AlmightyCushion wrote: They tried that with all those housing trusts building social housing whilst trying to keep their borrowings off the state's books. It didn't work. That was because all the income for these housing trusts would be coming from the state. if they created a new entity that was renting or selling to non social tenants and thus not using state money, it is possible that would work. They might think that the optics of that are bad. State using money to build houses for people with good jobs when the social housing list is so long. Personally I think that the potential negative press from it this is over stated.
PropQueries wrote: » I think there is a magic bullet. Copenhagen has c. 600k people living in a similar footprint and in similar low rise buildings as Dublin City has c. 100k people living between the canals. That’s the solution right there and it’s enough existing, already built space to supply all housing needs in Ireland for the next 20 to 30 years without building one new house/apartment (assuming we do need the projected figures amount). It’s not a supply problem. It’s a mismanagement of existing supply problem. They’re going to re-enter the market at some stage (sooner rather than later IMO) given how many of these properties are owned (I assume) by the funds so we might as well get/force them into supply now IMO Good for people. Good for society. Good for the taxpayer. Good for the environment.
The Real Costs of New Apartment Delivery 2020 was published by the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland (SCSI). It found that the all-in cost of delivering medium-rise two-bedroom apartments in the Greater Dublin Area ranged from €411,000 for a low-spec unit in the suburbs, to €619,000 for a high-spec one in the city. The costs of delivering a low-rise suburban apartment ranges from €359,000 for a low-spec unit – an increase of 8% since the SCSI’s last apartment report in 2017 – to €413,000 for a high-spec one, up 7%. All these figures are cost prices and sales prices would need to exceed these for developments to be viable. The latest report is based on data covering almost 10,000 apartments in four different categories in 49 schemes. Last July, the SCSI’s “Real Cost of New Housing Delivery” found the cost of delivering a three-bed semi in the Dublin area was €371,000.
Villa05 wrote: » Build to rent/buy for low middle income workers priced out of the market close to their place of work is the obvious solution self financing and scale able. Price set at % of income and as housing is subsidised qualification for such housing requiring payment deducted from wages avoiding any unnecessary arrears. Sales price must cover replacement cost at a minimum
cnocbui wrote: » People are looking for more room in their accommodation, not less. If you are advocating tearing down existing buildings to build anew, that is a very expensive non starter. Apartments are more expensive to provide, than houses and they are on the nose after covid lockdowns. I thought you were worried about this countries levels of debt?https://www.thejournal.ie/first-time-buyers-apartment-dublin-5335798-Jan2021/
AlmightyCushion wrote: » It's the fiscal compact. It was brought in after the last crash. Short answer, a country needs to keep their deficit below 3% of GDP whilst keeping their debt to GDP ratio at 60%. If your debt to GDP ratio is over 60% you need to be reducing it. It has been temporarily suspended for Covid related spending.
timmyntc wrote: » Something seriously wrong if apartments are that expensive to build
Villa05 wrote: » We had a spreadsheet of the various councils and many of them were delivering housing at significantly below market prices albeit in low volumes We have a dedicated division of Sisk for delivering affordable housing. We have o cualann housing and others that appear to be extremely successful in delivering affordable housing. Commercial sector appears to be winding down freeing up labour Finance available at 0% to the state with the EU anxious for states to assist in kick starting economies The state is the largest landowner in the country and I'm sure their are costs in leaving it idle Pool the competent sectors of the state and let them focus on the areas most affected by supply issues and let them take advantage of the many circumstances that are beneficial to the state in solving the issue. Focus on housing workers close to where they work. The additional supply will trickle up and down addressing issues there also It really is not that complicated
cnocbui wrote: » It's the foundations required, to some extent. Building up is cost inefficient and something normally only pursued in places where land is near non-existent, like Hong Kong, inner Sydney, New York. Ireland is not in that position and neither is Dublin, where there is a farm backing onto DCU, for instance.
cnocbui wrote: » where there is a farm backing onto DCU, for instance.
AlmightyCushion wrote: What counts as middle income here? 50k, 60k, 70k? Those people being eligible for this housing will cause opposition to scream and shout about how the most vulnerable will be priced out of it by the 'rich' and all that usual shÃte. It shouldn't be the case but it is. It is part of what has got us into this mess. The councils are buying up and renting housing for social housing at huge cost and people not eligible for social housing are getting screwed.
