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FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

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blanch152

Shebean wrote: »

Water charges and metering were brought in to make money not to help the environment.

Oh dear god, what is the point of any charge if it doesn't make money?

The water charges were brought in for two purposes

(1) The infrastructure needs investment. This isn't going away as a problem and the State will need more sources of income to pay for the infrastructure.

(2) The polluter pays principle. Anyone who wastes water pays more. That is the impetus behind the charges.

RandomViewer

I think the only way water charges would ever pass would be the total dissolution of FG and an understanding that all party members and their offspring could never hold any public office and that Redacted and all his cronies be interned forever,

Shebean

Water charges and metering were brought in to make money not to help the environment. The board appointments and questionable metering contract. We sold a company at a loss and then awarded that company a state contract.
These are some of the issues people have with the whole thing. Because either FF or FG, (depending on the period) left the water infrastructure to rot for generations and used the public interest in the environment to look after their own cronies. This was at a time when the country was in the aftermath of a meltdown. Their personal greed has no shame.
Labour didn't lose out for 'promising the sun, moon and stars'. It was because they supported Fine Gael and didn't stand up to them.
FG welcomed and encouraged private companies in buying up and building to rent property because they wouldn't build meaningful numbers of social housing. Now we've passed the tipping point they have the cheek to pretend it's all news to them.
I think the fact that housing has eclipsed Covid in the public mind has them scared and rightfully so.
Ordinary people are being priced out and paying ridiculous rents. This is not on the 4.93%, (2019 figure) of unemployed often abused and misused to excuse private greed ran amok and encouraged by FF and FG.

meeeeh

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes...the doorsteps beckon. Not looking good tbh.

Maybe. The issues ard not easy to fix though and everyone should remember where Labour ended when they promised sun, moon and stars.

Fann Linn

blanch152 wrote: »

There was never a chance of Irish Water being privatised.

The "gotcha" moment of one line in one letter in a mountain of documentation was based on a misunderstanding.

Shure Noonan only invited the vultures in to help us out.
Now FFG can't run far away from them.

blanch152

timmyntc wrote: »

Says who? Blanch?

Almost as if you just want it to be a red herring, so you can keep on mudslinging at people who dont support water charges as being freeloaders etc

There was never a chance of Irish Water being privatised.

The "gotcha" moment of one line in one letter in a mountain of documentation was based on a misunderstanding.

timmyntc

blanch152 wrote: »

Number 2 is a complete red herring.

Says who? Blanch?

Almost as if you just want it to be a red herring, so you can keep on mudslinging at people who dont support water charges as being freeloaders etc

FrancieBrady

The Truth Hurts wrote: »

They will try not respond to this and keep talking about water charges (which the Govt have stated they are against and wont be happening)

The poor lad from FG was near going to burst into tears getting torn to shreds by members of the public.

Yes...the doorsteps beckon. Not looking good tbh.

blanch152

timmyntc wrote: »

Opposition from water charges comes from 2 fronts:
1 - dont want to pay for water, should be free etc (cant pay wont pay)
2 - dont want public water to be privatised. Believe it should be totally state/public owned

You'd be doing well to find many people who dont fit into 1 of the 2 categories. But its not a case of everyone wanting it for "free" or wanting others to pay for it.

Number 2 is a complete red herring.

Stovepipe

Micheal Martin wont introduce water charges because he simply doesnt have to. If you drive a car in this country, you already pay water tax. As for VRT, this has already been challenged by Europe and the State pays a fine rather than do without VRT. The EU will prevail and VRT will be ended. Problem is, the advent of more EVs means that they will have to find an alternative tax when they reduce the consumption of diesel and petrol, so EV owners will get hit by a levy or some kind of tax,probably at the charging point when they plug in, either at home or outside. It wouldn't surprise me if the price of charging your car at a petrol station rose dramatically once the tipping point of EV vehicle numbers is reached. If the Govt adopt everything in this OECD report, it's a taxing charter.

timmyntc

CarProblem wrote: »

And successive governments, all including either or both of FF/FG, agreed with them.

Strangely nobody makes that argument in relation to other charges where we effectively also "pay twice"

Opposition from water charges comes from 2 fronts:
1 - dont want to pay for water, should be free etc (cant pay wont pay)
2 - dont want public water to be privatised. Believe it should be totally state/public owned

You'd be doing well to find many people who dont fit into 1 of the 2 categories. But its not a case of everyone wanting it for "free" or wanting others to pay for it.

blanch152

CarProblem wrote: »

And successive governments, all including either or both of FF/FG, agreed with them.

Strangely nobody makes that argument in relation to other charges where we effectively also "pay twice"

We pay twice with VAT, we have already paid tax on our income, we pay twice with CAT as we have already paid tax on the income buying the asset, we pay twice for passports, for driving licences, for dog licences, for TV licences (we do see it argued for that one), we pay twice for car tax, we pay twice for stamp duty on houses etc. etc.

