Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

I was thinking that would be the case. I know they have to consider them but imagine having to review each and every copy and paste submission sent in because one person has the time to put in the effort in and the rest don't even have to pay a stamp.

I think you will find in East Mayo its a team of people making the effort to motivate their fellow citizens to become active not just "one person", I know for a fact that this particular one person has not been to Swinford, KM, Charlestown or Claremorris in the past 3 month, Duhhh.....I wonder why that is. The simple facts are: Irish Rail has no problem with the greenway, The department has no problem with a greenway, nearly 1,000 people in East Mayo have asked for a greenway, even the blady school children are asking for it now. I don't know what more to say. Perhaps the greenway campaign is just better at community grassroots marketing, or perhap no one in East Mayo takes a blind bit of notice of West on Track anymore apart from a few cllrs on the intercounty committee.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

group them as such-basically as simplistic 'votes.' .

Votes yep, interesting concept in a democratic process. Nearly a thousand East Mayo votes asking for a greenway and the cllrs can see every person who voted as it is not a secret ballot. This voting idea might catch on.

westtip wrote: »

The department has no problem with a greenway.

It's much more than that. Not only has the Department no problem with a greenway, they have told Mayo County Council in no uncertain terms that they need to re-balance greenway development by investing in the east of the county, and they have specifically pointed out where that investment must be made.
If Mayo wants greenway funding of any kind, they have to target it at the western transport corridor.

eastwest wrote: »

It's much more than that. Not only has the Department no problem with a greenway, they have told Mayo County Council in no uncertain terms that they need to re-balance greenway development by investing in the east of the county, and they have specifically pointed out where that investment must be made.
If Mayo wants greenway funding of any kind, they have to target it at the western transport corridor.

Looks like MCC have a lot of re writing to do to accommodate

the "Transport Corridor" rather than solely as a railway line in the goals laid out in the previous paragraph.

Its looking like there could be 1,000 "votes" for a greenway on the county plan, amazing expression of public opinion.

Given the request by the DTTAS to Mayo County Council to refer to the closed railway route through that county as the 'Western Transport Corridor, maybe we should do the same with the title of this thread?
After all, if the policy-making and funding authority for pretty much any development on this land prefers to recognise the reality that there are more transport options than trains, maybe we should respect that reality?

eastwest wrote: »

Given the request by the DTTAS to Mayo County Council to refer to the closed railway route through that county as the 'Western Transport Corridor, maybe we should do the same with the title of this thread?
After all, if the policy-making and funding authority for pretty much any development on this land prefers to recognise the reality that there are more transport options than trains, maybe we should respect that reality?

Just for the doubters here are the links to those two submissions from Irish Rail and DOT.

Direct link to submission to Mayo county council from Irish Rail which clearly identifies route as potential greenway route.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-696

Direct link to Department of Transport submission to Mayo County Council in which the DOT redefines the route previously known as the Western Rail Corridor as a “Transport Corridor” rather than solely as a railway line.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-1027

Who knows MCC might actually listen this time around

MayoForSam

Anyone else catch our former great leader Enda on RTE1 last night on 'Iarnrod Enda' (although my EPG had it down as 'Iarnrod Edna'

)?

He was down for a few days travelling along the Waterford-Dungarvan greenway and despite Enda channeling Alan Partridge and displaying the worst lockdown haircut yet (according to the Irish Times), it was quiet enjoyable and harmless enough. It did a nice job of portraying the excellent job they're done down there to promote tourism and also to provide an amenity for locals.

Next week he'll be over in Achill and Westport on the Great Western Greenway (no doubt Mr. Ring will show up at some stage). I somehow doubt Enda will make an appearance in the east of Co. Mayo on the WRC, despite the fact the program is meant to look at not just existing greenways but potential greenways along disused rail lines, but you never know.

It will definitely make people think more about the benefits of greenways though.

It's a lot of people, no matter how you look at it.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2021/04/07/1000-submissions-in-support-of-east-mayo-greenway/

Decades

Heartening to hear West on Track speaking on MWR radio about the Western Transport Corridor over the last few days, highlighting the need for greeways in all the towns along the route and a need for balance in investment between Dublin and the West.

mayo.mick

end of the road

mayo.mick wrote: »

the world has moved on since that program was filmed, it's ultimately an irrelevance now.
the greater need for rail to play a bigger roll in the movement of the country means that the western railway corridor phase 2 at least can no longer be dismissed.

end of the road wrote: »

the world has moved on since that program was filmed, it's ultimately an irrelevance now.
the greater need for rail to play a bigger roll in the movement of the country means that the western railway corridor phase 2 at least can no longer be dismissed.

