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Scottish independence

Faye McAleer

Would you be in support of a politico-economic union and formal international intergovernmental cooperation between the three Gaelic nations, (united) Ireland, (independent) Scotland and the Isle of Man similar to Benelux?

The Benelux cooperation has served as a model for the EU, and is basically an EU lite, comprising a customs union and a parliament as well as shared resources.

This could work between the three Gaelic nations and when we get reunification and the Scottish get independence, I think it is something good that should be created.

What do you think?

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BlitzKrieg

pixelburp wrote: »

So Galloway and Dumfries remains Tory. The entire border still a unionist stronghold then. I mean sure, it makes sense when looking at the history of the location (*side eyes Berwick*) but you'd imagine that might be where resistance or agitation starts against another ref. Heck, to get completely wild, could those areas petition to join England were there a breakaway nation? Berwick 2.0, albeit minus the bloodshed.

Well the border counties in Northern Ireland are traditionally more pro united Ireland. It might boil simply down to geography, though I guess that doesnt explain why the point furthest north keeps voting liberal democrat.

Auldloon

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Well the border counties in Northern Ireland are traditionally more pro united Ireland. It might boil simply down to geography, though I guess that doesnt explain why the point furthest north keeps voting liberal democrat.

That’s down to the popularity of the individual rather than any party loyalty

Sam Russell

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Well the border counties in Northern Ireland are traditionally more pro united Ireland. It might boil simply down to geography, though I guess that doesnt explain why the point furthest north keeps voting liberal democrat.

Jo Grimond.

BlitzKrieg

Sam Russell wrote: »

Jo Grimond.

that is a solid legacy.

Sierra Oscar

It's laughable to watch the BBC coverage regarding the SNP. Trying to make it out that they have somehow lost the election because they haven't got a majority, which they always said would be extremely difficult to achieve considering the Additional Member System is designed to prevent one party getting an overall majority. Such absurd coverage is playing right into the hands of the SNP and the wider nationalist movement.

Despite this it looks like they will increase their number of seats and are within a fraction of an overall majority. Then you have the pro-independence Green's doing well resulting in a clear majority of the new parliament in favour of independence. The national question is very much back on the agenda.

Sam Russell

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It's laughable to watch the BBC coverage regarding the SNP. Trying to make it out that they have somehow lost the election because they haven't got a majority, which they always said would be extremely difficult to achieve considering the Additional Member System is designed to prevent one party getting an overall majority. Such absurd coverage is playing right into the hands of the SNP and the wider nationalist movement.

Despite this it looks like they will increase their number of seats and are within a fraction of an overall majority. Then you have the pro-independence Green's doing resulting in a clear majority of the new parliament in favour of independence. The national question is very much back on the agenda.

Results look like SNP 63 and Greens 9 which gives a majority of 14 for independence. That is a good solid mandate.

BonnieSituation

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It's laughable to watch the BBC coverage regarding the SNP. Trying to make it out that they have somehow lost the election because they haven't got a majority, which they always said would be extremly difficult to achieve considering the Additional Member System is designed to prevent one party getting an overall majority.

Despite this it looks like they will increase their number of seats and are within a fraction of an overall majority. Then you have the pro-independence Green's doing resulting in a clear majority of the new parliament in favour of independence. The national question is very much back on the agenda.

It was never off the agenda though.

Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine MP) just on BBC trying to make out that there's no mandate for a referendum because the SNP didn't win an overall majority. So we can see that this is where the narrative will go.

LuckyLloyd

Great news in Scotland! What a win for independence. Hopefully they have the balls now.

Sierra Oscar

Nicola Sturgeon speaking from Glasgow now. They will be pushing ahead with a referendum in this parliament's term.

BonnieSituation

Scottish Labour are pathetic. Teaming up with Scottish Tories to continue the assault on the intelligence of all those who follow politics in Scotland.

