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Anyone ordered a prebuilt with RTX3080 from PCSpecialist.ie?

Calibos

Seems like I’ll have to go down the prebuilt route to have any chance of getting an RTX3080 within €200 of MSRP and within the next year. Had a look at Dell G5’s and Alienware who are probably higher up the pecking order when it comes to access to new silicon but theres even a 30 day lead time with them. However, it seems one is still subject to Dell OEM versions of parts missing ports, custom wiring looms and blue mobo pcb, green GPU PCB with no backplate monstrosities etc. ie. not ideal candidates for parts harvesting.

Came across PCSpecialist.ie (Irish Domain but UK based but at least no double V.A.T.ing or Brexit shenannigans). Parts and Price wise I was happy enough but the site has ‘pre-order’ beside the RTX3080 and no indication of the brand/model of card. Ideally it’d be a Founders edition or popular AIB card to leave open the possibility of getting a waterblock for it in future if I decided to WC it.

Has anyone here ordered from PCSpecialist recently? Did it say ‘pre-order’ for the GPU when you ordered? How long did you have to wait before it arrived? Founders Edition or which AIB card did they supply you with?

TIA

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Calibos

Giblet wrote: »

Yep, sure I pay ~15c/KWH after VAT. I run the card at 230W power limit for about 90MH/s mining rate, PC is on overnight anyway if I was mining or not. So an additional ~90c per day elec. It's just under €8 net at current prices, but was higher earlier in the month.

edit: price jumped back up, profit is close to €8.50/24hr

Jaysus €8.50 Net per day is about €260 a month or €3100 in a year (I know it can fluctuate wildly)!!

Are you mining Bitcoin or Ethereum?

Knowing my luck I get the PC at the end of the month or first week of May just after a crash or that change in 'Difficulty' thing I heard something about.

If the card ended up paying for itself in under a Year, I'd be laughing!!......and the lads here calling me crazy or a 'fool and their money'......wouldn't.

(Its adding €2300 (for Strix 3090. Zotac 3090 on PCS is €2100) to the build cost so at current Mining Net profit it would pay for itself in just about 9 months)

Given my plans to make the PC a Wireless VR game streaming and Steam Remote Play game streaming server for myself and my brother in his Flat next door, 24/7 accessible with WOL, well I don't mind it Mining in all the non gaming hours of the day. Wouldn't have to worry about setting up WOL for a year anyway

I presume the Mining software can automatically shut down/restart when you use/or stop using the PC for more conventional uses?

I'd have to spend some time setting up some fan profiles to keep the thing as cool but also as quiet as possible as the PC would be in my bedroom.

So Yeah! I might PM you in a month or so when I get the PC If you don't mind, to get a more detailed low-down/how-to or at least point me in the right direction to get that info. Feel free to ignore that PM though if you are too busy/couldn't be arsed. I won't be offended.

Giblet

Calibos wrote: »

Jaysus €8.50 Net per day is about €260 a month or €3100 in a year (I know it can fluctuate wildly)!!

Are you mining Bitcoin or Ethereum?

Knowing my luck I get the PC at the end of the month or first week of May just after a crash or that change in 'Difficulty' thing I heard something about.

If the card ended up paying for itself in under a Year, I'd be laughing!!......and the lads here calling me crazy or a 'fool and their money'......wouldn't.

(Its adding €2300 (for Strix 3090. Zotac 3090 on PCS is €2100) to the build cost so at current Mining Net profit it would pay for itself in just about 9 months)

Given my plans to make the PC a Wireless VR game streaming and Steam Remote Play game streaming server for myself and my brother in our Flat next door, 24/7 accessible with WOL, well I don't mind it Mining in all the non gaming hours of the day. Wouldn't have to worry about setting up WOL for a year anyway

I presume the Mining software can automatically shut down/restart when you use/or stop using the PC for more conventional uses?

I'd have to spend some time setting up some fan profiles to keep the thing as cool but also as quiet as possible as the PC would be in my bedroom.

So Yeah! I might PM you in a month or so when I get the PC If you don't mind, to get a more detailed low-down/how-to or at least point me in the right direction to get that info. Feel free to ignore that PM though if you are too busy/couldn't be arsed. I won't be offended.