I would take the opposite view. Rail is not just public transport, but mass public transport - population concentration is vital. The Dublin and Cork are the only areas in Ireland that warrant further investment in new railway lines, and even at that Dublin is the only real contender.

The Covid bill is going to have to be paid. Infrastructure funding needs to be prioritised, and rail expenditure needs to go towards Metrolink, Dart Expansion +, and the retention of the Dublin Wexford and Dublin Waterford lines. The dual tracking of the Limerick to Limerick Junction, and Galway to Athenry are worthy investments.

Any existing lines under pressure needs to be funded to retain them, and that includes Ennis to Athenry, before any further funds are invested in lost causes, and Athenry to Tuam is certainly in that category.

Captain Lugger

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would take the opposite view. Rail is not just public transport, but mass public transport - population concentration is vital. The Dublin and Cork are the only areas in Ireland that warrant further investment in new railway lines, and even at that Dublin is the only real contender.

The Covid bill is going to have to be paid. Infrastructure funding needs to be prioritised, and rail expenditure needs to go towards Metrolink, Dart Expansion +, and the retention of the Dublin Wexford and Dublin Waterford lines. The dual tracking of the Limerick to Limerick Junction, and Galway to Athenry are worthy investments.

Any existing lines under pressure needs to be funded to retain them, and that includes Ennis to Athenry, before any further funds are invested in lost causes, and Athenry to Tuam is certainly in that category.

That reminds me of the received wisdom in the eighties that the country would never expand beyond a population of three million and that decline and associated emigration was endemic. Hence wasteful land use and a transportation policy that assumed chucking roads at everything would be sufficient to manage or at least stabilise decline.

Captain Lugger wrote: »

That reminds me of the received wisdom in the eighties that the country would never expand beyond a population of three million and that decline and associated emigration was endemic. Hence wasteful land use and a transportation policy that assumed chucking roads at everything would be sufficient to manage or at least stabilise decline.

Well, if the hinterland between Tuam and Athenry increases to a level that a railway is needed, then it should be built. However, there are many other areas in Ireland that would still be ahead of it.

The eighties was thirty to forty years ago.

Decades wrote: »

Heartening to hear West on Track speaking on MWR radio about the Western Transport Corridor over the last few days, highlighting the need for greeways in all the towns along the route and a need for balance in investment between Dublin and the West.

If you want a perfect lesson on when not to go on radio, the interview with the WOT spokesman has got to be it.
In a hole/stop digging.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, if the hinterland between Tuam and Athenry increases to a level that a railway is needed, then it should be built. However, there are many other areas in Ireland that would still be ahead of it.

The eighties was thirty to forty years ago.

The entire rulebook will have to be rewritten given the Zoom revolution and the working from home initiatives.
The fundamental error in the rail lobby thinking in respect of the western transport corridor is that they hark back all the time. Back to dirty industries like Asahi, projects that will never be allowed again. Back to manufacturing of products that will never be built in Ireland because of scale and globalisation. Back to when we exported all our raw materials for others to process. Back to when nobody had a car, when the roads were so bad that they couldn't sustain a decent bus service. And back to when the only way was out, on a train.
The notion of exports going out on a fibre optic cable is lost on them. As is the concept of repopulating rural areas with people who can work once they have connectivity, and who will stay once the quality of life issues attract them back. Things like surfing, or mountain biking, or greenways.
But as we've seen, there is no persuading the small coterie of groupthinkers in county councils that we are living in the twenty first century. They just don't understand.
Instead, they make claims to the effect that 1,000 freight trains a year leave Mayo (the actual figure is just over a third of that). Or claims that west on track made a submission to the Mayo Draft county Development plan explaining how it will all work if some magic money appears to build a fantasy railway. (If they did, I can't find it).

ShaneC1600

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would take the opposite view. Rail is not just public transport, but mass public transport - population concentration is vital. The Dublin and Cork are the only areas in Ireland that warrant further investment in new railway lines, and even at that Dublin is the only real contender.