Cosmo Kramer

pixelburp wrote: »

TBH all I know of the border areas is a) there was a Pro14 rugby team (Border Reivers), and b) it's traditionally very unionist. Culturally though, would it swing Scots or North England, to be reductionist? History repeats so I'd spare no confidence independence wouldn't be messy, hence my crazy idea of Scotland starting smaller, England getting a little larger.

Just to answer this, the Borders are very much Scottish, but their position in the border puts them in an unusual position in Scotland. Because of the geography of the country with so many people living in central Scotland and up the east coast, relatively few people actually live on or near the border - there are only three or four border constituencies. But those that do often have links on both sides, many work in places like Carlisle and Berwick, but live in Scotland. The idea of a physical border doesn't suit them, so they oppose it by voting Tory.

The Scottish borders also includes a significant minority of English people who have migrated across the border for various reasons, they also very much lean Tory.

No prospect of redrawing the border though, it will be all or (more likely) nothing.

BlitzKrieg

I'd be curious where they'd land if Yorkshire and most of north england also started talking about independence?

A Dub in Glasgo

Final FPTP constituency seats are in and it is an absolute humping victory for the SNP. The media are using FPTP comparisons with the AMS system in use, any impartial commentator should be stating that if the election was carried out like they do in Westminster then the result is below

Number of seasts: 73
SNP: 62
Tory: 5
Lib Dems: 4
Labour:2

As for the tactical voting from the Labour party voters, this sums it up quite well

https://twitter.com/gwpurnell/status/1390994909277077504

Mr.Nice Guy

It's ludicrous to argue on the one hand it's okay for Labour and the Tories to cooperate in order to stop another referendum, but it's not okay for the SNP and Greens to cooperate in order to bring about another referendum.

The mandate is there. As Sturgeon said, it's now up to Johnson as to whether the UK is a voluntary union of nations or not.

An Claidheamh

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Final FPTP constituency seats are in and it is an absolute humping victory for the SNP. The media are using FPTP comparisons with the AMS system in use, any impartial commentator should be stating that if the election was carried out like they do in Westminster then the result is below

Number of seasts: 73
SNP: 62
Tory: 5
Lib Dems: 4
Labour:2

As for the tactical voting from the Labour party voters, this sums it up quite well

https://twitter.com/gwpurnell/status/1390994909277077504

Anyone know what the popular vote is?

That would be a more accurate indication as to SNP power and who would vote yes in a referendum

Should not really matter what the BBC tell Scottish people, SNP and Holyrood do not serve them

Johnson will not give them a referendum, Scotland needs to grow some

A Dub in Glasgo

Probably spilt right down the middle

EDit:]Here is the constituency total

Capt'n Midnight

Glasgow Election Region Results 2021 Greens miss out on a seat by 913 votes.

Conservative 37027 Two seats
Green Party 36114 One seat
Labour Party 74088 Four seats

Scottish National Party (SNP) got 133917 votes and Zero seats

Mr.Nice Guy

Johnson has sent a letter to Sturgeon, inviting her to join him, the Welsh First Minister, and the First and Deputy Minister of NI, to "a summit meeting to discuss our shared challenges and how we can work together in the coming months and years to overcome them."

Letter had an embargo on it until 10:30pm but BBC Scotland have revealed it early.

https://twitter.com/John_McKee/status/1391083909144891392

https://twitter.com/ChrisGreenNews/status/1391082838125162501

https://twitter.com/severincarrell/status/1391081596208435205

My initial impression is that this is primarily about Johnson trying to kick the independence issue into the long grass.

Professor Moriarty

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Johnson has sent a letter to Sturgeon, inviting her to join him, the Welsh First Minister, and the First and Deputy Minister of NI, to "a summit meeting to discuss our shared challenges and how we can work together in the coming months and years to overcome them."

Letter had an embargo on it until 10:30pm but BBC Scotland have revealed it early.

https://twitter.com/John_McKee/status/1391083909144891392

https://twitter.com/ChrisGreenNews/status/1391082838125162501

https://twitter.com/severincarrell/status/1391081596208435205

My initial impression is that this is primarily about Johnson trying to kick the independence issue into the long grass.

