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Belfast Disturbances

Lougho

So approaching a disjointed marching season in North of Ireland for a second year running, Sandyrow and The waterside in Derry have now erupted with violent clashes.

Sandyrow seen officers injured and it is being blamed on the Irish sea border, within the community it seems the Royal bar leadership were arching up the tensions the past few weeks with banners at the front of the bar.

Is the LCC committed to non violent means or is it more Smoke and mirrors from the UDA and UVF. Donegal pass under the UVF and Sandyrow both came to a standstill last night.

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downcow

steddyeddy wrote: »

You're misusing the term unionist. It's loyalist. Not unionist.

So tell me how you differentiate them?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Oh I see it.
The dup and the Roi are both being heavily blamed by grassroots unionists.
The Roi for progating the lie and the dup for not countering it.

Unfortunately we have a very difficult summer in front of us that may well let the genie out of the bottle.

Do you think things escalating in ni will bring a UI closer or push it further away? A serious question

13 and 14 year old kids flinging petrol bombs are 'grassroots Unionism'? Is that what you are saying? Because there is zero evidence that there is any anger or discontent anywhere else other than among a few in deprived areas and political Unionism, which is seeking to blame everyone else but themselves for their own mess.

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

This is slowly turning into another brexit thread.

Good to see much less violence last night, but the reasons for the violence will have to be examined at some point, whether now or after 10 years of it.

But we already know the reasons. Before the vote in 2016, people warned that this could happen.

The backstop would have prevented all of this by keeping NI the exact same as GB, and Teresa May was about to sign that deal until Arlene Foster stopped her. Do you accept this fact, or not?

And obviously it's turned into a Brexit thread. The violence is a direct result of Brexit and your community's failure to secure NI's position. There didn't have to be a border anywhere until Arlene Foster intervened.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So tell me how you differentiate them?

Naomi Long is currently a Unionist but not a Loyalist.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

13 and 14 year old kids flinging petrol bombs are 'grassroots Unionism'? Is that what you are saying? Because there is zero evidence that there is any anger or discontent anywhere else other than among a few in deprived areas and political Unionism, which is seeking to blame everyone else but themselves for their own mess.

Well that is just nonsense. I know how my community is feeling. Tell me how these feelings could be publicised so as you are aware?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Naomi Long is currently a Unionist but not a Loyalist.

I would regard her as a moderate unionist and a moderate loyalist. Tell me what the difference is?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well that is just nonsense. I know how my community is feeling. Tell me how these feelings could be publicised so as you are aware?

Paisley brught a 100,000 onto the streets in protest.

Unionism is having to invent terror threats ffs in order to pretend there is widespread anger.

Currently the ONLY expression of anger is from kids in deprived areas who do this kind of thing annually almost. Political Unionism is telling porkies to cover it's abject failure. I know 'your' community here along the border and they are more angry about being dragged out of the EU to be perfectly honest.

Sierra Oscar

https://twitter.com/vincekearney/status/1380851573497159681

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I would regard her as a moderate unionist and a moderate loyalist. Tell me what the difference is?

A Unionist is primarily aligned to democratically elected British governments. A Loyalist is primarily loyal to the Monarchy and ascendancy and has an a lá carte attitude to democracy.

briany

JupiterKid wrote: »

That is simply never going to happen. EU membership has completely transformed Ireland’s economy and society for the better and the Irish electorate and body politic are more than fully aware of this.

It could do the same for the UK, maybe.

overshoot

downcow wrote: »

So you think supporting a border through the middle of the UK supports the gfa?

I never said I support it, I said brexit was a utter folly and showed Britain's disinterest in NI by not discussing it prior to the vote, never mind what came after.
The sea border doesn't support the objectives of the GFA but it is complaint with it, and it is why NI is now cut of from Britain, a decision made by Westminster.

In the end Westminster placed Britain where it wanted and at odds with the EU. Would you not agree that if the union was so important to them they could have taken a hard brexit or diverged less from the EU?

Edit: as it should be asked directly too, do you think Brexit back at day 1 supported the GFA?

steddyeddy

It has done the same for the UK. It's just that people in England have an extremely poor example of their own history. Britain was an economic basket case prior to joining the union. It was only after entering the single market that its economy flustered.

The 1976 UK Sterling Crisis was a balance of payments or currency crisis in the United Kingdom in 1976 which forced James Callaghan's Labour government to borrow $3.9 billion ($17.5 billion in 2019) from the International Monetary Fund (IMF), at the time the largest loan ever to have been requested from the IMF.

steddyeddy

It's an amazing insight into the psychology of loyalism that you have a thread full of people saying that Brexit is a bad idea while someone accuses you of supporting a Brexit imposed sea border.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

It has done the same for the UK. It's just that people in England have an extremely poor example of their own history. Britain was an economic basket case prior to joining the union. It was only after entering the single market that its economy flustered.