The Covid bill is going to have to be paid. Infrastructure funding needs to be prioritised, and rail expenditure needs to go towards Metrolink, Dart Expansion +, and the retention of the Dublin Wexford and Dublin Waterford lines. The dual tracking of the Limerick to Limerick Junction, and Galway to Athenry are worthy investments.

Any existing lines under pressure needs to be funded to retain them, and that includes Ennis to Athenry, before any further funds are invested in lost causes, and Athenry to Tuam is certainly in that category.

What is your opinion on the Athenry to Tuam motorway?

AngryLips

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would take the opposite view. Rail is not just public transport, but mass public transport - population concentration is vital. The Dublin and Cork are the only areas in Ireland that warrant further investment in new railway lines, and even at that Dublin is the only real contender.

This ignores the future development plans for the country and carbon emission targets that the Government has committed to. WRC probably isn't the solution, but to say that rail has no place outside Dublin and Cork is a very regressive view of how the country should develop in future.

Losty Dublin

These few works ultimately sums the Greenway argument. It's all about us and only us.

eastwest wrote: »

Things like surfing, or mountain biking, or greenways.

T'would remind you of somebody....

?s=fatherted&e=S02E09&i=S02E09-L9ktXrpc&t1=Greenway%20kills%20Railway&t2=I%20had%20my%20fun%20and%20that%27s%20all%20that%20matters

?s=fatherted&e=S02E09&i=S02E09-L9ktXrpc&t1=Greenway%20kills%20Railway&t2=I%20had%20my%20fun%20and%20that%27s%20all%20that%20matters

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

What is your opinion on the Athenry to Tuam motorway?

The motorway is built, but it is too far east of Galway, the jams at the Coolagh Roundabout are testimony to that.

The M18/M17 should have been built as the M20 between Limerick and Cork.

Whether the M17 should have been built as a motorway is a different question - would a DC like the Tuam bypass have been enough - probably.

But it is built, and will be paid for before the train will travel from Athenry to Tuam.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The motorway is built, but it is too far east of Galway, the jams at the Coolagh Roundabout are testimony to that.

The M18/M17 should have been built as the M20 between Limerick and Cork.

Whether the M17 should have been built as a motorway is a different question - would a DC like the Tuam bypass have been enough - probably.

But it is built, and will be paid for before the train will travel from Athenry to Tuam.

Trying to persuade government to build a less useful and unneeded piece of infrastructure parallel to it is so daft it hardly merits mention. Politicians in the region need to push to get the N17 up to a decent standard, and stop diverting the focus on to something unachievable.
Fail to plan, plan to fail.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

These few works ultimately sums the Greenway argument. It's all about us and only us.

You miss the point, hopefully deliberately.
One of the top three markers looked at by industries is 'quality of life.' In other words, they look for an environment where people will be happy to live as well as work, so that they can attract and retain staff. If an area has decent social infrastructure, things like greenways, like surfing, like restaurants, coffee bars, shops etc., it is simply more attractive to new industry, particularly the high-tech sector. Unfortunately, a lot of councillors think that the IDA builds a factory, and somebody starts making stuff in it, but that model is long gone.
There is huge opportunity for the west of Ireland to leverage on our education system and attract high-paid jobs in the tens of thousands, but what do we do instead? We look for a train to take people from somewhere to nowhere because it feels like a good idea. In the meantime, places where brainpower is applied to the problem power ahead.
Our problem in this region is regional imbalance. Building railways has nothing to do with any solution to that.

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, if the hinterland between Tuam and Athenry increases to a level that a railway is needed, then it should be built. However, there are many other areas in Ireland that would still be ahead of it.

The eighties was thirty to forty years ago.

it was indeed, but in terms of transport we are stuck in a mindset almost 30 years older.
anyway, tuam to athenry certainly has potential and i have no doubt is or at least will be a viable line in the next few years.
the fact there are other projects ahead of it is not an issue really, there will always be an order of transport projects and most are fine with that, as long as it gets done is all that matters.

eastwest wrote: »

