Garda Staff - Removal from Civil Service

Samuel T. Cogley · 14-05-2021 5:36pm #1

General Scheme Here:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf/Files/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf

(5) Every member of the civilian staff of An Garda Síochána who is a civil servant
of the Government before the commencement of this head and who is
designated by order of the Minister for the purposes of this head shall, on
being so designated, become a member of garda staff.

Union not consulted from what I can gather. My reading of it is Garda Staff will no longer be Civil Servants Per Se. Interested on peoples views and opinions on what this means if it makes it into the Bill and eventually the legislation.

Wonderstruck · 14-05-2021 6:38pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

General Scheme Here:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf/Files/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf

Union not consulted from what I can gather. My reading of it is Garda Staff will no longer be Civil Servants Per Se. Interested on peoples views and opinions on what this means if it makes it into the Bill and eventually the legislation.

Wow to think of all the people they took off those CO / EO panels and subjected to all those months high level garda clearance! If I worked there I would be absolutely livid.

Very surprised that Forsa wasn't consulted though, that's a huge industrial relations matter if it does mean those staff losing CS status. Though I wouldn't put it past AGS they have a weird thing about being special compared to other depts like how they don't use PeoplePoint.

Vologda69 · 14-05-2021 7:04pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

General Scheme Here:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf/Files/General_Scheme_of_the_Policing_Security_and_Community_Safety_Bill.pdf

Union not consulted from what I can gather. My reading of it is Garda Staff will no longer be Civil Servants Per Se. Interested on peoples views and opinions on what this means if it makes it into the Bill and eventually the legislation.

Wud expect a firestorm if that was the case.

PCX · 14-05-2021 7:19pm

Does that mean that current civil service Garda staff will no longer be eligible for civil service interdepartmental promotion panels or for CS mobility transfers?

If so that is a significant negative change to terms and conditions. I wouldn't blame Garda staff for being angry about this.

Ravelleman · 14-05-2021 7:26pm

It's long been on the cards but my fear would be that it will further divorce Garda Staff from the mainstream of the Civil Service. AGS is already a parallel universe in many respects and not usually in a good way.

blindsider · 14-05-2021 10:37pm

Are there any other depts where civilian staff work alongside specialist staff e.g. Fire Brigade or ambulance? Would it impact them?

NapoleonInRags · 15-05-2021 8:01am

Ravelleman wrote: »

It's long been on the cards but my fear would be that it will further divorce Garda Staff from the mainstream of the Civil Service. AGS is already a parallel universe in many respects and not usually in a good way.

It will completely divorce Garda Staff from the mainstream Civil Service- that's the whole idea.

NapoleonInRags · 15-05-2021 8:03am

blindsider wrote: »

Are there any other depts where civilian staff work alongside specialist staff e.g. Fire Brigade or ambulance? Would it impact them?

Department of Defence is probably the clearest example. But this legislation is specific to Garda staff - so won't impact on any other Civil Servants.

Ahshurlookit · 15-05-2021 8:51am

This will be a disaster for CO's and EO's especially. No longer eligible for interdepartmental competitions and I presume no longer eligible for CS mobility. The only chance of promotion is the internal competitions which are run on an ad hoc basis, unless you qualify for open competitions through educational qualifications.

headtheball14 · 15-05-2021 9:05am

So once you are in gs you are locked in. Lots of areas have specialist and general civil service working together. It's not a good idea to silo people off . It would certainly mean people outside would be put off applying for roles there. Maybe that's the idea .
What is any other argument for this.

Ahshurlookit · 15-05-2021 9:26am

It was explained to me that as things are, GSOC have no authority to investigate Garda Staff but once they are removed from the civil service and under the new Garda act, GSOC will have the authority to investigate Garda staff in the same way it currently investigates Gardaí.

Turtyturd · 15-05-2021 11:02am

It’s not a good thing for the civilian staff. I worked in a department that has a similar situation and the civilian staff get absolutely no recognition. They’ll be considered disciplined staff when it comes to benefits like flexi, mobility, parental leave and other benefits offered by the wider civil service but will be considered civilian staff if they enquire about the benefits for disciplined staff like allowances etc.

Also don’t know what the union situation is like with An Garda Siochana but if the civilian staff are forced to sign up to their union they’ll have no representation.

doc22 · 15-05-2021 12:09pm

Garda HQ prob wants to hire its own staff too not whatever pas hands them

Addle · 15-05-2021 12:14pm

Will this affect pulse employees?

Wonderstruck · 15-05-2021 12:55pm

doc22 wrote: »

Garda HQ prob wants to hire its own staff too not whatever pas hands them

AGS can easily get permission to run a competition separate from PAS (most depts have no inclination to do this), that alone isn't a good reason to deprive people of CS status (which does take away rights to mobility, interd competions etc).

I've met people who moved on mobility out of AGS etc a factor was that in AGS was what people have said here, for the opportunties to move up which are much rarer in AGS.

Also remember the gardai don't have a union, they have a "representive association" as they legally aren't allowed a union. So it also raises issues about the staff's ability to effectively unionise.

Not to mention civilian staff have different representative needs, unionwise compared to gardai. What will this change mean for their working conditions or pay?!

That's why I find this proposal so weird and odd, though I don't want to jump to conclusions on it, as it might get axed but that is a lot of civil servants who could be seriously impacted.

Ahshurlookit · 15-05-2021 1:00pm

Addle wrote: »

Will this affect pulse employees?

