Dublin - BusConnects

dublinman1990 · 16-05-2021 11:11pm

I think I have made a mistake here. EV78 has been repainted but it is still in the yellow Dublin Bus livery.

GT89 · 16-05-2021 11:26pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Wouldn't surprise me that they are painted and then sent off packing with the new colours.....
After a year or so, this then leaves the new owner with the colour they would need for services.

Now that's speculation of course.

Yeah but most of the buses that are sold off are used for private hire and schools work plus plenty are sold off to the UK. So an NTA livery would be useless for these.

I wouldn't think the NTA would want operators using 14+ year old buses on PSO services.

Sam Russell · 17-05-2021 10:21am

GT89 wrote: »

Yeah but most of the buses that are sold off are used for private hire and schools work plus plenty are sold off to the UK. So an NTA livery would be useless for these.

I wouldn't think the NTA would want operators using 14+ year old buses on PSO services.

London Transport still runs the Routemaster buses that are over 60 years old. As long as they are fully maintained, and upgraded as necessary, there is no real problem with old vehicles. The body is not going to deteriorate as it is mostly aluminium, the seats can be redone, the engines can be reworked or replaced as can all the mechanical parts of the chassis.

When LT ran the whole system, they used to rebuild the buses every number of years, and that age of the bus was irrelevant. That is all now privatised and so it is replace with new rather than rebuild.

The biggest problem with school transport is the use of part time vehicles with part time drivers.

From a users point of view, the quality of DB vehicles is excellent, so maybe their approach is correct. However, they have expanded the fleet so they would have a very young fleet because of that.

LXFlyer · 17-05-2021 10:31am

Sam Russell wrote: »

London Transport still runs the Routemaster buses that are over 60 years old. As long as they are fully maintained, and upgraded as necessary, there is no real problem with old vehicles. The body is not going to deteriorate as it is mostly aluminium, the seats can be redone, the engines can be reworked or replaced as can all the mechanical parts of the chassis.

When LT ran the whole system, they used to rebuild the buses every number of years, and that age of the bus was irrelevant. That is all now privatised and so it is replace with new rather than rebuild.

The biggest problem with school transport is the use of part time vehicles with part time drivers.

From a users point of view, the quality of DB vehicles is excellent, so maybe their approach is correct. However, they have expanded the fleet so they would have a very young fleet because of that.

Just to correct you. There are no routemasters in service anymore on TfL routes.

The routemasters were removed from everyday service in 2005, but were retained on two "heritage" routes through central London.

One was route 9 between Strand and the Royal Albert Hall, and the other was route 15 between Trafalgar Square and Tower Hill. Fully accessible normal buses continued to operate alongside, maintaining full step-free access, so these were very much tourist-facing extras.

The service on route 9H was subsequently withdrawn in 2014, and on route 15H in 2019, and TfL have confirmed that they will not be returning.

Sam Russell · 17-05-2021 10:41am

LXFlyer wrote: »

Just to correct you. There are no routemasters in service anymore on TfL routes.

The routemasters were removed from everyday service in 2005, but were retained on two "heritage" routes through central London.

One was route 9 between Strand and the Royal Albert Hall, and the other was route 15 between Trafalgar Square and Tower Hill. Fully accessible normal buses continued to operate alongside, maintaining full step-free access, so these were very much tourist-facing extras.

The service on route 9H was subsequently withdrawn in 2014, and on route 15H in 2019, and TfL have confirmed that they will not be returning.

I stand corrected, but even so - at 2004, those buses were over 40 years old, and still in service.

LXFlyer · 17-05-2021 10:47am

Sam Russell wrote: »

I stand corrected, but even so - at 2004, those buses were over 40 years old, and still in service.

That was more out of the novelty of having something unique to London though to be fair.

I think 14 years is definitely long enough for buses to be in service on front line service.

Thelonious Monk · 17-05-2021 11:18am

They do have the new fancy routemasters though

GT89 · 17-05-2021 11:57am

LXFlyer wrote: »

That was more out of the novelty of having something unique to London though to be fair.

I think 14 years is definitely long enough for buses to be in service on front line service.

And don't forget the routemasters also operated alongside regular buses which were replaced at normal fleet replacement intervals. Yes definitely they were kept more for the novelty factor than as part of a strategic move to keep buses going for as long as possible.

A historic bus like a routemaster is obviously going to be an attractive vehicle for passengers in the same manner a steam train is also attractive. A newer bus like an an ALX400 or Enviro 400 kept on the road past it's sell by date is not an attractive vehicle.

LXFlyer · 17-05-2021 12:25pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

They do have the new fancy routemasters though

They do, but an extravagant cost, and have had various mechanical and operational issues issues, including:

Batteries have required modification or replacement on over 25% of the fleet;
Opening windows had to be retro-fitted on the buses due to sauna-like conditions on board in summer (the air-cooling system was eventually accepted as a complete failure),
The second on-board staff member role (monitoring the rear platform, but not selling/checking tickets) has been abolished, due to cost-cutting.