Completely forgotten by Rule Britannia crew, of course.

lawred2

steddyeddy wrote: »

It has done the same for the UK. It's just that people in England have an extremely poor example of their own history. Britain was an economic basket case prior to joining the union. It was only after entering the single market that its economy flustered.

Flourished?

steddyeddy

lawred2 wrote: »

Flourished?

Well developed to the point where they could have collective amnesia about ever being an economic basketcase.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's easy to over exaggerate what is happening, this is Belfast this morning. People with agendas will manipulate these youths for political ends.

The vast majority are not in conflict.

https://twitter.com/LauraNoonanFT/status/1380797540325548032

Exactly.

Someone on here yesterday saying we should be fearful in the South :rolleyes:

This is confined to tiny areas of Northern Ireland.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Unionist is primarily aligned to democratically elected British governments. A Loyalist is primarily loyal to the Monarchy and ascendancy and has an a lá carte attitude to democracy.

You even define our identity for us. That’s not how I would describe either.
How would you go with nationalist and republican?

And could you do Protestant and Catholic for me, also in the ni context?

Life is simple in your world, isn’t it.

downcow

6 wrote: »

Exactly.

Someone on here yesterday saying we should be fearful in the South :rolleyes:

This is confined to tiny areas of Northern Ireland.

....you thought it would be like Reagan coming on tv and announcing ‘shock and awe’ for the south and the Uvf sending 20 of their fighter jets down to bomb Dublin?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You even define our identity for us.

Jesus H, YOU asked me to define them. :rolleyes:

That’s not how I would describe either.

The floor is yours, give us your definition.

tayto lover

I see many Loyalists were not too loyal again last night.
Couldn’t even live up to their name.

cameramonkey

tayto lover wrote: »

I see many Loyalists were not too loyal again last night.
Couldn’t even live up to their name.

Only loyal to the half crown they get from drug dealing.

McMurphy

tayto lover wrote: »

I see many Loyalists were not too loyal again last night.
Couldn’t even live up to their name.

God and Ulster went out the window years ago tayto. It's all organised crime and disco biscuits, Colombian marching powder and Jamaican Woodbines these days tayto.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus H, YOU asked me to define them. :rolleyes:

The floor is yours, give us your definition.

My point is that there is no clean definition. I actually don’t see any significant difference. Same as nationalist and republican.

I was just interested when someone (maybe you) said that the young people on the streets were loyalist and not unionist. As a member of the PUL community, I find that a very strange statement. Your description was even stranger in my opinion.

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

This post is such a contradiction it is funny.
Naomi long is born reared and still part of the PUL community. She is a Protestant (quite strong faith), a unionist and loyal to the crown.

My post, if you reread it, clearly recognises that Naomi Long is of a unionist persuasion. My point is that neither of the main Unionists parties (Official/Ulster Unionist or DUP) has produced a leader of her calibre. In fact, Naomi's party (Alliance) has previously been accused in NI by unionists has being part of the 'Pan Nationalist Front'.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

My point is that there is no clean definition. I actually don’t see any significant difference. Same as nationalist and republican.

I was just interested when someone (maybe you) said that the young people on the streets were loyalist and not unionist. As a member of the PUL community, I find that a very strange statement. Your description was even stranger in my opinion.

They will use violence against a British government to get their way = Loyalist, as per my description above.

FTA69

downcow wrote: »

I would regard her as a moderate unionist and a moderate loyalist. Tell me what the difference is?

Unionism at its most basic is the belief that Ireland or a part of it are better off under British sovereignty.

Loyalism is a culture that has its roots in supremacy and exceptionalism underpinned by specific cultural trappings and is unique to certain parts of the north of Ireland.

RobMc59

The riots are terrible but those doing it are in a minority.
https://twitter.com/RobbieButlerMLA/status/1380829223133253632?s=19

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They will use violence against a British government to get their way = Loyalist, as per my description above.

I think you are just making up descriptions.
I see little difference in them.
Unionist certainly support the union, that does not mean they cannot oppose the government of the day - ie the union comes first before supporting any particular government
Loyalist are the same but I may agree that there is a slight nuanced difference in that those who would say they are first and foremost a loyalist would, I believe, contemplate arrangements outside the UK but maintaining NI and for some that would need to have the british monarch

I think loyalists are first and foremost loyal to OWC with the UK a very important thing to also hold on to.

Dufflecoat Fanny

dd973 wrote: »

It's odd how thousands of U.K citizens live happily in the ROI yet it's obvious these Loyalists/Unionists will never be happy here even after being here for generations. They seem to hate Ireland and Irish people and culture but are strident about living here, if I lived in France but hated France and the French I'd just leave.

They're basically an abandoned caravan of a failed invasion