Do you mean staff in GISC? If so, yeah it will.

Lynnington3 · 15-05-2021 1:14pm

This has me scared! I’m Garda staff, I will have 2 years service in September. I took a post up in Dublin , living in Offaly and commuting. I’m on the mobility list but won’t be eligible until September and even then will probably we waiting a few years for a position.
Does this mean I can forget about getting a transfer closer to home that isn’t in AGS? That will leave me extremely limited

doc22 · 15-05-2021 2:18pm

Could this also be pushback on the civilisation of roles within AGS

Ravelleman · 15-05-2021 3:00pm

NapoleonInRags wrote: »

It will completely divorce Garda Staff from the mainstream Civil Service- that's the whole idea.

You are of course right in absolute terms, though the COFPI report frames it more as a means of solving a Garda problem than any problem that Garda Staff face, hence my comment. I am not convinced that the solution is to go even further down this road when the outlook is already quite bleak for many civil servants in AGS. Whatever about internal competitions, it can be quite hard already for Garda Staff to make their case in open competitions at certain levels because the work serves only certain purposes (AGS is not a policy-oriented organisation, for example). To my mind, many of AGS' woes in recruitment have been own goals on its part, not that of PAS.

Meathlass · 16-05-2021 1:09pm

Lynnington3 wrote: »

This has me scared! I’m Garda staff, I will have 2 years service in September. I took a post up in Dublin , living in Offaly and commuting. I’m on the mobility list but won’t be eligible until September and even then will probably we waiting a few years for a position.
Does this mean I can forget about getting a transfer closer to home that isn’t in AGS? That will leave me extremely limited

This is only the General Scheme of a bill - basically a wish list of everything they want in the Act. It has a long way to go to make it into legislation and even then certain sections might not be commenced for years. I could see the Unions kicking up a huge row over this so you will have plenty of time to move into another Department. But, yes, as others have said, this would fundamentally alter the conditions of civil servants in the AGS.

Samsgirl · 21-05-2021 9:49pm

Has anyone heard any more on this?

dat6 · 22-05-2021 9:58pm

Samsgirl wrote: »

Has anyone heard any more on this?

The new Garda act replaces the existing 2005 act and defines the structure of the organisation. One fo the main aspects is to make the Garda Commissioner independent and like a “CEO”.

I checked out these proposed changes with Garda HR, and the first time they heard anything about it was when it was published. There hasn’t been much from the Union about it but this won’t go down without a fight. It completely changes what existing Garda Staff signed up to. The future is grim within AGS for typical COs in a local Garda station where there is zero progression.

The Explanatory Memorandum sets out

Connected with this approach, the Scheme enables garda staff to be recruited directly to An Garda Síochána rather than to the Civil Service with provision made for the transfer of existing staff subject to the making of an order by the Minister following engagement with staff representative bodies.

GSOC proposed changes include...

garda staff will be brought within its remit - this is subject to their change in status from civil servants to public servants to avoid overlap with the existing disciplinary processes that apply to the Civil Service;

So lots to negotiate but my thinking is this won’t happen anytime soon.

The most worrying part is that Garda Staff won’t be able to join a Union, ultimately not represented

So if this becomes a reality, expect a large amount of staff requesting transfers and work to rule!

Silent night · 05-07-2022 4:20am

Any update on this

Tipp star · 26-07-2022 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291570#Comment_119291570

Jumping in on this thread here, I am a garda civilian staff member, and partially due to this proposed change I think i would move departments through mobility. I am fairly high up the mobility list but think it could be up to a year before i get my transfer. If the changes do come into action before then, will mobility still apply for civilian staff members?

Mutt Love · 04-08-2022 5:39pm

I received an email from Forsa yesterday outlining that the bill is still being pushed ahead and nothing has really changed. Concerns have been ignored repeatedly since 2018. There seems to be a complete lack of engagement and acknowledgement of concerns from the justice committee which is worrying.

They're looking for Garda staff to sign up to be notified of online meetings they'll be doing throughout the month, to gather feedback on the proposed changes. You don't need to be a Forsa member to sign up for the meetings.

Link: https://forms.microsoft.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=uiD74H4OB0SLzKGKZgH-X4Lh7kldJkVMsC3hGZBjsztUREtKSjJaMEVMQjIwUDQ3R0w5MDBLT1dUSC4u

Hopefully there's power in numbers, the more staff that know about it and speak up the better.

Just wanted to share the info as I know it isn't always widely available depending on where you're based in AGS.

lisabiscuit · 08-08-2022 10:18pm

I've just signed up for one of these meetings. It's quite worrying really.

Lynnington3 · 12-08-2022 10:46am

Does anyone know if these changes will only affect new incoming staff? Or are they changing the terms and conditions of existing staffs jobs?

lisabiscuit · 12-08-2022 6:52pm

Both existing and new staff as far as I'm aware. Very sneaky to be honest. If it wasn't for the union I'd never have heard a peep about it.

Nigel Fairservice · 17-08-2022 1:26pm

Out of interest, will staff be given the option of transferring to a civil service organisation if these changes happen?

dat6 · 17-08-2022 11:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119484950#Comment_119484950

Nobody can answer this yet. It will depend on the final legislation that goes to the President and discussions.

In the current form, Garda Staff will be no longer civil servants.

billyhead · 18-08-2022 7:09am

Put your name down for a mobility transfer asap if you want a move.

Garda Staff - Removal from Civil Service

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