The buses are now operating in the exact same manner as every other London bus (entry only at front and exit at centre/rear doors), despite the open rear platform being one of the main reasons put forward for their purchase.

A vanity project, pushed by Boris Johnson, if ever there was one.

GT89 · 17-05-2021 12:43pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

They do, but an extravagant cost, and have had various mechanical and operational issues issues, including:

Batteries have required modification or replacement on over 25% of the fleet;

Opening windows had to be retro-fitted on the buses due to sauna-like conditions on board in summer (the air-cooling system was eventually accepted as a complete failure),

The second on-board staff member role (monitoring the rear platform, but not selling/checking tickets) has been abolished, due to cost-cutting.

The buses are now operating in the exact same manner as every other London bus (entry only at front and exit at centre/rear doors), despite the open rear platform being one of the main reasons put forward for their purchase.

A vanity project, pushed by Boris Johnson, if ever there was one.

The bendybuses seemed to work quite well in London and we're much better than the NBFL. Was disappointed to see these done away with. The only buses in the UK and Ireland that operated to the continental approach to ticketing and boarding.

bk · 17-05-2021 12:47pm

Generally speaking, as vehicles become older, the cost of maintenance goes up substantially, until it can end up costing more then just buying a new bus/train/car/airplane.

It is the same reason why on average cars only last 12 years, beyond that, the cost of lets say replacing or overhauling the engine can be as much as buying a newer car.

Sure, it can be worth the big maintenance cost for something like an expensive, unique classic car or steam engine, interesting bus for tourist reasons. But it doesn't make sense for most services, specially not heavily used services.

Also add to this, newer vehicles being more fuel efficient and thus saving on the fuel bill can be a very big deal for operating costs. Newer, more fuel efficient vehicles can often pay for themselves with fuel savings.

Add to that issues and policies around less polluting vehicles.

LXFlyer · 17-05-2021 1:35pm

GT89 wrote: »

The bendybuses seemed to work quite well in London and we're much better than the NBFL. Was disappointed to see these done away with. The only buses in the UK and Ireland that operated to the continental approach to ticketing and boarding.

Similar issues though with the New Bus for London in one respect - they suffered from massive amounts of fare evasion.

LXFlyer · 17-05-2021 1:37pm

bk wrote: »

Generally speaking, as vehicles become older, the cost of maintenance goes up substantially, until it can end up costing more then just buying a new bus/train/car/airplane.

It is the same reason why on average cars only last 12 years, beyond that, the cost of lets say replacing or overhauling the engine can be as much as buying a newer car.

Sure, it can be worth the big maintenance cost for something like an expensive, unique classic car or steam engine, interesting bus for tourist reasons. But it doesn't make sense for most services, specially not heavily used services.

Also add to this, newer vehicles being more fuel efficient and thus saving on the fuel bill can be a very big deal for operating costs. Newer, more fuel efficient vehicles can often pay for themselves with fuel savings.

Add to that issues and policies around less polluting vehicles.

One lesson from experience both in Dublin and elsewhere is that it is better not to be the guinea pig for brand new models.

Best to select a model that has proven its worth elsewhere and that has a full after-sales support network available.

GT89 · 17-05-2021 1:47pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Similar issues though with the New Bus for London in one respect - they suffered from massive amounts of fare evasion.

Fare evasion is more a funding issue. It wouldn't be an issue if an adequate number of revenue protection officers were employed to make it worthwhile. Open systems work fine if you provide an adequate number of revenue officers works on the Luas and works in many EU cities.

bk · 17-05-2021 2:22pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

that has a full after-sales support network available.

This model is increasingly becoming the norm, not just for buses, but across many industries, trains, aircraft, even military vehicles.

Companies aren't just buying the vehicle, but also an ongoing, long term, maintenance and support contract.

While not cheap, it tends to motivate manufacturers to build more reliable and easy to maintain vehicles as they know they will be maintaining them long term.

bk · 17-05-2021 2:26pm

BTW on the new bus stops, out walking today, the new stops are in place and they look very well.

What is really nice is that the old poles they replaced on my street, just had a DB sign up top, no other info/route number/stop name/info panel. The new signs have all that, and as such are much more informative then the old ones.

I'm not sure if they plan on doing that for every pole in Dublin, but even if they increase the number of "full" poles like this, it will be a nice step up.

Thelonious Monk · 17-05-2021 2:57pm

when are they going to start rolling out the proper bus lanes for this that require CPOing etc or is that still not a definite?

LXFlyer · 17-05-2021 3:13pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

when are they going to start rolling out the proper bus lanes for this that require CPOing etc or is that still not a definite?

The Core Bus Corridors project (which is the infrastructure) goes to An Bórd Pleanála this summer.

Physical rollout will depend on how long that process then takes.

GT89 · 17-05-2021 3:54pm

bk wrote: »

BTW on the new bus stops, out walking today, the new stops are in place and they look very well.

What is really nice is that the old poles they replaced on my street, just had a DB sign up top, no other info/route number/stop name/info panel. The new signs have all that, and as such are much more informative then the old ones.

