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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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eastwest

Decades wrote: »

Heartening to hear West on Track speaking on MWR radio about the Western Transport Corridor over the last few days, highlighting the need for greeways in all the towns along the route and a need for balance in investment between Dublin and the West.

If you want a perfect lesson on when not to go on radio, the interview with the WOT spokesman has got to be it.
In a hole/stop digging.

Sam Russell

Captain Lugger wrote: »

That reminds me of the received wisdom in the eighties that the country would never expand beyond a population of three million and that decline and associated emigration was endemic. Hence wasteful land use and a transportation policy that assumed chucking roads at everything would be sufficient to manage or at least stabilise decline.

Well, if the hinterland between Tuam and Athenry increases to a level that a railway is needed, then it should be built. However, there are many other areas in Ireland that would still be ahead of it.

The eighties was thirty to forty years ago.

Captain Lugger

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would take the opposite view. Rail is not just public transport, but mass public transport - population concentration is vital. The Dublin and Cork are the only areas in Ireland that warrant further investment in new railway lines, and even at that Dublin is the only real contender.

The Covid bill is going to have to be paid. Infrastructure funding needs to be prioritised, and rail expenditure needs to go towards Metrolink, Dart Expansion +, and the retention of the Dublin Wexford and Dublin Waterford lines. The dual tracking of the Limerick to Limerick Junction, and Galway to Athenry are worthy investments.

Any existing lines under pressure needs to be funded to retain them, and that includes Ennis to Athenry, before any further funds are invested in lost causes, and Athenry to Tuam is certainly in that category.

That reminds me of the received wisdom in the eighties that the country would never expand beyond a population of three million and that decline and associated emigration was endemic. Hence wasteful land use and a transportation policy that assumed chucking roads at everything would be sufficient to manage or at least stabilise decline.

Sam Russell

end of the road wrote: »

the world has moved on since that program was filmed, it's ultimately an irrelevance now.
the greater need for rail to play a bigger roll in the movement of the country means that the western railway corridor phase 2 at least can no longer be dismissed.

I would take the opposite view. Rail is not just public transport, but mass public transport - population concentration is vital. The Dublin and Cork are the only areas in Ireland that warrant further investment in new railway lines, and even at that Dublin is the only real contender.

The Covid bill is going to have to be paid. Infrastructure funding needs to be prioritised, and rail expenditure needs to go towards Metrolink, Dart Expansion +, and the retention of the Dublin Wexford and Dublin Waterford lines. The dual tracking of the Limerick to Limerick Junction, and Galway to Athenry are worthy investments.

Any existing lines under pressure needs to be funded to retain them, and that includes Ennis to Athenry, before any further funds are invested in lost causes, and Athenry to Tuam is certainly in that category.

end of the road

mayo.mick wrote: »

the world has moved on since that program was filmed, it's ultimately an irrelevance now.
the greater need for rail to play a bigger roll in the movement of the country means that the western railway corridor phase 2 at least can no longer be dismissed.

mayo.mick

Decades

Heartening to hear West on Track speaking on MWR radio about the Western Transport Corridor over the last few days, highlighting the need for greeways in all the towns along the route and a need for balance in investment between Dublin and the West.

eastwest

It's a lot of people, no matter how you look at it.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2021/04/07/1000-submissions-in-support-of-east-mayo-greenway/

MayoForSam

Anyone else catch our former great leader Enda on RTE1 last night on 'Iarnrod Enda' (although my EPG had it down as 'Iarnrod Edna'

)?

He was down for a few days travelling along the Waterford-Dungarvan greenway and despite Enda channeling Alan Partridge and displaying the worst lockdown haircut yet (according to the Irish Times), it was quiet enjoyable and harmless enough. It did a nice job of portraying the excellent job they're done down there to promote tourism and also to provide an amenity for locals.

Next week he'll be over in Achill and Westport on the Great Western Greenway (no doubt Mr. Ring will show up at some stage). I somehow doubt Enda will make an appearance in the east of Co. Mayo on the WRC, despite the fact the program is meant to look at not just existing greenways but potential greenways along disused rail lines, but you never know.

It will definitely make people think more about the benefits of greenways though.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

Given the request by the DTTAS to Mayo County Council to refer to the closed railway route through that county as the 'Western Transport Corridor, maybe we should do the same with the title of this thread?
After all, if the policy-making and funding authority for pretty much any development on this land prefers to recognise the reality that there are more transport options than trains, maybe we should respect that reality?

Just for the doubters here are the links to those two submissions from Irish Rail and DOT.