Reading that letter, I wonder is it a parody account. It basically says fcuk your independence, we'll have a chat around the fireside, you'll calm down and we'll be grand.

pixelburp

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Glasgow Election Region Results 2021 Greens miss out on a seat by 913 votes.

Conservative 37027 Two seats
Green Party 36114 One seat
Labour Party 74088 Four seats

Scottish National Party (SNP) got 133917 votes and Zero seats

The final tallies of percentage support across the country, and especially the demographics therein, will tell an interesting picture. Especially insofar as the appetite for another referendum. I'd seen some suggestions the younger cohorts were fading on 2nd ref support but we'll see.

The Scots system does seem precision engineered to sytmy an outright majority. Technically that's not necessarily a bad thing - compromise is an important tool of governance - but in this case one wonders was it made to hold back the possibility of SNP dominance.

Sam Russell

pixelburp wrote: »

The final tallies of percentage support across the country, and especially the demographics therein, will tell an interesting picture. Especially insofar as the appetite for another referendum. I'd seen some suggestions the younger cohorts were fading on 2nd ref support but we'll see.

The Scots system does seem precision engineered to sytmy an outright majority. Technically that's not necessarily a bad thing - compromise is an important tool of governance - but in this case one wonders was it made to hold back the possibility of SNP dominance.

More likely to stymie Labour. Remember Labour were the dominant force in Scotland prior to the IndRef.

pixelburp

Sam Russell wrote: »

More likely to stymie Labour. Remember Labour were the dominant force in Scotland prior to the IndRef.

But at the risk of being too lazy to Google, wasn't Hollyrood a Blairite labour initiative in the first place, presumably then including the election methodology?

Cosmo Kramer

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Glasgow Election Region Results 2021 Greens miss out on a seat by 913 votes.

Conservative 37027 Two seats
Green Party 36114 One seat
Labour Party 74088 Four seats

Scottish National Party (SNP) got 133917 votes and Zero seats

Just on this - a right wing fascist ran in Glasgow and some other regional lists under the name "Independent Green Voice". He was higher up the ballot paper than the green party and polled around 2000 votes in Glasgow.

Almost certainly mostly green voters that put an X in the wrong box and seems to have cost the Greens a second seat in Glasgow.

cameramonkey

pixelburp wrote: »

So Galloway and Dumfries remains Tory. The entire border still a unionist stronghold then. I mean sure, it makes sense when looking at the history of the location (*side eyes Berwick*) but you'd imagine that might be where resistance or agitation starts against another ref. Heck, to get completely wild, could those areas petition to join England were there a breakaway nation? Berwick 2.0, albeit minus the bloodshed.

Partition? That worked well in Ireland.

PommieBast

pixelburp wrote: »

But at the risk of being too lazy to Google, wasn't Hollyrood a Blairite labour initiative in the first place, presumably then including the election methodology?

I doubt it would have got the same cross-party support (everyone except the Conservatives) if it was slated to just use FPTP.

BonnieSituation

pixelburp wrote: »

But at the risk of being too lazy to Google, wasn't Hollyrood a Blairite labour initiative in the first place, presumably then including the election methodology?

The Lib Dems insisted on AMS or something approaching that for devolution support iirc

Enzokk

SNP now on 64 seats, one short of a majority.

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1391109607565766661?s=20

What a disappointment for the SNP this has been...

BonnieSituation

Enzokk wrote: »

SNP now on 64 seats, one short of a majority.

https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1391109607565766661?s=20

What a disappointment for the SNP this has been...

Terrible result

Itssoeasy

pixelburp wrote: »

But at the risk of being too lazy to Google, wasn't Hollyrood a Blairite labour initiative in the first place, presumably then including the election methodology?

Yes, it happened under his watch in 1999(i think).

IRISHSPORTSGUY

https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1391161381546770446