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Charge controller recommend

photosmart

Hi All

Looking for a charge controller recommendation / where to buy. I've a 1200w 24v system and am looking to upgrade from cheap Chinese junk.

Would like to be able to monitor power and battery also

Any recommendations / suppliers?

cheers

p

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markmoto

photosmart wrote: »

Hi All

Looking for a charge controller recommendation / where to buy. I've a 1200w 24v system and am looking to upgrade from cheap Chinese junk.

Would like to be able to monitor power and battery also

Any recommendations / suppliers?

cheers

p

I would recommend victron products, comes with comprehensive Bluetooth app; history etc very reliable

[Deleted User]

What specific gravity do Victron charge a lead battery to?
In terms of reliability do they solder their input fuses on their inverters?
Do their temperature sensors work accurately with live feedback?
Does their hardware run for a decade continuously? What's their product failure rate?
Why are there harmonics on this inverter with no other load?

Which one of these meters would you say is more truthful?

How much of the product's pricetag is marketing and how much is hardware?

Regarding the App...the expression foxes guarding the henhouse comes to mind.

markmoto

I leave you to play with those fancy graphs as I have found exactly what works for me.

I tried number of different mppt and b2b chargers, incl german made and I wasn't 100% happy with the outcomes. Since I installed victron for solar and victron orion for b2b I never look back. Works perfect.

[Deleted User]

Morningstar:

100% Charged

Victron:

90% Charged.

CellVoltageVersusSpecificGravity.png?resize=768%2C392&ssl=1

Haveya ever heard that lead gets sulphated and deteriorates if you don't periodically fully charge it?

Every time I test a Victron product it fails to pass my benchmark.

markmoto

I never tried morningstar but since I start using victron I am 100% satisfied. That's just my opinion and I wont change my mind as I see proper results after all. Not on a paper or online pictures but in real life.

[Deleted User]

Real life, like with hydrometer?
Those aren't on paper results I'm showing you. I spend most of my time developing off-grid systems. I won't touch Victron anymore, they're entry level high-end. People seem to acclaim them as a product of their marketing budget and the bluetooth. The hardware's not very good by standards.
Most of the proponents are those who don't measure or compare their system performance to competitor brands.
They're definitely better than cheap Chinese shyte but they're built down to a price and they don't last very long.

A Victron charger will make a battery last 5 years.
A MorningStar charger will make it last >10 years.

markmoto

are you talking about AGM batteries, GEL or Lifepo4 ? : )

[Deleted User]

All lead variants. Li-ion is a complete waste of time and money. I could go on. I regrettably bought a coupla grand of the lumps. Lead beats them at everything in practical applications except energy density and electric drive.

photosmart

Hi all

Thanks for input -

P

[Deleted User]

I just took a moment to look at a Victron product.

..They're all like this!

How can you supply a 120A continuously rated product on 50A continuously rated cable and not get sued?

I bet it has something to do with the product not being capable of doing 50% rated to jeopardise the installation.

photosmart

Hi there

Thanks for providing such detail - its great to have someone like yourself with genuine knowledge helping people like me (hobby/general interest in solar) to navigate the technical details.

I ended up going with a Victron (100/50 bluesolar) essentially because I got a refund on my Chinese charge controller from Amazon but had to spend the refund there and there was no morningstar product (ts45) available that would deliver to ireland.

One thing I do like about the victron is the ease of reading the information which is useful to me because I have my solar set up as an off grid configuration in my shed powering a couple of fridges etc and I need to monitor the Battery SOC to ensure it doesn't drop too far.

That said if the victron fails - my next SCC will be a morningstar and perhaps this thread will help other newbies to spec their systems from the get go.

P

[Deleted User]

Shucks I shoulda bid on that Italian job. €700 controller went for €110 shipped.

Everyone loves the Victron App.
I reserve judgment on whether it's in any way accurate. I spent a small fortune on blue boxes only fit for the E-waste, I'm reluctant to buy more to find out.

I've a blue charger for sale in the for sale thread if anyone wants it. I used it for two weeks on someone else's recommendation. I might as well have set fire to the notes it cost and fitted a MorningStar soon after.

Victron claim lead is dead (it isn't but they're floggin' chargers that damage batteries through negligence)
They recommend we all give them kilo€ instead for li-ion and "that's better"

markmoto

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Shucks I shoulda bid on that Italian job. €700 controller went for €110 shipped.

Everyone loves the Victron App.
I reserve judgment on whether it's in any way accurate. I spent a small fortune on blue boxes only fit for the E-waste, I'm reluctant to buy more to find out.

I've a blue charger for sale in the for sale thread if anyone wants it. I used it for two weeks on someone else's recommendation. I might as well have set fire to the notes it cost and fitted a MorningStar soon after.

