Corruption in charities

gmisk · 09-04-2021 8:30am #1

Is it just me or are there an increasing number or charities that are notifying the gardai etc of pretty horrendous fraud?
Is there a lack of decent controls and oversight in this sector?

Bothar is the latest one in a lot of bother...

Charity Bóthar claims ex-CEO misappropriated hundreds of thousands of euro worth of donations https://jrnl.ie/5404560

shtpEdthePlum · 09-04-2021 8:32am

Who gives to national charities anymore? The only guarantee you have your money is being well spent is to give to local charities you trust. I give Penny Dinners and Simon Community in Cork €500 each every year. I'm sure every county has those worthy causes.

Faolchu · 09-04-2021 8:33am

probably as many private companies but they can keep it quieter to better protect their reputation and their shareholders. Charities tend to have more scrutiny because some receive funding from the HSE to provide services on their behalf.

riffmongous · 09-04-2021 8:44am

What kind of absolute scumbag would steal from a charity like that? Hundreds of thousands of euros

fryup · 09-04-2021 8:48am

"that money was just resting in my account"

kildare lad · 09-04-2021 9:44am

I'd never donate to charity again . After donating a good bit of money to Console who were doing a Dancing with the Stars night locally , then finding out the CEO was on the fiddle it's put me right off it. Many of the top CEOs are on huge salaries and i can't justify giving money anymore. I still throw odds into the Make a Wish foundation or Crumlin children's hospital collections at the supermarket or buy books from charity shops but that's about it . I think there's something like 10,000 registered charities in Ireland , that's a huge number for a country the size of Ireland .

Ubbquittious · 09-04-2021 9:50am

The charity industry is just another industry. A tempting one to get into as you don't actually have to sell a product.

In order to get your donations it can cost you up to half your donations. Between advertising and paying chugging companies their cut half your income could be spent on getting that income in the first place.

Then you take on a load of staff (your family) to do light admin work for you, pay your own salary (100k & company black Mercedes). A lot of these charity bosses spend their days liasing with politicians and other bigshots in swanky Dublin establishments.

Begrudgingly spend some of what income you have left on actual charity and spend the remainder on hiring a PR company to big up the good you have done in order to secure future donations.

It's all a load of sh1te

whisky_galore · 09-04-2021 9:58am

People are naive fools to give anything to these shysters.

Zebra3 · 09-04-2021 9:59am

Charity is failure of government.

humberklog · 09-04-2021 10:49am

There's probably more charities notifying authorities of fraud these days because of the number of checks and balances and people involved in running the charity where fraud can now be easier exposed.

I've no doubt that fraud and theft existed just as much if not more so in the past.

That's not to say I'd donate to many charities as I simply don't trust most of them and those that I do think probably run a straight financial ship are the ones that I'd disagree with their methods, ethos and self interest.

For Forks Sake · 09-04-2021 11:10am

riffmongous wrote: »

What kind of absolute scumbag would steal from a charity like that? Hundreds of thousands of euros

I'm going to guess that f*cking goat was in on it and all

keano_afc · 09-04-2021 11:16am

https://www.thejournal.ie/glen-charity-investigation-3406051-May2017/

I remember this one was swept under the rug fairly sharpish.

yosser hughes · 09-04-2021 11:20am

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

Who gives to national charities anymore? The only guarantee you have your money is being well spent is to give to local charities you trust. I give Penny Dinners and Simon Community in Cork €500 each every year. I'm sure every county has those worthy causes.

Have you looked at the published accounts of the Simon Community? I wouldn't give them a Euro.

09-04-2021 11:20am

whisky_galore wrote: »

People are naive fools to give anything to these shysters.

Do you mean the named charities, or charities in general?

Always found it a great starting point to recall that there are chancers everywhere, but they are a minority. Most people are good. Have yet to be disappointed.

Gregor Samsa · 09-04-2021 11:21am

keano_afc wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/glen-charity-investigation-3406051-May2017/

I remember this one was swept under the rug fairly sharpish.

No it wasn't. There's plenty of news reports about it in all the major media outlets from 2017 and 2018.

Final report is here: https://www.charitiesregulator.ie/en/information-for-the-public/our-news/2018/april/inspectors-find-glen-lacked-the-financial-reporting-and-disclosure-processes-required-to-protect-the-charity-s-assets-and-funds

gmisk · 09-04-2021 11:23am

keano_afc wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/glen-charity-investigation-3406051-May2017/

I remember this one was swept under the rug fairly sharpish.