Mining Ethereum using NiceHash (which might be controversial but has tonnes of options). It pays out in bitcoin. You can tune your GFX card however you want it, and it's easy to pause, even has GAME MODE, and you can manage the rig through their app or website (change the fans, monitor the temps, underclock). I use MSI Afterburner but it's there as an option.

The trick is to ensure you restrict power and manage temps, it's less stressful than playing Cyberpunk.

You cannot mine Bitcoin on a GFX card anymore, still rueing the .5 BTC I mined back in the day on a 750TI but gambled away on SatoshiDice...

TheValeyard

Why would Nice Hash be controversial.

Also dont forget the taxman will want his share when you cash out.

Giblet

TheValeyard wrote: »

Why would Nice Hash be controversial.

Also dont forget the taxman will want his share when you cash out.

Maybe I misread, I heard they were involved in some malware, turns out I was mistaken. (I mean, the founder was, but their recent actions have been to move to open source mining tools).

Inquitus

Giblet wrote: »

You cannot mine Bitcoin on a GFX card anymore, still rueing the .5 BTC I mined back in the day on a 750TI but gambled away on SatoshiDice...

I lost 10 BTC value at the time, very very little, that I had mined myself fairly early in the BTC era. PC Upgrade, HDD binned or lost, paper wallet stored in a super secret place and evidentally never made a house move with me. I don't stress over it too much, nothing I can do and unless I had a time machine there is nothing I could do differently to make myself not lose them bar bring them back to the present with me, Back to the Future Almanac stylee!

Luck100

TheValeyard wrote: »

Why would Nice Hash be controversial.

Also dont forget the taxman will want his share when you cash out.

They were hacked a few years ago right around the peak of the last crypto bull market. Users lost all earnings they had in their NiceHash accounts.

I think the mining software gets flagged as potential malware by some virus scanners.

I believe you have a tax liability at the time you receive BTC income for mining, so doing it all on the straight-and-narrow is a lot of paperwork. You'd need to be keeping track of BTC value on the day you receive each payment from NiceHash (this is your mining earnings), and keep track of that later when you sell it (as the cost basis for capital gains/losses).

Calibos

Looked it up and the individuals €1270 CGT exemption applies before the 33% CGT on profits kicks in. In other words I could mine for 5 months at current daily net profit rates before crossing that threshold. Thats half the card paid for, and the crazy S/H prices for my GTX1080 & RTX2060 paying for the other half. Free RTX3090.

Depending on net profit levels at the 5 month mark or the taxation/paperwork hassles once the CGT threshold was crossed would determine whether I continued to mine with the card. I think the whole CGT issue is not really relevant to the likes of me mining on one GPU to help pay it off and more relevant to more serious miners with actual multi GPU Mining setups looking to earn serious monthly income from Mining.

Luck100

Calibos wrote: »

Looked it up and the individuals €1270 CGT exemption applies before the 33% CGT on profits kicks in. In other words I could mine for 5 months at current daily net profit rates before crossing that threshold. Thats half the card paid for, and the crazy S/H prices for my GTX1080 & RTX2060 paying for the other half. Free RTX3090.

Depending on net profit levels at the 5 month mark or the taxation/paperwork hassles once the CGT threshold was crossed would determine whether I continued to mine with the card. I think the whole CGT issue is not really relevant to the likes of me mining on one GPU to help pay it off and more relevant to more serious miners with actual multi GPU Mining setups looking to earn serious monthly income from Mining.

Your mining income from NiceHash is not capital gains, it's just plain income.

Calibos

Luck100 wrote: »

Your mining income from NiceHash is not capital gains, it's just plain income.

Ah OK. now I understand why you mentioned CGT in the first place and monitoring payment amounts and dates. CGT applies to any profit due to crypto value fluctuations that increases the value of the mining payments in my wallet.

What are the odds a single miner like me would make enough in a year say and then see its value increase enough due to crypto appreciation to hit the €1270 threshold though?

Or am I forgetting that more mining income hits my wallet than the figures talked about earlier because I am forgetting that those are the profit after the Lecky bill has been paid??

So what would one do as a PAYE worker? Tell Revenue one made X per month from mining and one paid Y per month for the electricity or do they not care about Y and only care about X for income tax purposes?

