Sam Russell wrote: » You are not alone - Raab, when SoS for Brexit admitted that he had not read the 34 page document while it was central to the on going negotiations.
ThePanjandrum wrote: » Nicola Sturgeon on Andrew Marr today seems to think that Scotland could join the EU without having a hard border with the UK and could retain free trade with it as well. Maybe she needs to ask the EU for their opinion before making these claims in an attempt to achieve independence.
BlitzKrieg wrote: » Under current circumstances if she is willing to swallow a lot of effort on her end she could pull it off. For simply travel she could have Scotland the Common travel agreement with Ireland. That was always a given. For trade yeah she pushes for the same circumstances as Northern Ireland. Which yeah isnt exactly free trade atm, but key difference Scotland can do that Northern Ireland couldnt and puts it border between themselves and the EU. Scotland can put the custom border at its ports and leave the actual land border open. Unlike Brexit and Northern Ireland, Scotland is the one looking for seperation so as long as they were not lazy about it they can set the terms of the border. The issue with Brexit and Northern Ireland has almost entirely fallen on the simple fact that the current British Government is one of the laziests governments in europe, unwilling to do anything unless it has to. A lot of the 'teething issues' with Northern Ireland were teething issues because the British government didnt get off its arse to prepare for most of them. A scottish government willing to work (still a big if) negotiating with the EU itself willing to take on the tasks of getting their ports ready. They have the grounds to argue that they'd like Northern Ireland would be more effective managing the sea ports between Europe and Scotland then trying to enforce a land border. Also what Scotland wants from the EU is not exactly the same as what England wanted. Scotland is looking more for inward investment from the EU and keeping free trade with the UK. so a lot of scotland's trade going to EU would probably be able to handle the custom check at the sea ports. Especially if they actually make an effort at planning them, also unlike england which issue is they left a bunch of eu programmes and needed to provide more extensive paperwork to move their product, Scotland would be signing into them so most of their paperwork for scottish goods would be primarily proving it was produced in scotland. Where it all hinges on *current circumstances* though is in the other direction. At the moment the laziest government in europe is staying true to form and not enforcing any rules on imports into the UK from the EU. So if those circumstances were to continue (unlikely but hey lazy conservative government might surprise me) then there is no issue with free trade from scotland into the UK cause the UK isnt going to be arsed to check anything. So to confirm No border yes with CTA free trade with the UK, yes because UK government too lazy to bother enforcing borders. Free trade with the EU (distinctly not what Sturgeon said, she specified continued free trade with the UK) to a limited extent yes, border checks at ports in scotland to confirm products are scottish. But otherwise yes if scotland was given the same status as Northern Ireland (even if on a limited basis).
peter kern wrote: » my question is why should Scotland get a special status like NI since there is no good Friday agreement to kind of make this a go.
Interesting she talks about remaining in the common travel area though. I thought all new members of the EU have to join the schengen area.
BlitzKrieg wrote: » Required when they meet the criteria, you can still join the EU without meeting the criteria and then later when you do become part of Schengen. Bulgaria Croatia and Romania are technically not part of schengen yet as they've not fully met the criteria but are working towards it.
Aegir wrote: » being in the CTA is very clearly at odds with Schengen though. They can't commit to meet the Schengen criteria and also commit to the CTA.
BlitzKrieg wrote: » Scotland's EU membership of the EU will not happen before the terms of Scotland's future relationship with the UK are locked in place. So the terms of the EU membership will be based on that. If Sturgeon's goal is to keep an open border between Scotland and the UK it will require her to work hard on that withdrawl agreement as that will be what the EU will look at when deciding how to handle Scotland's membership.
Aegir wrote: » indeed. The response Sturgeon gave to Andrew Marr on this, was that the Scottish Government would come up with creative and well thought out solutions to avoid border checkpoints at Gretna and Berwick and ensure the continued seamless flow of goods. It sounded kind of familiar to be honest.
Mr.Nice Guy wrote: » Channel 4 are hosting a debate of Scotland's main party leaders at 7pm on Tuesday. It's being billed as the first time such a debate happened for a UK-wide audience.https://twitter.com/Hayley_Barlow/status/1386727156336709634 One of the questions asked might be on this story from The Guardian:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/26/trident-overseas-or-halted-scotland-independence This seems like a great barganing chip for an independent Scotland.
Peregrinus wrote: » No, it doesn't. It sounds like a compelling argument as to why Westminster should not countenance Scottish independence. And I rather suspect that's the reason it's being advanced just now. It sounds like it, but when you dig into it I don't think it is. The point being made is that, if Faslane ceases to be available, "there is no alternative port immediately available elsewhere in the UK". But they jump rather quickly from that to concluding that the UK "would probably require the help of an allied country or the nuclear deterrent would have to be halted completely". They are missing the approach which (a) is obvious, and (b) was the approach of the Scottish government in 2014. It is that independent Scotland would negotiate for the removal of Trident from Faslane over an agreed timeframe. In other words, it is unlikely that the UK would need alternative facilities in England or Wales to be available immediately. They would need them to be available by the end of the period within which Trident is to be withdrawn from Faslane. And of course that period would be negotiated with an eye to, among other things, how long it would take to prepare alternative facilities in England or Wales.
Aegir wrote: » There is also the question of the Green vote as well. The SNP has never had a majority, they have always been supported by the Greens who want rid of Trident. If the SNP no longer need the Green Party then the future of Faslane may not be as big an issue, or at least not as pressing.
Aegir wrote: » The SNP has never had a majority,
bob mcbob wrote: » Well what is interesting in this article is how it is stated that the base cannot be based in Portsmouth or Devonport due to the close proximity to major population centres. Faslane is 40 miles from the centre of Scotland's largest city.