PropQueries wrote: » Wouldn't cost the taxpayer anything. I believe (and it's only my belief) that the funds own many of these buildings in the city centre (Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Galway and many other small towns around the country). Slap a 10% derelict property tax (like Washington D.C.) on them and see how imaginative they would get in bringing them to market. I would be of the belief that many have already or are in the process of being refurbished and many will be entering supply in the very near future. If I'm right that the funds do control many of these type of properties around Ireland, they can see which way the wind is blowing and will be looking to exit very shortly IMOIn relation to the cost of building a house. Why does the proposed affordable housing bill believe that developers in Co. Tipperary can build and sell new build a-rated homes for €225k, but in Dublin they need to sell them for c. €450k to make a profit? Cairn Homes average selling price per unit in 2020 was c. €350k and Glenveagh's was less (if I'm remembering correctly), so the SCSI cost of building reports are nonsense and are meaningless for bigger developers who have massive economies of scale IMO. They've being spouting similar figures for the past several years and then Sisk Living comes along and designs and builds a-rated houses for South Dublin county council for c. €180k each back in 2018. All houses and apartments are still what they were in previous decades. They're 4 walls and a roof and nothing has really changed outside the optics of additional USB ports, relatively cheap solar panels, a bit of additional insulation etc. etc. IMO
PropQueries wrote: » In relation to the cost of building a house. Why does the proposed affordable housing bill believe that developers in Co. Tipperary can build and sell new build a-rated homes for €225k, but in Dublin they need to sell them for c. €450k to make a profit?
Marius34 wrote: » I'll give you a hint, try to add value of land, and VAT on final price.
Hubertj wrote: This is a very good article, which proposes viable solutions and isn’t just a rant about what is wrong. I can definitely agree with the points around planning regs etc for Georgian buildings having lived in a few over the years. So much potential north and south city centre
Claw Hammer wrote: » Land is more expensive in Dublin than Tipperary. labour is more expensive in Dublin. Access to sites is generally more difficult requiring more labour. Sites generally need more security in Dublin. It is far easier to build where vehicles of whatever size can come and turn about easily than situations in urban areas where traffic has to be stopped and vehicles can't turn. Anything which is awkward adds to the time and labour costs.
PropQueries wrote: » And who owns or controls most of the large land banks in and around Dublin? I would guess (and, it's only a guess) that it's primarily the funds and the local councils/state. And, Cairn Homes stated last year that the average cost of many of their sites was c. €15k so it's not land/site costs that are the problem IMO
PropQueries wrote: » So, how did Sisk Living manage to design and build a-rated homes for South Dublin county council for c. €180k each back in 2018?
Marius34 wrote: » You asked about developers, where developers provided with free land to build those houses for 450K houses? I don't think so.
PropQueries wrote: » So, let's remove that Cairn Homes stated that they did purchase many of their sites for c €15k. What's the current "market price" for a site with planning for a semi-detached house in Dublin? What's the current "market price" for a site with planning for a semi-detached house in Co. Tipperary? Does it really account for most of that €225k cost difference between building and selling a house in Tipperary compared to Dublin?
PropQueries wrote: » Wouldn't cost the taxpayer anything. I believe (and it's only my belief) that the funds own many of these buildings in the city centre (Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Galway and many other small towns around the country). Slap a 10% derelict property tax (like Washington D.C.) on them and see how imaginative they would get in bringing them to market. I would be of the belief that many have already or are in the process of being refurbished and many will be entering supply in the very near future. If I'm right that the funds do control many of these type of properties around Ireland, they can see which way the wind is blowing and will be looking to exit very shortly IMO In relation to the cost of building a house. Why does the proposed affordable housing bill believe that developers in Co. Tipperary can build and sell new build a-rated homes for €225k, but in Dublin they need to sell them for c. €450k to make a profit? Cairn Homes average selling price per unit in 2020 was c. €350k and Glenveagh's was less (if I'm remembering correctly), so the SCSI cost of building reports are nonsense and are meaningless for bigger developers who have massive economies of scale IMO. They've being spouting similar figures for the past several years and then Sisk Living comes along and designs and builds a-rated houses for South Dublin county council for c. €180k each back in 2018. All houses and apartments are still what they were in previous decades. They're 4 walls and a roof and nothing has really changed outside the optics of additional USB ports, relatively cheap solar panels, a bit of additional insulation etc. etc. IMO
Thus Builders as opposed to developers will deliver homes on state owned land achieving savings of over €100k per unit when compared to the price of purchasing similar units on the open market in areas such as this.
Marius34 wrote: » I don't believe you would find a site for 15K in Dublin. The site for semi-D in Dublin City could vary greatly, from around ~80K to ~500K. I don't know about Tippery, but I'm confident, it's many times cheaper than in Dublin.
Villa05 wrote: » Amazing how solutions are much more palatable when national news media propose them rather than props and schmittel, shame they don't have a pr budget or lobbying powers
PropQueries wrote: » And who controls the "market price" of sites? It's primarily either the council/state/funds IMO. The state can bring the cost of sites in Dublin back to Co. Tipperary prices if they truly wished through a combination of bringing their own vast landbanks into play and through either taxation/regulation measures in relation to the fund owned sites. There is absolutely no shortage of land to build on in Dublin IMO. The short-term magic bullets really are there through managing the inefficient use of existing properties and the land banks/sites in the cities and towns IMO. If this Government doesn't do it, either the next Government will do it or the funds may do it much sooner should they decide to cash in and exit IMO
PropQueries wrote: » All houses and apartments are still what they were in previous decades. They're 4 walls and a roof and nothing has really changed outside the optics of additional USB ports, relatively cheap solar panels, a bit of additional insulation etc. etc. IMO