Direct link to submission to Mayo county council from Irish Rail which clearly identifies route as potential greenway route.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-696

Direct link to Department of Transport submission to Mayo County Council in which the DOT redefines the route previously known as the Western Rail Corridor as a “Transport Corridor” rather than solely as a railway line.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-1027

Who knows MCC might actually listen this time around

eastwest

Given the request by the DTTAS to Mayo County Council to refer to the closed railway route through that county as the 'Western Transport Corridor, maybe we should do the same with the title of this thread?
After all, if the policy-making and funding authority for pretty much any development on this land prefers to recognise the reality that there are more transport options than trains, maybe we should respect that reality?

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

It's much more than that. Not only has the Department no problem with a greenway, they have told Mayo County Council in no uncertain terms that they need to re-balance greenway development by investing in the east of the county, and they have specifically pointed out where that investment must be made.
If Mayo wants greenway funding of any kind, they have to target it at the western transport corridor.

Looks like MCC have a lot of re writing to do to accommodate

the "Transport Corridor" rather than solely as a railway line in the goals laid out in the previous paragraph.

Its looking like there could be 1,000 "votes" for a greenway on the county plan, amazing expression of public opinion.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

The department has no problem with a greenway.

It's much more than that. Not only has the Department no problem with a greenway, they have told Mayo County Council in no uncertain terms that they need to re-balance greenway development by investing in the east of the county, and they have specifically pointed out where that investment must be made.
If Mayo wants greenway funding of any kind, they have to target it at the western transport corridor.

westtip

ezstreet5 wrote: »

group them as such-basically as simplistic 'votes.' .

Votes yep, interesting concept in a democratic process. Nearly a thousand East Mayo votes asking for a greenway and the cllrs can see every person who voted as it is not a secret ballot. This voting idea might catch on.

westtip

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

I was thinking that would be the case. I know they have to consider them but imagine having to review each and every copy and paste submission sent in because one person has the time to put in the effort in and the rest don't even have to pay a stamp.

I think you will find in East Mayo its a team of people making the effort to motivate their fellow citizens to become active not just "one person", I know for a fact that this particular one person has not been to Swinford, KM, Charlestown or Claremorris in the past 3 month, Duhhh.....I wonder why that is. The simple facts are: Irish Rail has no problem with the greenway, The department has no problem with a greenway, nearly 1,000 people in East Mayo have asked for a greenway, even the blady school children are asking for it now. I don't know what more to say. Perhaps the greenway campaign is just better at community grassroots marketing, or perhap no one in East Mayo takes a blind bit of notice of West on Track anymore apart from a few cllrs on the intercounty committee.

eastwest

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I am genuinely not scoffing. It's just that with any public participation process, the receivers are acutely aware of duplicative submissions, and group them as such-basically as simplistic 'votes.' I don't doubt our discount the fact that everyone who submitted a postcard honestly believes that the line should be converted to a greenway, based on their own level of knowledge. I would question whether they were goaded to that belief, or whether they fully considered the benefits of a less sexy, but far more utilitarian railway serving their community.

Most people are well aware that the wrc, particularly North of Claremorris, is not part of any railway plan by anybody except a rapidly dwindling rail lobby. Of course people would like a railway if there was one going, but they understand the reality that it's not going to happen. The rail reports into the southern section just confirmed that view.
The upswelling of local support, in the now visible form of the huge numbers who took the trouble to fill in and post postcards, and the groups and individuals who made online and postal submissions, shows public frustration with the councillors who persist in blocking all other interim options for this public asset. They see all the money going to West Mayo and nothing coming to their towns, and they have firmly, politely and emphatically asked for that to change.
Clearly, given the submissions by both bodies, Irish Rail and DTTAS agree with them. Furthermore, the DTTAS submission clearly marks the cards of Mayo County Council. The imbalance in amenity funding between East and West is noted by the funding department. I'd say they'll ignore that little hint at their peril.

ShaneC1600

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I looked at a lot of the "submissions" and they were just postcards saying, "I want a greenway." But there was no substance or content or anything. Just postcards.

I was thinking that would be the case. I know they have to consider them but imagine having to review each and every copy and paste submission sent in because one person has the time to put in the effort in and the rest don't even have to pay a stamp.

eastwest

Deleted User wrote: »

Why complicate it, people want a greenway, its simple really

Sure they only think they do. What would ordinary people know about what they want?
'Them that knows' know better.
And the department, sure what would they know? They only give out the money.
And Irish Rail? Don't get me started.