Victron claim lead is dead (it isn't but they're floggin' chargers that damage batteries through negligence)
They recommend we all give them kilo€ instead for li-ion and "that's better"

I know you are not fun of victron and you have made some points in previous posts. And I am not argue but want to mention as a user I have 3 victron products at the moment.

1. Victron Orion B2B 30A charger.
Super awesome and very accurate no complains at all.

2. Solar Charger MPPT 100/30.
Very accurate and notice pushing ~0.5A more than my previous MMPT called TBB Nemo DDX1230

3. victron Smart shunt.

Alternative to BMV monitor. Very impressive Bluetooth app and history.
But Not as accurate as I would expected, some 5-7 AH missing on regular basis. They just released firmware update hopefully it would fix that issue. But even if I knew of that I would buy anyway over all I like it.

[Deleted User]

I'm not arguing just sharing experience.

I run an Albright SW80M magnetic latching contactor for split charge and I can get 80A across that. It cost me £30 + shipping.
I also have a Sterling B2B 120A which does a slightly better job.
I've fitted 120A B2Bs and got less than the contactor which is rather disappointing comparing a €600 product to a £30.
I don't entertain ideas of split charge less than 50A
I'm putting twin 100A linked alternators in my truck and I plan to get 150A at idle from both @ 24v without any boost regulator boxes.

Regarding chargers if it's not charging to specific gravity 1.275 then it's harmful to your battery. Most don't. Victron are certainly better than factory fitments.

The biggest problem with most chargers is the temperature compensation being inaccurate or not present. It has to be remotely sensed and heat sinked to the battery.
Victron moved from measuring the charger temp locally to recently measuring the air temperature around the battery via bluetooth.

The BMV is too small to read, the blue backlight is naff, the backlight controls are way too complicated, the SOC ceiling is patronising.

Their chargers heat derate quickly too.

There is no 100% accurate SOC meter.
Smartgauge is good but 10% lies.
TriMetric is the best I've found in my opinion.
Studer are ok also small.
I haven't tried Xantrex which everyone else clones.
Mastervolt is very poor.

Don't let it be said that I'm picking on Victron...
Mastervolt are shockinly bad for the price.
Sterling Power performance is good, price is excessive and the build quality is extremely low.
ProNautic are good.
Ctek Auto are poor, Ctek Marine are good.
Steca are woeful.
Xantrex are mediocre.
Midnite & Outback are ok.
EP Solar is value for money.

The thing that annoys me about Victron the most is the disparity between the promise and the delivery....

5aa6b5c942e1cc5f6925bc81?width=750&format=jpeg&auto=webp

5aa6b5c942e1cc5f6925bc81?width=750&format=jpeg&auto=webp

....and how when people are buying chargers they are sold on an app more than it's effective capability.
I've never replaced a lead acid battery I bought new that I put on a MorningStar controller.

My oldest is 6 years although I have 10 year olds that I recently adopted and are working perfectly.

There's two important details people never seem to mention when recommending chargers.
One is specific gravity attained...this is the most accurate test.
The other is the effective capacity of the battery after one round trip compared to a control (from specific gravity 1.275)

I think most people are reviewing the ease of install, features and marketing.

Personally I don't think installations ought to be interactive with a phone. Phones break, get lost, aren't waterproof mostly, batteries run out, security issues, they're pretty cumbersome interfaces, they're expensive in terms of liability etc..

markmoto

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

The BMV is too small to read, the blue backlight is naff, the backlight controls are way too complicated, the SOC ceiling is patronising.

I guess victron trying to replace BMV with smart shunt solution.

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I don't entertain ideas of split charge less than 50A

I think 30A split charger idea not to overburn alternators see test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug

[Deleted User]

markmoto wrote: »

I guess victron trying to replace BMV with smart shunt solution.

That would make it cheaper to manufacture. Is it the same price as the BMV?

markmoto wrote: »

I think 30A split charger idea not to overburn alternators see test

That's this new thing the hilarious irony of promoting li-ion that due to the charge acceptance rate and comparative voltage they very easily force the alternators to full field and hold them there.

So we're first sold batteries with a high charge acceptance (if they are maintained at 10°C > 30°C) and then sold expensive boxes to limit the charge power and expensive chargers that derate in the cold to stop the battery igniting.

How do we stop alternators melting? Make it Sh1t!....spare me!

Get a decent Bosch alternator that can withstand 120°C case temperature.
Get an external temperature proportional regulator or a 50Ω potentiometer.
Water cool your alternator.
Get twin alternators.
Don't waste your money on silly expensive batteries and then derate the system to use them.

Why are the comments turned off on the Victron Channel?
Most alternators are air cooled by a driving headwind proportional to the speed you are doing.

30A...psah!