Definitely not swept under the carpet, it was shut down and there was a proper investigation

09-04-2021 11:24am

whisky_galore wrote: »

People are naive fools to give anything to these shysters.

What does that make the ones who give money to the Roma?.

A raft of them arrived into the city here last year, apparently they're all hungry and homeless yet somehow only managed to arrive in later life... and divs give them money and encourage it.

If people are that gullible I can only imagine how much a registered charity can collect.

09-04-2021 11:25am

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

Who gives to national charities anymore? The only guarantee you have your money is being well spent is to give to local charities you trust. I give Penny Dinners and Simon Community in Cork €500 each every year. I'm sure every county has those worthy causes.

Aye, I operate on the local only basis also. Donate clothes and books to charity shops in my home town, if a legitimate operator is shaking the bucket I'll deposit some coin. Table quizzes, other fundraisers for struggling residents I'm happy to participate. That's it, sceptical of money going overseas as this inevitably gets "attacked" on way to destination. Concern & Trócaire? Haven't touched them in years. Put it on the tab for purgatory.

Dempo1 · 09-04-2021 11:27am

gmisk wrote: »

Is it just me or are there an increasing number or charities that are notifying the gardai etc of pretty horrendous fraud?
Is there a lack of decent controls and oversight in this sector?

Bothar is the latest one in a lot of bother...

Charity Bóthar claims ex-CEO misappropriated hundreds of thousands of euro worth of donations https://jrnl.ie/5404560

I too am perplexed at why so many Charity Bosses caught with hands in the till, it's quite extraordinary given the nature of the very principals of what Charity's stand for, perhaps they feel they are in need of charity themselves, absolutely appalling behavior and this is as much about what the regulator actually does or clearly doesn't. At a minimum any charitable organisation should be independently audited once a year and not a wink and nod oversight which clearly is what's going on right now.

fryup · 09-04-2021 11:30am

never realised until recently that charities had ceo's and boards of management....i always presumed that they were run by volunteers top to bottom

maybe i'm just too innocent

Iguarantee · 09-04-2021 11:31am

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

Who gives to national charities anymore? The only guarantee you have your money is being well spent is to give to local charities you trust. I give Penny Dinners and Simon Community in Cork €500 each every year. I'm sure every county has those worthy causes.

Three years in a row I gave Penny Dinners a voucher for a local food supplier (1km down the road from their premises). It was worth hundreds, and was going to be matched by the supplier themselves so they’d get a lot out of it.

To this day they haven’t cashed in a cent of it. I won’t be giving them anything again. I applaud their charity work, but it seems they don’t want help or support, from me at least.

seamus · 09-04-2021 11:37am

Seeing all various charities that have been revealed to be getting scammed by their management, and having experience dealing with management with a couple of others, I'm convinced that people with the relevant qualifications - CEOs, CFOs, etc - are drawn to charities specifically because they see it as a soft-touch, light-regulation opportunity to line their own pockets.

Most of the people working on the "front line" of the charity are not corporate ladder climbers with business degrees, they're just people looking to do some good and earn an honest wage. So as a dodgy CEO none of these people are going to see what you're doing. And Revenue and other regulatory bodies will go easy on you and accept accounting discrepancies because it's just a charity, and auditing a charity isn't a good look.

As it is I'm now by default suspicious of any business person who takes a position as an executive in a charity. I assume they're a sociopath who's on the take, not some philanthropist looking to do good in the world.

fryup wrote: »

never realised until recently that charities had ceo's and boards of management....i always presumed that they were run by volunteers top to bottom

maybe i'm just too innocent

When a charity gets big, administration becomes a full-time job. So it becomes next to impossible to find anyone who can take it on without being paid.

That's not to say corruption only applies to big charities. There are plenty of small charities that are entirely volunteer-led where the main players are skimming off the top. They'll justify it to themselves as compensation for their volunteer time.

Mrsmum · 09-04-2021 11:37am

I always wonder, when these charity stories break, do dishonest people get involved in charities or would temptation corrupt more than we would like to believe ? If the latter, or the former as well, of course, there really should be better controls where it is just not possible to do this. I know in my locality two people who did this kind of thing, one robbed from GAA funds, the other from the bank he worked in. Otherwise to all intents and purposes they seemed as decent as you could meet. Can you be decent and have this side to you as well ?

whisky_galore · 09-04-2021 11:44am

gilberto_eire wrote: »

What does that make the ones who give money to the Roma?.