Just checked my last Electricity bill BTW. I'm paying 17.65c/kwh (20c incl VAT) to Bord Gais.

I take it most miners buy a Kill-a-Watt Meter to monitor their mining lecky usage or can the mining software work that out itself?

Calibos

Giblet wrote: »

Yep, sure I pay ~15c/KWH after VAT. I run the card at 230W power limit for about 90MH/s mining rate, PC is on overnight anyway if I was mining or not. So an additional ~90c per day elec. It's just under €8 net at current prices, but was higher earlier in the month.

edit: price jumped back up, profit is close to €8.50/24hr

Just making sure my numbers are right...

I’m with Bord gas paying about 20c/kwh incl. 13.5% VAT If my system consumed 250w mining thats 5c per hour x 24hrs = €4.80. Wheres your 90c coming from? My calculation method is obviously wrong. LOL. I suppose an easier method would be just to add 25% (your 15c/kwh v my 20c/kwh) to your 90c per day additional lecky cost. ie. 90c+22c=€1.12 per day additional lecky cost for me....and subtract 22c from your €8.50 a day Net profit = €8.28 for me??

Would that be about right?

Inquitus

Calibos wrote: »

Just making sure my numbers are right...

I’m with Bord gas paying about 20c/kwh incl. 13.5% VAT If my system consumed 250w mining thats 5c per hour x 24hrs = €4.80. Wheres your 90c coming from? My calculation method is obviously wrong. LOL. I suppose an easier method would be just to add 25% (your 15c/kwh v my 20c/kwh) to your 90c per day additional lecky cost. ie. 90c+22c=€1.12 per day additional lecky cost for me....and subtract 22c from your €8.50 a day Net profit = €8.28 for me??

Would that be about right?

Your maths is wrong, if your system is consuming 250W mining @ 20c/kwh that's 5c per hour, which is €1.20 per day not €4.80.

Calibos

Inquitus wrote: »

Your maths is wrong, if your system is consuming 250W mining @ 20c/kwh that's 5c per hour, which is €1.20 per day not €4.80.

DOH! You can see I knew it was 5c per hour with a 250w power draw and yet I still multiplied the full 20c/kwh by 24 to arrive at €4.80. Total brainfart.

Mickeroo

20c/kwh is pretty pricey, you can definitely do better than that if you switch supplier.

Might even be worth getting a night rate metre and switching to dual tarrif if you are going mining, energia have 14c day rate/6c night rate at the mo i think (if you have an EV you can get 16c day rate/5c night rate). You would have to do the maths on consumption to see what's best as dual rate also means a higher standing charge so you need to be consuming enough power for it to work out cheaper.

Giblet

Bord Gais usually offer a 20% discount also year on year.

Calibos

Giblet wrote: »

Bord Gais usually offer a 20% discount also year on year.

Looks like a threat to change supplier is due methinks.

Bikerman2019

Calibos wrote: »

Looks like a threat to change supplier is due methinks.

I get 25%

Calibos

Just realised that 24/7 mining for a few months is not a great idea with an AIO on the CPU. ie. Spending a fortune on a Kraken Z73 and then burning the pump out after 6 months 24/7 or getting a leak at 4am while I am asleep.

I'm planning to get a Corsair A500 CPU Tower cooler for my Media Server build where its poor price/ to performance reviews don't matter. Performance isn't an issue as its a server and the CPU won't be pushed hard and nor is price because I am paying for the aesthetic of the thing for this unconventional media server and some unique features and scope for modding it has. So, I think I'll order one, get to study it close up for its future modded life in the Media server but in the short term while mining put it in the 3090 Gaming build for the few months I'm mining to pay for as much of the 3090 as I can.....after I take a few photo's of the new PC with the Kraken z73 installed first. (Which I'll then rebox and store for a few months). By the end of the year Ethereum Mining might become unprofitable (so I hear) and the rest of my Server Case Mods will be done and It'll be ready to have all the internals put in including the A500 cooler. Mining ceases, A500 goes to server, Kraken Z73 goes back in Gaming system. Done...Dusted.... and hopefully a grand or two earned with the mining offsetting the cost of the 3090.