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

Scoff as you may the front of the postcard was written with 4 very deliberate points of discussion, which by the way the planners are obliged to consider. There is quite reasoned argument substance and content written on the front of those cards, and People also made short comment on the back. I don't see the words "I want a greenway" on the front of the cards, so when you find them on the front of the cards please do come back to me. Making these submissions is all part of democratic process, people taking the time and effort to take part; take a close look at the submission from the department of transport, go read what it says.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-1027/observation/dept-transport-submission#attachments

Read it then come back with more precious comments.

I am genuinely not scoffing. It's just that with any public participation process, the receivers are acutely aware of duplicative submissions, and group them as such-basically as simplistic 'votes.' I don't doubt our discount the fact that everyone who submitted a postcard honestly believes that the line should be converted to a greenway, based on their own level of knowledge. I would question whether they were goaded to that belief, or whether they fully considered the benefits of a less sexy, but far more utilitarian railway serving their community.

[Deleted User]

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I looked at a lot of the "submissions" and they were just postcards saying, "I want a greenway." But there was no substance or content or anything. Just postcards.

Why complicate it, people want a greenway, its simple really

eastwest

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I looked at a lot of the "submissions" and they were just postcards saying, "I want a greenway." But there was no substance or content or anything. Just postcards.

Yes, just people saying what they wanted to see done with the route. So simplistic.
How dare they! Don't they understand that their elders and betters know better?

westtip

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I looked at a lot of the "submissions" and they were just postcards saying, "I want a greenway." But there was no substance or content or anything. Just postcards.

Scoff as you may the front of the postcard was written with 4 very deliberate points of discussion, which by the way the planners are obliged to consider. There is quite reasoned argument substance and content written on the front of those cards, and People also made short comment on the back. I don't see the words "I want a greenway" on the front of the cards, so when you find them on the front of the cards please do come back to me. Making these submissions is all part of democratic process, people taking the time and effort to take part; take a close look at the submission from the department of transport, go read what it says.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-1027/observation/dept-transport-submission#attachments

Read it then come back with more precious comments about "submissions", perhaps you should have written to the department asking them to defend the WRC against the evils of a greenway and to make a submission to MCC on the subject, maybe someone wrote to the minister asking him to intervene, oh as if!

ezstreet5

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Would the 1000 submissions include the pre printed free postcards which were handed out on the side of the road?

I looked at a lot of the "submissions" and they were just postcards saying, "I want a greenway." But there was no substance or content or anything. Just postcards.

eastwest

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Would the 1000 submissions include the pre printed free postcards which were handed out on the side of the road?

The ones individually signed, stamped and posted by concerned citizens?
Probably.
They also included one from the department of transport that strongly advised mayo county council to utilise the route as a greenway. Among others.

ShaneC1600

Would the 1000 submissions include the pre printed free postcards which were handed out on the side of the road?

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

looks like they might hit a thousand submissions demanding a greenway this time around.

That's a phenomenal response from the community, I'd almost say 'unprecedented.'
Has any CDP anywhere ever attracted this volume of submissions? Certainly it will be a record number for Mayo, I would say.
Although I doubt the Council will pay any attention. The submissions process is largely seen as a box-ticking exercise in democratic tokenism. They don't mind letting the common people let off steam, but they rarely depart from a pre-agreed agenda when it comes to the CDP. Didn't they completely ignore almost 300 submissions last time around on this topic, and get away with it? They know there's no kind of penalty to pay for doing the same thing again.
If they want change in East Mayo, the best way to get it is through the ballot box, by running their own candidates in a very strategic way.

mayo.mick

Greaney wrote: »

Was there an official 'call' for greenway submissions from Mayo County Council?

Mayo Co Co *Official* call for submissions.

#HaveYourSay

https://twitter.com/MayoDotIE/status/1370031821736542210

Greaney

westtip wrote: »

looks like they might hit a thousand submissions demanding a greenway this time around

Was there an official 'call' for greenway submissions from Mayo County Council?

westtip

It is going to be interesting to see the response of Mayo coco to the submissions they have received on the county plan this time around, looks like they might hit a thousand submissions demanding a greenway this time around, nearly all of them from the East Mayo Towns that the greenway will link......Let's see their response this time around.

Captain Lugger

eastwest wrote: »

I see the rail lobby has made their submission to the Mayo County Development Plan

Reads like the writer(s) of that well-known FB page, West-on-Crack. A bit like farting in a crowded room and shouting out, “Joe! Ya smelly bastid! I toul ye to ease back on the Guinness”. Everyone then knows who really dealt it...