A raft of them arrived into the city here last year, apparently they're all hungry and homeless yet somehow only managed to arrive in later life... and divs give them money and encourage it.

If people are that gullible I can only imagine how much a registered charity can collect.

It is their culture, not just a hackneyed phrase but begging IS their culture. They return here again and again as they would not if it was not worth their while.

corner of hells · 09-04-2021 11:50am

I work for a charity if anyone wants to send me on thier bank details, itll cut out a lot of the red tape.

fryup · 09-04-2021 11:53am

Mrsmum wrote: »

one robbed from GAA funds,

robbing from the robbers?

crossman47 · 09-04-2021 11:59am

fryup wrote: »

never realised until recently that charities had ceo's and boards of management....i always presumed that they were run by volunteers top to bottom

maybe i'm just too innocent

You couldn't run a big charity without paid staff. Vincent De Paul seem to have a good structure. There are paid staff but the Board is volunteer led and all workers on the ground are volunteers.

Mimon · 09-04-2021 12:03pm

crossman47 wrote: »

You couldn't run a big charity without paid staff. Vincent De Paul seem to have a good structure. There are paid staff but the Board is volunteer led and all workers on the ground are volunteers.

Wonder how the red cross works? Apparently 100% of donations will go to the where it should.

Seems to be if not direct fraud a lot of the charities are run as much for the people working for the charity as the recipients of the charity. With overinflated salaries.

AllForIt · 09-04-2021 12:04pm

fryup wrote: »

never realised until recently that charities had ceo's and boards of management....i always presumed that they were run by volunteers top to bottom

maybe i'm just too innocent

Yes, the Late Late show was a bit of an eye-opener for me too in this regard, when they did a special on cancer a few weeks back featuring reps from the Irish Cancer Society including Avril Power.

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=irish+cancer+society+ceo&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Averil Power, the Irish Cancer Society's current CEO, was paid an annual salary of €125,000 in 2019.

What I would like to know is, now many people the ICS sustains in full employment; obvs most involved are volenteers but how many are not.

whisky_galore · 09-04-2021 12:08pm

AllForIt wrote: »

Yes, the Late Late show was a bit of an eye-opener for me too in this regard, when they did a special on cancer a few weeks back featuring reps from the Irish Cancer Society including Avril Power.

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=irish+cancer+society+ceo&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

What I would like to know is, now many people the ICS sustains in full employment; obvs most involved are volenteers but how many are not.

Nice work if you can get it. Overpaid glorified carnival barkers.

Gregor Samsa · 09-04-2021 12:12pm

AllForIt wrote: »

What I would like to know is, now many people the ICS sustains in full employment; obvs most involved are volenteers but how many are not.

About 150 people in 2018, according to their website:

https://www.cancer.ie/about-us/about-the-irish-cancer-society/transparency/our-employees-and-their-salaries

However, this includes nurses, not just office staff. All their current job vacancies are for nurses:

https://www.cancer.ie/about-us/jobs

It would be a bit hard to run an organisation that provides cancer care without medical professionals.

09-04-2021 12:14pm

Charity is basically a meaningless word in Ireland. They're companies run for the enrichment of the founders and staff.
When you have more employees of homeless charities than homeless people it's a clear con. Legally it may be fine but people assume they're giving their money for a cause, not to create jobs for the people working in the charities.

At the end of the day charities shouldn't be funded by the state. If a service is deemed essential by the state and money should be spent on it then do it. Otherwise you're funnelling hundreds of millions into a sector full of shysters.

Mimon · 09-04-2021 12:20pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Nice work if you can get it. Overpaid glorified carnival barkers.

I know outrage rant but car allowance of 10,000 is obscene!

"The Irish Cancer Society employed an average of 150 people in 2018 at a cost of €7.6 million out of a total expenditure of €20 million."

seamus · 09-04-2021 12:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

They're companies run for the enrichment of the founders and staff executives.

FYP. Charity staff are among the worst-paid in the country. If you want a well-paid job that's relevant to your qualifications, charity is the last place you go.