Stovepipe

We pay for our water via road taxes and some development levies. This is fact. Part of your motor tax(cash cow) is siphoned off to go directly to the road fund and has been for at least a decade. Councils get to keep some of it instead of having to remit it all to central Government. It saves them having to deal with 32 entities with regard to water treatment. Some of our road taxes actually go on keeping local roads fixed and the same applies to water works.

[Deleted User]

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

They are objecting to everyone paying their fair share.

They want only the tax payers to pay for everyone else's water.

And successive governments, all including either or both of FF/FG, agreed with them.

howwatermelon wrote: »

I might be mistaken here, but don’t we already pay for water in the motor tax? Seems a bit unfair to be paying for something twice.

Strangely nobody makes that argument in relation to other charges where we effectively also "pay twice"

AlmightyCushion

howwatermelon wrote: »

I might be mistaken here, but don’t we already pay for water in the motor tax? Seems a bit unfair to be paying for something twice.

No, it comes out of general taxation.

FrancieBrady

The core issues that were prevalent at the last election beginning to resurface with no resolution and no belief in the electorate that the current government have the solutions.

https://twitter.com/SocDems/status/1391879154979819524/photo/1

Fann Linn

blanch152 wrote: »

Don't ever mind being a lone voice in the wilderness, especially when I am certain I am calling for the right thing.

Good on you.

blanch152

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

In direct defiance of their party leader? Good luck with that...

Don't ever mind being a lone voice in the wilderness, especially when I am certain I am calling for the right thing.

[Deleted User]

blanch152 wrote: »

I am sure that all of those who have criticised the government for not following exactly all of the advice from the experts in NPHET will be on shortly to criticise the government for not following all of the advice from the experts in the OECD and will urge them to introduce water charges.

I will certainly be pushing my local Green TD to raise the issue of water charges in the context of the next budget. They are badly needed from an environmental point of view as the OECD have said.

I might be mistaken here, but don’t we already pay for water in the motor tax? Seems a bit unfair to be paying for something twice.

Loafing Oaf

blanch152 wrote: »

I will certainly be pushing my local Green TD to raise the issue of water charges in the context of the next budget.

In direct defiance of their party leader? Good luck with that...

blanch152

I am sure that all of those who have criticised the government for not following exactly all of the advice from the experts in NPHET will be on shortly to criticise the government for not following all of the advice from the experts in the OECD and will urge them to introduce water charges.

I will certainly be pushing my local Green TD to raise the issue of water charges in the context of the next budget. They are badly needed from an environmental point of view as the OECD have said.

Floppybits

Fann Linn wrote: »

A referendum that they wouldn't be privatised might sway me. Until then I wouldn't trust them an inch.

This is the thing I would say for most people, me included. I don't trust them not to sell off the water infrastructure to some private company. For me this would have been the main sticking point with the water charges. I don't mind paying for it but as we have seen with housing and how the private companies operate their is no way I would support the water infrastructure being sold off to a private company.

Fann Linn

meeeeh wrote: »

If you are paying taxes you are paying for water charges. If you are not then I can see how you wouldn't want to make it fairer for everyone.

Water charges are toxic and no sane government would introduce them but they are toxic because some cared more about their political gain than fairness.

A referendum that they wouldn't be privatised might sway me. Until then I wouldn't trust them an inch.

AlmightyCushion

I really wish the current rents and housing prices were as toxic as 20 euro a month water charges are.

meeeeh

The Truth Hurts wrote: »

you saying FG and Labour were not sane in Government when they tried to introduce them?

No I'm saying backlash by we want everything for free crowd was so big that it poisoned water charges for at least a generation. Yes the protestors 'won' but in the end it will be less fair and worse for the environment. That's what happens when populism wins.

Floppybits

The Truth Hurts wrote: »

you saying FG and Labour were not sane in Government when they tried to introduce them?

For me FG and Labour went about introducing the water charges all wrong and just made a complete and utter balls of the whole thing. So much so that no government in this country will go next to near it for a couple of decades.

Floppybits

The Taoiseach has spoken water charges are not coming back

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1392050804006211585

meeeeh

Fann Linn wrote: »

You tell me. FFG have ruled them out according to CB live just now.

If you are paying taxes you are paying for water charges. If you are not then I can see how you wouldn't want to make it fairer for everyone.

Water charges are toxic and no sane government would introduce them but they are toxic because some cared more about their political gain than fairness.

Fann Linn

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Are charges not coming back in a different model?

You tell me. FFG have ruled them out according to CB live just now.

Jinglejangle69

Fann Linn wrote: »

They're not in govt. Get onto your local FFG TD and tell them you want water charges reintroduced.

Will you come back and let us know how you got on?

Are charges not coming back in a different model?