The entire rulebook will have to be rewritten given the Zoom revolution and the working from home initiatives.
The fundamental error in the rail lobby thinking in respect of the western transport corridor is that they hark back all the time. Back to dirty industries like Asahi, projects that will never be allowed again. Back to manufacturing of products that will never be built in Ireland because of scale and globalisation. Back to when we exported all our raw materials for others to process. Back to when nobody had a car, when the roads were so bad that they couldn't sustain a decent bus service. And back to when the only way was out, on a train.
The notion of exports going out on a fibre optic cable is lost on them. As is the concept of repopulating rural areas with people who can work once they have connectivity, and who will stay once the quality of life issues attract them back. Things like surfing, or mountain biking, or greenways.
But as we've seen, there is no persuading the small coterie of groupthinkers in county councils that we are living in the twenty first century. They just don't understand.
Instead, they make claims to the effect that 1,000 freight trains a year leave Mayo (the actual figure is just over a third of that). Or claims that west on track made a submission to the Mayo Draft county Development plan explaining how it will all work if some magic money appears to build a fantasy railway. (If they did, I can't find it).

there is certainly no harking back from west on track anyway, at least i have never saw any.
industries like Asahi will be allowed while there is a need for the products they produced.
whether they would ever be produced here again is a different story but they will be allowed.
the truth is that the council in mayo actually do understand, hence their stance.

end of the road wrote: »

there is certainly no harking back from west on track anyway, at least i have never saw any.

You obviously never read any of their pronouncements

industries like Asahi will be allowed while there is a need for the products they produced.
whether they would ever be produced here again is a different story but they will be allowed.

The scale required will never see these kinds of processes carried out in a small country, particularly a first-world country. In addition, the cost of making a dirty plant like Asahi compliant with EU and Irish law would make it unworkable. We will never see their likes again, nor do we want to.

the truth is that the council in mayo actually do understand, hence their stance.

So, Mayo County Council has a 'stance'? Does that mean that the recent process of public submissions to the draft county development plan was just a joke? Does it mean they have made their minds up already and won't listen to the people of east mayo?
And is that why West on track didn't make a submission?

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

You obviously never read any of their pronouncements

The scale required will never see these kinds of processes carried out in a small country, particularly a first-world country. In addition, the cost of making a dirty plant like Asahi compliant with EU and Irish law would make it unworkable. We will never see their likes again, nor do we want to.

So, Mayo County Council has a 'stance'? Does that mean that the recent process of public submissions to the draft county development plan was just a joke? Does it mean they have made their minds up already and won't listen to the people of east mayo?
And is that why West on track didn't make a submission?

the people of east mayo?
it was a small few people, some who may be from east mayo and probably others from further affield.
the council obviously feel as i do that there are much better ideas out there for a greenway which would actually deliver benefits, rather then a poor one along the old railway which would be a greenway for the sake of it.
and i have read plenty of stuff from WOT, no harking back with anything of it that i have read.

ezstreet5

end of the road wrote: »

the people of east mayo?
it was a small few people, some who may be from east mayo and probably others from further affield.
the council obviously feel as i do that there are much better ideas out there for a greenway which would actually deliver benefits, rather then a poor one along the old railway which would be a greenway for the sake of it.
and i have read plenty of stuff from WOT, no harking back with anything of it that i have read.

On thing is for sure, Central Mayo is getting completely shafted and will not see any of the tens of thousands of high tech, high-paying greenway jobs that are being held up by the rail barons who would destroy the transportation corridor tomorrow by reinstating rail service.

ShaneC1600

Sam Russell wrote: »

The motorway is built, but it is too far east of Galway, the jams at the Coolagh Roundabout are testimony to that.

The M18/M17 should have been built as the M20 between Limerick and Cork.

Whether the M17 should have been built as a motorway is a different question - would a DC like the Tuam bypass have been enough - probably.

But it is built, and will be paid for before the train will travel from Athenry to Tuam.

What has the location of of M17 got to do with the traffic at the Coolagh roundabout?

If it was built closer to the city traffic would be even more. The outer bypass is the only answer to that build up of traffic. I know lots of people that join the motorway at Ballyglunin heading for town even though the road is so far east.
So much is made of the Western Rail Corridor but only because a few people would like a walkway on it and only because they are too lazy to actually put forward any other greenway options. The only merit the WRC offers for a greenway is that it is publicly owned because no one would waste time planning a greenway there otherwise.

Decades

ezstreet5 wrote: »

On thing is for sure, Central Mayo is getting completely shafted and will not see any of the tens of thousands of high tech, high-paying greenway jobs that are being held up by the rail barons who would destroy the transportation corridor tomorrow by reinstating rail service.

Please, can we stick with North, South, East and West? This is getting ridiculous.