to the gun owner if they win their case and the cost comes out of the AGS district budget. A least there are now some repercussions for the AGS when they lose.
Obviously not everybody who had been refused a renewal for a pistol that they had held for 4 years could afford to go to court and many gave up their pistols which I think is a disgrace. I would love to see people track down their pistols and reapply for their licence. It would be interesting to see what happens. Does anyone think they would win.

I feel your pain brother,and well done to have put it on the line in the High court. Without you guys there I doubt many if any DC cases would have been successful.:cool::cool:
Would it work trying to get those pistols back? Quite frankly I doubt it. For the following;

They are still intensely paranoid in AGS about them. It's an inbuilt generational phobia in the force and will take ages to wash out.not helped of course that every gang banger is running about with seemingly new in the grease Glocks or Tantal SMGs.:mad:

Depending on where you sold them to, they could be anywhere by now.The best-case scenario would be some Irish gun dealers held onto them after paying cents on the euro for them:mad: and kept them themselves. If you sold them out of the country...They could be anywhere....:(

Seeing we license the gun, not the man here, it would be a new application for a new firearm and good luck with that under the current legislation.

A surge of applications with this point in mind would probably give them the jitters,and they close off the loophole and or close down on those as well.

What might work,would be something like the old taxi plate market before it was opened to a free for all.

Say you are getting on or health problems, and want to give up CF pistol shooting. Instead of grandfathering and having to dispose your property for virtually nothing financially. Would it be beyond the ken of man to be able to sell them and the license on to someone else qualified to take it over?

IOW your license niche comes onto the market,and you can sell it at a price with your handgun
Benefits are.

You get an Irish market price for your handguns and license.

The CF pistol sport still survives in Ireland, albeit with getting on in life designs.

The numbers stay the same in the pool of licensed handguns out there.

It happens once in a blue moon so it's not that difficult in paperwork and licensing to achieve.

Someone else gets to enjoy CF pistol shooting here.

The state isn't looking at a challenge on how you have to dispose of your constitutionally protected right to ownership and use of property.

I could see that being a possible workable solution. As let's face it. Most of us CF pistol guys are now middle-aged folks, and not youngsters anymore.So we do need to look at the future too of getting younger folks shooting CF pistols too ?

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not with her in charge...Gotta choose your opponents as well as your battleground. She's a modern empowered urbanite,human rights type and you can be assured with an MSM/Hollywoo firearms knowledge base,who will go with what "progressive " mentality tells her about firearms.

Yeah, probably best not to draw any attention to us then.

Could things be better ? Yes obviously, but things on the licencing front could be a whole lot worse too. Remember a lot of supers etc wanted us back to .22 rifles and double barreled shotguns. I remember back in the 80's and 90's asking people, other shooters, dealers etc, if we would ever have the pistols back, and no one thought we would.

What i don't understand is the gardai's continued suspicion of us as a group. How many legally held firearms are used to commit crimes every year ? Someone will get nally'ed occasionally but thats it.

tudderone wrote: »

What i don't understand is the gardai's continued suspicion of us as a group. How many legally held firearms are used to commit crimes every year ? Someone will get nally'ed occasionally but thats it.

Well,think of it from their perspective[always good to look at a situation from your oppos eyes] They are carrying the can if something DOES go South and someone lets the dog off the leash. They are the ones answering the questions from the engaged media mob as to their faulty decision. which ain't good for the career and promotion aspect.

Remember, we are bucking the trend here in Irl compared to the EU on firearms legislation, and no doubt this would be called into question as well if something does happen.

Going by their info they see of mass shootings in the former UK colonies,[shall we call them that?Aus ,Canada,NZ,etc] and the UK and EU.
All they see is legally held firearms being used...With the exceptions sofar of Erfurt and Munich recently where one was using homebuilt guns and the other a darkweb acquired Glock.

So they are looking at anyone with the suspicion that they could be a possible future Ryan or Hamilton?
Plus many of them carried while on duty in lower ranks, and if you don't like, or resent carrying an item in the course of your work,in an organisation that is by and large unarmed,and has a pride in that fact they have been such for nigh on a century,I doubt you will look favourably on people who do like these items?

smmember20

loftypheasant wrote: »

Hello lads. I've been tuning in for years but haven't posted yet so be gentle with me! Just wondering if anyone who got a centrefire pistol licensed after the infamous cut-off date managed to retain their licence and firearm. Any legal challenges or successes/failures? I'm one of the poor eejits who got caught out. When my renewal was refused I continued shooting with club guns for a couple of years and then lost heart and packed it in. Money was tight at the time so legal recourse wasn't an option. I often get the hankering to go back target pistol shooting. I'm a game and vermin shooter with donkey's years but I've been a bit of a fair weather fudd regarding the other shooting sports so apologies for that in advance. There is great credit due to the fellas on here for fighting the good fight and keeping shooting sports alive in the face of adversity.

So the gun was licensed to you prior to November 2008? If that is the case regardless of the refusal to renew you are entitled to seek to have the gun licensed right now: Simple as!

smmember20 wrote: »

So the gun was licensed to you prior to November 2008? If that is the case regardless of the refusal to renew you are entitled to seek to have the gun licensed right now: Simple as!

Nope!!! Because if you "sold" or otherwise disposed of the gun to a dealer or otherwise let it go,and somehow recover your previously licensed gun.Its consider a new license application,as you are "buying" it back out of the dealers stock or re-importing it into Ireland.