K.O.Kiki

Why bother with the Corsair A500?
They’re not going cheap anymore and for the 65-odd they’re at you could get a Noctua NH-U12S (€60) or Redux (€50) and 6 year warranty.

Calibos

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Why bother with the Corsair A500?
They’re not going cheap anymore and for the 65-odd they’re at you could get a Noctua NH-U12S (€60) or Redux (€50) and 6 year warranty.

Like I said already, I was going for its looks primarily because its ultimate destination (after I finished Mining Crypto on the main Rig) was to a Media server where price/performance ratio nor absolute performance didn't matter. Its moot now though. Thought it would fit in the Server case but it won't after measuring. The idea I have in my head now for the Server is a Noctua C14 with a custom RGB lit acrylic duct system encapsulating the C14 fins to channel air unconventionally through it from and where I need it to go.

Explaining in words often isn't good enough because most people are still going to be thinking in terms of conventional ATX Case layouts when trying to visualise what I am talking about in their heads. When I have some free time in the next week or two I'll be doing some new Sketchup models and renders which will dispel any confusion. Easier seeing it than trying to visualise a Corsair Air540 case with 12-18 HDD Bays on the side of the case where the mobo and other parts usually are and the motherboard tray flipped so its now facing the PSU side of the Air540's dual compartment design. PSU moved to the other side. Mobo upside down, acrylic RGB backlit shrouds hiding cables and acrylic backlit Duct channeling air over the C14 cooler to the back of the case. Possibly hard to parse when its described in words but looking at the sketchup model it'll be like, "Ah Yeah! I see what he did there..."

If I do decide to mine for a few months I'll make do with the placeholder AMD cooler thats coming in the PCS build (You need to order something). I was ordering a Kraken Z73 360mm AIO for CPU seperately but have changed my mind to a Corsair H150i Elite Cappelix 360mm AIO as I read horror stories about the NZXT CAM software and I already have lots of Corsair stuff and am familiar with iCUE. Given that Corsair also have a deal with ASUS linking iCUE to all the Strix/ROG/Aura RGB stuff, if I switch back to a Corsair AIO, absolutely everything Fan, RGB and KB&M related in my setup will be under the iCUE umbrella. TBH what sold me on the Kraken AIO Z series was the novelty of Displays on the CPU Pump units....however then I saw YT vids about 'Sensor Panels' and thought, "Hmmmm, I like that!!" Gets me my Sensor stats at a glance fix while allowing me to use a Corsair AIO which simplifies control with iCUE.

2 min 48 secs in

Don't know if I mentioned it in this thread or my other one...or at all...but for the Media Server which will mostly run 'headless' as it were, I also wanted similar sensor stats at a glance functionality but instead of a small display, for the Media server I am going to do a 'Snow-Blind' mod in the acrylic side panel in front of the Server Drive bays. ie. Have the usual CPU Freq, Load, Temp stats but also have a widget showing S.M.A.R.T. stats for each individual HDD displaying capacity, free space, Drive Health, temp etc. ie. A Widget positioned over the physical location of the HDD it refers to.

6 min 34 secs in

Calibos

Upgraded the CPU to a 12 core 5900x as I saw someone from Dublin who ordered a 5900x/3090 system from PCS about week before me have his Rig go to the 'Building' Stage already. The 5900X showing as pre-order for me was the only reason I didn't spend the extra €100 for it in the first place.

Also switched the 512GB Samsung 980 Pro NVME Gen 4 to a 1TB and changed from 32GB of 3200mhz Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro DDR4 to 16GB of 3600mhz Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro DDR4. I would have selected 32GB of it but the configurator won't give me the option of 4x 8GB sticks of this only 2x 16GB. I want all DRAM slots populated, so thats why I specced 2x8GB 3600mhz and I'll pick up another 2x8GB from OCUK.

Case                    Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL (ROG Certified) Aluminium Midi Tower White

Processor (CPU)	        AMD Ryzen 9 5900X 12 Core CPU (3.7GHz-4.8GHz/70MB CACHE/AM4)

Motherboard	        ASUS&#174; ROG STRIX X570-F GAMING (USB 3.2 Gen 2, PCIe 4.0) - ARGB Ready!