A Dub in Glasgo wrote: » The electoral system was designed by Westminster to stop one party having an overall majority. Imagine how life in the UK would be if Westminster adopted a similar electoral system?
A Dub in Glasgo wrote: » Anyhow, the SNP got a majority in 2011 and the parliament has a pro-independence majority since
pixelburp wrote: » I'm going to take a wild presumption the Labour & Tories attacked Sturgeon at all junctures.
Third Scottish leaders’ debate: how they performed Alex Massie Wednesday April 28 2021, 1.01am, The TimesPatrick Harvie, Greens 6/10Message The pandemic is actually an “extraordinary opportunity” to reconsider the kind of country we wish to be. Do we wish to be our own country or must we remain shackled to Boris Johnson’s Britain? We cannot separate post-pandemic recovery from the constitutional question, for we need to build a different economy and a different society.Delivery More Catholic than the Pope in terms of his enthusiasm for an immediate post-election dash to independence. Only independence can allow Scotland to unlock its future. Asked what the Greens had achieved on climate change, he talked instead about income tax and the party’s proposals for a wealth tax.Verdict Struggled to get his fair share of speaking time but when he did he did all he could to remind (left-wing) SNP voters that they can use their list vote most effectively by giving it to the Greens, the better to build a pro-independence majority. Since these voters represent his key audience, this was a successful evening for Harvie.Anas Sarwar, Labour 6/10Message Let’s talk about what we can do together. Would you prefer us to work together to end child poverty or spend the next five years arguing about borders and the constitution? Scotland needs a better opposition but also a better government. The Labour Party is on a journey back to relevance and usefulness: come and join me on it.Delivery Is the nice, decent guy schtick wearing thin? Perhaps, a little but Sarwar still did his best to suggest he rises above the partisan wrestling that otherwise dominated a grumpy encounter while still throwing a few sharp elbows. There is no love lost between him and Douglas Ross in the race for second place, and it showed.Verdict Still retains a freshness that makes him stand out; if you have tired of politics in recent years, he may be the man for you. Has at least offered Labour hope there may be better days ahead. His core message that there must be a third way that is neither SNP nor Tory remains a clear one.Nicola Sturgeon, SNP 7/10Message Who chooses who governs Scotland? Who chooses what kind of Scotland we want? Is it the people of Scotland or are the people’s desires at the mercy of, or liable to be thwarted by, Boris Johnson? The constitutional argument is chiefly a question of democracy and democratic legitimacy. We need to choose our own future even if “I’m not planning a referendum immediately”.Delivery Acknowledged, once again, that her government has “not been perfect” but what else would you expect when one hand is tied behind your back? More animated than in previous debates and presented herself as the only serious candidate with a serious plan for the country.Verdict Gave her best performance in this debate. Dominated proceedings, not least by virtue of being the only plausible first minister on stage. Given a relatively easy ride by the moderator but successfully framed the election choice as a decision between her vision for Scotland and Johnson’s ambitions for Britain. The obvious winner.Douglas Ross, Conservatives 4/10Message We need to get rid of an SNP government that has failed Scotland. Our recovery from the pandemic will be at risk if Sturgeon presses ahead with another independence referendum. We should not — wait for it — have another referendum.Delivery Gave the impression of a man struggling to contain his frustration, clashing with Sturgeon and Sarwar. Still a novice at this level and a lack of debating nimbleness showed, not least when he tried to evade the question, “Is the Union voluntary?” rather than answer it persuasively. Failed to put any clear blue water between him and the prime minister, declining to mention he resigned from Johnson’s government on a point of principle.Verdict Another difficult evening as he was forced to defend himself against SNP, Labour and Green attacks. Struggled to say much beyond repeating constitutional talking points. This is a core vote strategy but will it be enough?Willie Rennie, Liberal Democrats 5/10Message Our politics at present is depressing, isn’t it? The debate is “toxic”. We need to move on — so long as moving on does not mean moving closer to another referendum. Voters are right to despair and so they should vote for nice guys like me to pour soothing oil on troubled waters.Delivery Like Harvie, existed on heavily rationed time but he is used to the making of bricks without straw. Stressed that recovering from the pandemic will take at least five years and was, as so often, disappointed with the first minister and incredulous she cannot see the reality he perceives (this prompted a mighty eye-roll from the first minister).Verdict Has been speaking in these events for more than a decade and this experience shows. Always at his strongest when prosecuting a more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger case against the SNP’s record in government but otherwise has relatively little to offer. But that’s OK: he is playing in only a handful of constituencies, and where people like the Lib Dems they really like them. Krishnan Guru-Murthy, Channel 4 presenter 3/10 Presented the election as a proxy referendum on independence in the shadow of Tory “sleaze” at Westminster — a framing that will not have displeased the first minister, Nicola Sturgeon. Much time was wasted introducing the leaders and explaining the electoral system to an audience tuning in from elsewhere in the UK. The presenter also spent the first two thirds of the show amplifying SNP — and Green— talking points and used more time to ask questions about Boris Johnson, the prime minister, than he devoted to queries about Sturgeon’s record in office as first minister. Told Anas Sarwar, the Scottish Labour leader: “I know you want to talk about policy . . . ” and suggested, remarkably, that this was a bad thing. Concluded by suggesting that the evening had been “fascinating if you live in England” and “useful if you live in Scotland” — a verdict both presumptuous and doubly implausible.
Douglas Ross Gave the impression of a man struggling to contain his frustration
View wrote: » A commitment to membership of Schengen, like adoption of the Euro, is mandatory for new EU members.
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