IF however, you left it in to a dealers for safekeeping before you were refused and you wanted to see how things were going to work out over the years, you would have a better argument to get the license reissued, possibly, maybe, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it either.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope!!! Because if you "sold" or otherwise disposed of the gun to a dealer or otherwise let it go,and somehow recover your previously licensed gun.Its consider a new license application,as you are "buying" it back out of the dealers stock .

Not sure what law you think exists that differentiates whether the gun was sold or just stored in an RFD (only dealing with the gun staying in the 26), but no such distinction exists.

The law says unless you were licensed on the gun before Nov. 2008 you may not apply for it, but if you were, you can. I know, i done it.

By the by, technically every license is a new license. The format of the licensing system since 2009 was "sold" as a re-application process, even though its called renewal.

loftypheasant

No. The licence was granted after the date. I had the pistol bought before Ahern stood up to make his speech to save Ireland from 'gun culture'. I then had to go to the station, cap in hand, to see if I could licence it after being denounced from on-high. Surprisingly the licence came through within a couple of months. I was then refused when I went to 'renew' it in 2009. By this time retrospective secondary legislation had come in setting out the infamous date; the day of Dermot's big anti-gun speech. I received the generic 'blanket refusal letter' in the post which made no mention of the cut-off date. The speed with which I was granted the licence, initially, leads me to believe that it was, perhaps, granted in a prejudicial manner knowing that it would be refused again within a few short months. It was peculiar that it came through so fast as I have literally given years of my life waiting for licences to issue for more, lets say, 'mundane' firearms. I've had applications lost. I've had a cheque paid over to AGS for a licence lost. The only consistency I've had with AGS has been poor service and always lots of waiting for my licence to come through after purchasing my firearm and applying for a licence in the normal way. I'm a normal kind of fella and was never in any bother with the law and I'm shooting with 25 years without incident, thank God. Thanks for your interest and opinions so far lads. I appreciate it.

Cass

loftypheasant wrote: »

No. The licence was granted after the date.

Then its a no go. Has to be before the statement date to be eligible to apply for it.

After the November statement anything licensed stood revoked. Nearly got caught myself only for the import license was refused and my license "went back" onto my existing firearm.

[

QUOTE=Cass;117249494]Not sure what law you think exists that differentiates whether the gun was sold or just stored in an RFD (only dealing with the gun staying in the 26), but no such distinction exists.

I don't! Just giving an example of what some people have done,and to little beneficial effect for their efforts. As I said in my 2nd part. some[not me] claim that it is a plausible ground.I cant see how either.Hence my "I wouldn't bet the farm on it" remark.

The law says unless you were licensed on the gun before Nov. 2008 you may not apply for it, but if you were, you can. I know, i have done it.

Proably a 1 in X thousand case that you had there?:)

loftypheasant wrote: »

No. The licence was granted after the date. I had the pistol bought before Ahern stood up to make his speech to save Ireland from 'gun culture'.

Harking back to then...That statement and legislation threw a spanner into a more or less already wonky machine, that was reeling from the surge in handgun licenses at the time. So with Aherne and the chiefs and supers playing their genes too. It could have been very much a malicious move,or just someone not being up to speed on what was now legal to license and wanting to clear their desk of applications or the like. Just about everyone on both sides didn't know if they were coming or going. So there could have been multiple reasons for that grant.

A day late and a dollar short in your case.:(

smmember20

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope!!! Because if you "sold" or otherwise disposed of the gun to a dealer or otherwise let it go,and somehow recover your previously licensed gun.Its consider a new license application,as you are "buying" it back out of the dealers stock or re-importing it into Ireland.

IF however, you left it in to a dealers for safekeeping before you were refused and you wanted to see how things were going to work out over the years, you would have a better argument to get the license reissued, possibly, maybe, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it either.

So it has been shown on many occasions now that it is possible to substitute a CF pistol having had the license prior to the cut off date: Dare I open another argument and state that this shows the license is the key and not the particular gun:
Did you sell it export it or have it destroyed, you still were the person who held the certificate prior to 2008, you can only apply for a certificate for the particular firearm so do so: If you handed into a dealer then the course of the firearm is the same dealer even if he does not have it!
Once granted then apply for a substitution on a like for like basis, why because your original gun is sold!!!!!
Now are you passionate enough about the sport of CF shooting and one of the individuals who lost out and sold on or disposed of, it was you who were licensed not the gun!!!!!
So rather than a big heaving debate if you were effected then make the application, if you were not effected or have no interest in taking the course of action above then I have no interest in your opinion as to the rights wrongs legalities or other

smmember20 wrote: »

So it has been shown on many occasions now that it is possible to substitute a CF pistol having had the license prior to the cut off date:

Dare I open another argument and state that this shows the license is the key and not the particular gun:
Did you sell it export it or have it destroyed, you still were the person who held the certificate prior to 2008, you can only apply for a certificate for the particular firearm so do so: If you handed into a dealer then the course of the firearm is the same dealer even if he does not have it!
Once granted then apply for a substitution on a like for like basis, why because your original gun is sold!!!!!
Now are you passionate enough about the sport of CF shooting and one of the individuals who lost out and sold on or disposed of, it was you who were licensed not the gun!!!!!
So rather than a big heaving debate if you were effected then make the application, if you were not effected or have no interest in taking the course of action above then I have no interest in your opinion as to the rights wrongs legalities or other

Well tell you what...Go away and try out your theory in practice and come back to us with your substituted CF handgun or the original licensed handgun with a license issued in 2021 and tell us how it worked out and prove us all wrong? We'll wait...