Memory (RAM)	        16GB Corsair VENGEANCE RGB PRO DDR4 3600MHz (2 x 8GB)

Graphics Card	        24GB ASUS ROG STRIX GEFORCE RTX 3090 - HDMI, DP

1st M.2 SSD Drive	1TB SAMSUNG 980 PRO M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 7000MB/R, 5000MB/W)

2nd M.2 SSD Drive	2TB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe (up to 3500MB/R, 3300MB/W)

Power Supply	        CORSAIR 1000W RMx SERIES&#8482; MODULAR 80 PLUS&#174; GOLD, ULTRA QUIET

Power Cable	        1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)

Processor Cooling	STANDARD AMD CPU COOLER

Thermal Paste	        STANDARD THERMAL PASTE FOR SUFFICIENT COOLING

Sound Card	        ONBOARD 6 CHANNEL (5.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)

Network Card	        10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORT (Wi-Fi NOT INCLUDED)

USB/Thunderbolt	MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 2 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS

Operating System	NO OPERATING SYSTEM REQUIRED

Giblet

No reason to have all of your DIMM slots populated, max dual channel anyway.

Calibos

Giblet wrote: »

No reason to have all of your DIMM slots populated, max dual channel anyway.

All you Function over Form guys!!

I'm a Form over Function guy!!

:D

ie. No reason other than aesthetics. I want all DIMM slots populated for the looks.

Calibos

Just realised that if the PCS supplied 'AMD Standard Cooler' is the Wraith Prism that used to be supplied with the Ryzen 7/9 class of CPU's, then I would be happy with how it looked in the Media Server, its a decent stock cooler performance wise and its about 95mm which will fit where I need it to fit. Saves me a lot of acrylic duct work I talked about earlier but just involves digging through my myriad of spare parts and brackets to DIY up a way to mount it on an Intel i7 6700K. I'd rather not go the Zip-Tie route.

Funnily enough the free DIY solution offers the best performance within my Cooler height constraints with minimal mods to the case unlike the C14 option.

Giblet

Wait, what cooler are you planning to put on the 5900x?

Calibos

Giblet wrote: »

Wait, what cooler are you planning to put on the 5900x?

You have to order 'some' cooler on the PCS configurator even if you don't intend to use it and plan to source a different cooler elsewhere. You pick the cheapest one that the configurator will allow for your CPU. As soon as the PC is delivered I will already have a new 360mm AIO bought elsewhere ready to fit.

The last few posts is me realising that I shouldn't use that AIO 24/7 if I intend to Crypto mine to help pay for some or all of the GPU for a few months till its said Ethereum mining will become unprofitable on GPU's again. First I thought, "Well I'm buying a Corsair A500 Tower cooler for the Media server, I'll just use it in the RTX3090 Rig while mining for a few months first. Then I did some more measurements and realised that a particular component arrangment in the media server was still 20cm shy of being able to accommadate an A500. I was back to having a 100mm hard limit on CPU cooler height for the media server. Then I realised that if the Standard AMD cooler that is a the PCS configurator placebolder in my 3090 rig is a Wraith Prism, not alone will it do for a few months while mining with the main rig but it actually meets the performance, aesthetics and hiehgt requirements for when I put it in the media server build.

I've decided on a Corsair H150i Elite Capellix 360mm AIO for the main rig, I just might not be installing it for a few months if I decide to mine and will instead leave whatever placeholder AMD cooler PCS ends up supplying.

Giblet

It's just if you are gaming, the 5900x gets quite hot on stock cooling, more heat = less boost.
I have a similar setup to you, you have to be mindful of tower coolers with the X570-F + Corsair Vengeance. I use a Noctua D-15S myself, which is slightly offset and has clearance for both the GFX Card PCI slot and the RAM. Case clearance also applies.

I'd just install the AIO.

Shlippery

Give us a running tally of the costs with all the changes since you started the thread! :pac:

(that being said, yer battlestation/desk setup is one of the best - so really looking forward to seeing the end result - despite the eye watering figures)

Although, I imagine your desk won't look wildly different if you're going to put it into your existing case?

Calibos

Shlippery wrote: »

Give us a running tally of the costs with all the changes since you started the thread! :pac:

(that being said, yer battlestation/desk setup is one of the best - so really looking forward to seeing the end result - despite the eye watering figures)

Although, I imagine your desk won't look wildly different if you're going to put it into your existing case?