CEO & CFOs tell staff there's no money for pay rises, ask them to pay for their own work equipment and tell them to think of the charity and everyone they're helping. All the while the same executives award themselves six figure salaries, discretionary bonusses, unvouched expenses and drive around in expensive company vehicles.

I never donate to the big charities any more. If I can help it, I stick to directly funding good causes (e.g. the Zoo) or charities where I know who's involved and what they do. Faceless charities like Concern and Bóthar are pissing your money down the drain.

crossman47 · 09-04-2021 12:40pm

Mimon wrote: »

I know outrage rant but car allowance of 10,000 is obscene!

I don't know but that may be for nurses calling to people in their homes.

Half-cocked · 09-04-2021 12:43pm

Bothar. I have been making a monthly donation to them for years. I have farmer friends who have reared and donated animals to them. And now it appears that their CEO was nicking €1000's off them. It's alleged that he even paid himself an unauthorized 13th month salary. Really thinking about hitting the cancel button on the direct debit.

YellowLead · 09-04-2021 12:46pm

To be fair there are 100s if not 1000s of charities so proportion wise it’s only teeny percentages that have been scandalised.
And it’s usually not the whole org - a couple of people at the top so i feel sorry for those working there who do their very best to help and who process everything accordingly. It’s unfair to just blast the whole sector. There is incredible work being done out there - you may realise it if you have to rely on one one day!

riffmongous · 09-04-2021 5:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

At the end of the day charities shouldn't be funded by the state. If a service is deemed essential by the state and money should be spent on it then do it. Otherwise you're funnelling hundreds of millions into a sector full of shysters.

And what about all the volunteers that make up most of the workforce of a charity, who is going to pay for them?

Montage of Feck · 09-04-2021 6:24pm

I've always been quite cynical about bothar and their methods. Sending out high maintenance European breeds to African farmers is very misguided in my opinion.

Lmkrnr · 09-04-2021 6:29pm

How can you donate 10 ect quid to a charity knowing the CEO is getting 100k plus. Makes no sense. Your better off giving something direct to the person that needs it.

BattleCorp · 09-04-2021 6:50pm

Mimon wrote: »

I know outrage rant but car allowance of 10,000 is obscene!

I would think that the figure of €10,000 per annum isn't as much as many other CEO's would be paying when leasing their cars.

A Ford Focus (not exactly a CEO style vehicle) is €8,160 per year to lease from LeasePlan. That doesn't include fuel or insurance.

BattleCorp · 09-04-2021 6:51pm

crossman47 wrote: »

I don't know but that may be for nurses calling to people in their homes.

That figure is published on the website as being the allowance for the CEO. Nothing to do with nurses.

That said, I don't think it's excessive to be honest.

AndrewJRenko · 09-04-2021 8:01pm

riffmongous wrote: »

And what about all the volunteers that make up most of the workforce of a charity, who is going to pay for them?

Very few charities have a majority of workforce as volunteers - maybe SVP, but almost any charity that has significant size is going to have professional, paid, full-time staff. There's nothing wrong with having professional, paid, full-time staff.

AllForIt wrote: »

What I would like to know is, now many people the ICS sustains in full employment; obvs most involved are volenteers but how many are not.

Did you try looking in their annual report? Charities have specific reporting obligations that cover all this kind of information now.

Mimon wrote: »

Wonder how the red cross works? Apparently 100% of donations will go to the where it should.

Seems to be if not direct fraud a lot of the charities are run as much for the people working for the charity as the recipients of the charity. With overinflated salaries.

How could 100% of donations go anywhere? Someone is going to have to pay the bank, and pay the online payment provider, and pay to host the website, and pay to manage the website, and pay the accountant who manages the finances, and pay the HR person who recruits the staff to do the work.

Gregor Samsa · 09-04-2021 8:03pm

Lmkrnr wrote: »

How can you donate 10 ect quid to a charity knowing the CEO is getting 100k plus. Makes no sense. Your better off giving something direct to the person that needs it.

Let’s take the Irish Cancer Society as an example. One of the many services they provide is night nurses for people suffering from cancer.

Do you think it would be better for these people to arrange their own collection of fivers and tenners here and there, save it all up and then go and directly employ a nurse with the money themselves?