Li-ion...charges faster...more efficient! Needs a system derating....and battery heaters...and chillers...half the weight...4 times the price...same life expectancy...has a memory effect...damaged by PWM solar controllers....requires a BMS...BMS often damaged when you plug in an inverter...damaged by float charging....no off the shelf suitable chargers...best stored empty...does not like being held at high SOCs...makes your chargers derate according to SOC and temperature....:rolleyes:

markmoto

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

That would make it cheaper to manufacture. Is it the same price as the BMV?

Paid about 130e, not cheap but from chinese one is huge uplift to my system. : )

[Deleted User]

They do pay for themselves several times over in their lifetime in better system management due to feedback to the user.

The BMV was about the same cost so with the "Smart"shunt which is a €30 brass resistor with a €20 circuit board. Your phone is the processing power and display.

So they've shortchanged you a tactile hard mountable display with programmable relay contacts. They're improving their marketing with your ever uploading system data and charged you the same as the predecessor unit.

They're good at marketing alright.

[Deleted User]

markmoto wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug

That burned out the rectifier not the coil Victron....good journalism...

....seeing as I'm correcting their homework; it's not accepting more charge because the internal resistance is lower, because it's nigh the same internal resistance as lead. It's accepting more charge because it's fully charged at 13.6V which is signalling to a lead acid designed alternator regulator to open the field because that's an extremely low SOC for a lead battery under charge.

The measured efficiency difference between li-ion and lead is 2% without thermal management on the li-ion and below Specific Gravity 1.27 for the lead

markmoto

if I break price of 130e

unit cost 110
postage 20
- 23%vat = 102e

- commercial interest, wholesale postage, some fees...

of the manufacturer table should be ~ 70e per shunt

markmoto

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

That burned out the rectifier not the coil Victron....good journalism...

rectifier diodes fail of overheating but I think that video for conventional alternators, smart alternators would work different. See second part of video for another alternator test, worked fine.

[Deleted User]

Shunts are €30 retail...that's compounded markup.

Exactly my point on the rectifier. Get a better alternator. It's biased representation aka propaganda aka marketing.
They're either dumbing it down for us simpletons to understand or can't tell the difference themselves...I dunno which is worse.

photosmart

If I understand correctly (not very knowledgeable about any of this) the morningstar SCC charge more accurately and this extends the life of battery. What about depth of discharge vs this variable? I'm running 4 halfords leisure batteries (95ah) the "A" rated ones and am trying to keep the DOD to about 60%.

It'll be interesting to see how long they last (first yr had EPEVER controller and now the victron).

[Deleted User]

You know that thing they say that you have to charge a lead-acid battery to 100% every week to reverse potentially harmful chemistry?

Well due to this efficiency curve,

That's extremely hard to do. So most manufacturers don't bother because only anoraks like me test them and notice. Everyone else replaces their battery every coupla years and thinks that's normal.

1.265 is what most expensive chargers will attain.
If it weighs more that 1kg and came with the camper coach build 1.24 might be the best you can hope for.

It also displays the non-linearity to this 80% efficiency claim that people use to promote li-ion that is in practical applications irrelevent.

MorningStar are the only charger I have ever found to break through the inefficiency belt and charge to 100% SOC or specific gravity 1.28.
Even Studer can't do it.

The upshot of which is I run a charge fully once a month regime and 60% DOD.

You can drop lead-acid to 20% SOC / 80% DOD and it'll cost about the same. Double the energy half the cycles.
...but first you derate 10% for climate, 10% for age, 10% for your charger only going to 90%, 10% for the manufacturer over-rating said battery, and 10% for overhead because less than 20% SOC is extremely harmful.

The difference between the high-end chargers and the rest isn't power, it's partially energy but mostly reliability and battery longevity.

...and accurate, live feedback, remotely sensed heatsinked temperature sensing. Seriously that's important. Temp sensing is where most falter first.

You know how to get better C-rates and higher capacity from lead than lithium for a fraction of the cost?
Get flooded golf cart batteries, dial up the chargers to 14.8V + temp comp, now your electrolyte is coolant so install hydrocaps...

Maintenance Shedule: You put one end of the tube in a bottle of water, thuther onto the battery quick connect hose and squeeze it 5 times twice a year.

Presto

markmoto

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

You know that thing they say that you have to charge a lead-acid battery to 100% every week to reverse potentially harmful chemistry?
That's extremely hard to do. So most manufacturers don't bother because only anoraks like me test them and notice. Everyone else replaces their battery every coupla years and thinks that's normal.

That would be an advantage for lithium lifepo4 batteries not require charge to 100%. : )
On a build your self basis, Lithium cells grade A with bms Bluetooth monitor 270AH (usable ~ 250AH ) can be done for less than 700e

Providing that AGM discharge shouldn't be below 50% max. we would need 500AH AGM battery bank to compete with lifepo4. + More weight and space has to be allocated.