That was one of the first things I changed!

Risk to/confusing Warranty terms if the customer transferred the contents of the pre-built into their own case during the warranty period. For this reason PCS offer a service where the customer can send their own case into PCS to have the ordered config installed by PCS and thus the warranty fully covers the PC including your own case.......except Brexit ended that for Irish Customers, not that I liked the idea of the cost and hassle of sending my case to the UK.

The one case they sell that I really liked and its no surprise as its the same Dual compartment design as my Corsair Air540, is the Lian Li O11 Dynamic. Turns out its a really popular case....and PCS have none in stock and the one they normally do was the Black version not the WHite version I prefferred. So the plan became to order the white version from OCUK (ETA 28/04/21) and have them deliver it to PCS. This was OK by OCUK and initially it was OK by PCS. Then their accounts department worried about VAT implications and getting proof I had paid UK VAT on the case and not VAT exempt like other stuff an Irish customer can order from OCUK over the phone for shipment to Ireland. So they then said that they would order the case from OCUK on my behalf to ensure VAT was in order. However yesterday they got back to me and said the White version would be £115 more expensive because of Pallet shipping. BS. It'd cost me £11 via DPD to ship from OCUK in Newcastle to PCS in Wakefield. I know purchasings game. They just want me to pick the black version that they can source via their regular wholesaler of this case and keep OCUK out of the loop. Luckily before I sent off an email complaining about the outrageous price, I took the time to look at a few Youtube videos of the Black version of the case with a similar fan and AIO setup that I have in mind.....and well, I really liked it and immediately went off the whole idea of a white build. A few small changes to my desk setup and I think the Black version of the case will look fantastic. So I gave PCS purchasing the go ahead to source me the black version which I know actually means me getting one of the Black O11 Dynamics they already have ordered and in transit from China as we speak and OCUK are totally out of the loop. Don't care given its the same price as OCUK and might even mean I get the PC quicker....and most importantly now that I Love the Black version of the case.

TLDR? I'm getting the Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL (ROG Certified) in Black.

Of course I will be using this case on its side like my Air540. Another few IKEA Capita legs and 2 more €7 IKEA Malm coffee tables (I throw the legs away) and a reconfig of the Monitor shelf and I think the Desk will look even better with the new PC and more user friendly. 5.1 Receiver will go where the Air540 is now with a Malm Coffee table over it and my VR Headsets and Headphones on stands on top of that. That corner is safe from the sun no matter the time of day and is where I store my VR headsets now but just sat on the case currently occupying that location. The PC shifted right and my 'front' fan exhausts now lower means I am no longer blasted with hot air when using the Sim-Rig like I was with the Air540 in the corner blowing hot exhaust air right into the side of my face. So Left to right its then the new PC case, then a lowered Monitor and monitor shelf. I can now push the keyboard further back which will be more comfortable and the kb&m cables will disappear under the Monitor shelf. Then to the right of that I am going to build the Media server into the Black Air540 I have instead of the White one (will flog or give away the white one). ie. With the decision to go with the Black O11 Dynamic I want to tone down the amount of white on the desk. Finally in the right corner of the desk will be a matching Malm Coffee table with the Black Epson Printer under it kind of mirroring the one on the other side with the 5.1 receiver under it. I'm a big MCU fan so I might ask my brother for some of his spare 12 inch Avengers Figurines to put on top of that malm 'coffee table' shelf. (He has multiple versions/iterations of many 12" MCU Figurines, so I am sure he can spare some.

) Did I mentioned the Snow-Blind mod to the left acrylic side panel of the Media Server or the upgrading of the LED Lights on the desk or how the Media server Case LED's will actually be routed into the Case from the desk Strip so that when I turn off the desk lights at night the 24/7 Media server lights go off too and don't keep me awake.......[Catches Breath]

Calibos

Hmmm.

Not so sure now about the layout I described earlier:

Any suggestions?

Squidgy Black

Calibos wrote: »

Hmmm.

Not so sure now about the layout I described earlier:

Any suggestions?

If you out the Lian Li on its side like you have in the render it'll choke the 3 fans on the side completely and render them useless other than just circulating air inside the case just fyi