I'm not sure if they plan on doing that for every pole in Dublin, but even if they increase the number of "full" poles like this, it will be a nice step up.

I don't how they're going to manage when the routes change over. The trueform DB stops in the city centre are quite easy to update as the route number is on a tile that can be removed easily. But when the H Spine commences they'll have to either remove the head of the bus stop and replace it which will be very wasteful or put a sticker showing the new routes which will look tacky imo because with this design the route numbers are printed onto the bus stop head.

bk · 17-05-2021 4:09pm

GT89 wrote: »

I don't how they're going to manage when the routes change over. The trueform DB stops in the city centre are quite easy to update as the route number is on a tile that can be removed easily. But when the H Spine commences they'll have to either remove the head of the bus stop and replace it which will be very wasteful or put a sticker showing the new routes which will look tacky imo because with this design the route numbers are printed onto the bus stop head.

I don't think it would be too much waste to just replace the sign up top.

Certainly much quicker and easier then the major job of replacing the entire pole that they are currently doing.

It is also possible that the sign up top is just a sticker on a metal back, so the whole sticker could be replaced, I'll take a closer look at them the next time I'm out.

punisher5112 · 17-05-2021 4:12pm

GT89 wrote: »

I don't how they're going to manage when the routes change over. The trueform DB stops in the city centre are quite easy to update as the route number is on a tile that can be removed easily. But when the H Spine commences they'll have to either remove the head of the bus stop and replace it which will be very wasteful or put a sticker showing the new routes which will look tacky imo because with this design the route numbers are printed onto the bus stop head.

They're removing these poles, they cost a fortune.

cgcsb · 17-05-2021 4:30pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

when are they going to start rolling out the proper bus lanes for this that require CPOing etc or is that still not a definite?

2023 to 2024 but could still be cancelled by then. There'll be nothing like that on the h spine anyway.

LXFlyer · 17-05-2021 4:43pm

GT89 wrote: »

I don't how they're going to manage when the routes change over. The trueform DB stops in the city centre are quite easy to update as the route number is on a tile that can be removed easily. But when the H Spine commences they'll have to either remove the head of the bus stop and replace it which will be very wasteful or put a sticker showing the new routes which will look tacky imo because with this design the route numbers are printed onto the bus stop head.

They will put new stickers on them I would imagine, as they did on the stops in the city centre when the second tranche of BE Commuter routes switched to GAI. You wouldn't notice the change to be honest.

I am pretty sure that they are stickers in the first place.

Putting brand new heads on them would be a waste.

LXFlyer · 17-05-2021 4:45pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

They're removing these poles, they cost a fortune.

Again, it's a relaunch of the bus service.

Marketing and branding are important elements of any relaunch.

yascaoimhin · 17-05-2021 5:02pm

bk wrote: »

I don't think it would be too much waste to just replace the sign up top.

Certainly much quicker and easier then the major job of replacing the entire pole that they are currently doing.

A lot of the bus stop poles in the city are decades old at this stage, a lot of them are also Iron so they rust and require constant repainting. The new poles are stainless steel and will require less maintenance to keep looking well.

yascaoimhin · 17-05-2021 5:32pm

I do think the National Transport Authority are wasting this opportunity to develop, not just a consistent design language for the transport network, but one that is distinctly theirs. The new bus stops look stale and clinical. Compared to the likes of TFL's roundel I feel like they throwing away a massive concept.

This is what I've proposed that keeps the original colour scheme and layout but makes the stops distinctive and uniquely TFI.

https://twitter.com/yascaoimhin/status/1394328970137686019?s=20

GT89 · 17-05-2021 5:41pm

They could use a single decker bus icon to represent a coach/long distance bus and a double decker to represent a city bus and if a stop if served by both BE and DB/GAI services have icons of the two. I would prefer they used an icon of the bus sideways not just the front.

Using the front only doesn't clearly distinguish it as a bus. For example the current icon they use could also be a train.

BonnieSituation · 17-05-2021 5:48pm

GT89 wrote: »

They could use a single decker bus icon to represent a coach/long distance bus and a double decker to represent a city bus and if a stop if served by both BE and DB/GAI services have icons of the two. I would prefer they used an icon of the bus sideways not just the front.

Using the front only doesn't clearly distinguish it as a bus. For example the current icon they use could also be a train.

It says 'BUS' on the front of the icon. It also will be a bus stop on a roadway. It's unlikely to be serviced by any trains.

BonnieSituation · 17-05-2021 5:59pm

GT89 wrote: »

True but a native Chinese or Arabic speaker might not realise that

Right so.

I don't think there's much hope for anyone if they're waiting for a train at a bus stop.

[Deleted User] · 17-05-2021 6:01pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It says 'BUS' on the front of the icon. It also will be a bus stop on a roadway. It's unlikely to be serviced by any trains.

Then why even bother with an icon? :rolleyes:
Bad design is bad design.

Dublin - BusConnects

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