Also higher discharge rates wouldn't matter much for lifepo4 as it would for AGM.
So with lifepo4 I can opt out of gas and run induction cooktop, microwave, laptop, tv, all at the same time worry free : )

photosmart

Loving the anorak battery stuff - its been a serious learning curve since I installed my system last year but that was the real point of it - best way to learn is to do and make mistakes.

Again thanks for input

[Deleted User]

markmoto wrote: »

That would be an advantage for lithium lifepo4 batteries not require charge to 100%. : )

LiFePO4 has a memory effect you do need to charge them to 100% or you'll get ever diminishing returns on capacity. You won't find an LFP that doesn't because plotting a 20% - 80% usable aperature is so difficult with a flatline holding voltage, the short-lived outtov box performance is good for credibility until it isn't and the implementation of cheap parasitic passive balancers require it or they are not balancing but still acting as permaloads. You can't turn most BMS off either. So if you leave a vessel unattended you have to ensure you don't leave it charged, don't leave it charging, don't leave it empty and make sure you charge it before the BMS destroys it.

Any overcharge whatsoever is harmful often terminally so...in contrast look at the lead efficiency graph and explain why I ought to be concerned about overcharging lead..is it even possible with a modicum of regulation? Every time the sun rises on your solar panel with a charged LFP battery it's doing permanent damage. They do not like float charging or being held in absorption/float for load compensation. So they're a terrible choice for solar applications.
In fact, any application where you rely on a generator to supply power instead of a battery...ie. most of them.

Mains chargers, wind and alternators are a problem too because they'll hold a float.

Then there's temperature issues. The can't be charged in the cold. They range from being permanently damaged if charged below 10°C at a high rate to outright self-combusting if charged below 0°C.

They are exothermic, using them releases heat. If they get above 30°C they are being damaged and they will do this with heavy sustained loads and charging.

In lieu of all these factors and more, people are implementing stringent measures to limit charge and discharge to rates far below lead-acid's capability.

People are adding active thermal management with a parasitic loss far in excess of the comparative inefficiency of lead-acid.

Then there's the cost. You can buy 4 times the capacity of lead-acid than you can of LFP including BMS. This means you have greater range and reserve with Lead-acid and equal charge and discharge rates except lead -acid doesn't derate charging and loads.

markmoto wrote: »

On a build your self basis, Lithium cells grade A with bms Bluetooth monitor 270AH (usable ~ 250AH ) can be done for less than 700e

How many fully working reliable systems have you built for that price?

markmoto wrote: »

Providing that AGM discharge shouldn't be below 50% max.

80% and AGM are extremely expensive anemic batteries with the exception of oasis firefly that are extremely expensive. Flooded golf carts are twice as good.

markmoto wrote: »

we would need 500AH AGM battery bank to compete with lifepo4. + More weight and space has to be allocated.

Lead acid you can cycle 100% to 20%
LFP ideally 80% to 20% with periodic memory releasing cycles to 100%.

markmoto wrote: »

Also higher discharge rates wouldn't matter much for lifepo4 as it would for AGM.

How so? You can get three times the lead for the same price as lithium. So you can charge/discharge a 600Ah Lead at 100A, or a 200Ah LFP at 100A. Which is higher?

markmoto wrote: »

So with lifepo4 I can opt out of gas and run induction cooktop, microwave, laptop, tv, all at the same time worry free : )

Why can't you do that with lead?

photosmart

Query regarding Golf cart batteries - how are they twice as good as AGM? - I went for AGM after a quick look at prices per amp hour etc and some amateur estimations / research

I have 4 12v 95AH Halfords batteries which equates to roughly 4.5 kwh which allows my roughly 2.25 if I discharge to 50%

Total KWH KWH Used
4.5 0.45 90%DOD
4.5 0.90 80%DOD
4.5 1.35 70%DOD
4.5 1.80 60%DOD
4.5 2.25 50%DOD

Of course my batteries may not last as long given the information you've been posting

[Deleted User]

Double the cycles, double the life expectancy, half the price, you can drive them like bejaysus because the electrolyte is a replaceable consumable aka an evaporative coolant.

Oasis fireflies are the fulfilled promise of LFP marketing, delivered in a lead format.

If you want the best then look for OPzS tubular lead. 2V cells. Best value by the ton.

Did I mention it takes me two weeks to program an LFP charge algorithm on an installation?

Here's a guy smarter than I am and more dedicated to LFP technology...even he's struggling to do it. The man built a sonar anti-foul and the battery management is taking years to complete.

AGM was the expensive better thing marketing loved to push before li-ion came along. Same shovel different sh1*.

photosmart

That's another consideration - ability of the user to actually set up and manage the system / knowledge barriers to entry. I don't have the smarts / time to learn to actually program or set up flooded lead acid batteries (I think:pac:)

The AGM choice was probably suboptimal but simples

P