Charities aren’t just a conduit for money. Some of them provide services - much needed services that In themselves cost money to provide and arrange. Now, I don’t know if the individual salaries of the CEOs and admin staff are justified or not, but any charity providing professional services is going to have to hire professionals, and to fund those professionals, you need other professionals to be able to consistently bring the money in.

corner of hells · 09-04-2021 8:19pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Charity is basically a meaningless word in Ireland. They're companies run for the enrichment of the founders and staff.
When you have more employees of homeless charities than homeless people it's a clear con. Legally it may be fine but people assume they're giving their money for a cause, not to create jobs for the people working in the charities.

At the end of the day charities shouldn't be funded by the state. If a service is deemed essential by the state and money should be spent on it then do it. Otherwise you're funnelling hundreds of millions into a sector full of shysters.

Ive been working in charities for a long time provide support for people in addiction , experiencing homelessness, struggling with significant mental ill health.
The state does not jyst hand out money nowadays , most funding is delivered based on targeand KPIs being reached. Drop in services count foot fall of service users , NQSF standards must be adhered, staff must receive regular training and supervision, outcomes must reached .
Im paid a reasonable enough salary, its pays my bills, mortgage etc and provides for my family.
Im on a 7 day shift , that means rostered of Christmas, bank holidays etc and so on.
The state funds charities because it cheaper than employing staff and providing services directly themselves.

My caseload varies from chronic addicts, entrenched homeless often with significant physical mental and physical ill health.... im not a shyster , in fact none of my colleagues could deemed shysters.

JP Liz V1 · 09-04-2021 8:22pm

fryup wrote: »

never realised until recently that charities had ceo's and boards of management....i always presumed that they were run by volunteers top to bottom

maybe i'm just too innocent

I thought the same

YellowLead · 09-04-2021 8:30pm

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I thought the same

I have some shocking news for you both....Santa isn’t real....the government doesn’t print money but people pay taxes....

AndrewJRenko · 09-04-2021 9:22pm

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I thought the same

So did you think that every doctor, nurse, psychologist in the St John of God services all round the country were volunteers, providing services in their spare time?

Did you think that every nurse, psychologist, occupational therapist, speech therapist working in disability services like Brothers of Charity, Daughters of Charity, Rehab, Assist Ireland are all volunteeers, providing services in their spare time?

Eric Cartman · 10-04-2021 4:53am

When I was in college a charity scandal hit, myself and a friend tried to overcome the issue with a private organisation, we had an accountants firm specialising in auditing onboard, pur deal basically was we gave awards on 3 levels, bronze, silver and gold.

Bronze basically meant that 50% of donations made it to whatever concern you were donating to

Silver was 50% went to the concern and that the CEO’s salary & expenses was under 10% of total take

Gold was 70% of donations made it to the actual cause, CEO and all the high level execs combined salaries made up less than 15% of the entire take.

We talked to about 150 charities, over 100 point blank refused a free audit and certification, of the ones that allowed us audit most failed, id say abour 15 met the criteria for bronze , 0 silver or gold, of those that met the criteria for bronze a few asked that the gold and silver levels be scrapped so they had nothing to ‘work up to’

We scrapped the whole project , the lesson we learned is that the closest to ‘reputable’ charities are usually based around helping animals domestically and even then getting 50% of the money to truly help whatever cause is a struggle.

Needless to say I havent donated to anyone since

10-04-2021 9:31am

corner of hells wrote: »

Ive been working in charities for a long time provide support for people in addiction , experiencing homelessness, struggling with significant mental ill health.
The state does not jyst hand out money nowadays , most funding is delivered based on targeand KPIs being reached. Drop in services count foot fall of service users , NQSF standards must be adhered, staff must receive regular training and supervision, outcomes must reached .
Im paid a reasonable enough salary, its pays my bills, mortgage etc and provides for my family.
Im on a 7 day shift , that means rostered of Christmas, bank holidays etc and so on.
The state funds charities because it cheaper than employing staff and providing services directly themselves.

My caseload varies from chronic addicts, entrenched homeless often with significant physical mental and physical ill health.... im not a shyster , in fact none of my colleagues could deemed shysters.

I have often wondered if it might be more cost effective to have charities run totally by government departments. Say Environment take control of all the housing charities under one central office, thereby cutting down drastically on the repetition of admin, etc.
An expanded mental health department under health, etc.
Rather than going out begging/fundraising, just raise income tax and VAT by 1/2%
I’m a great believer in the saying that charity begins at home. Local charities tend to be run totally by volunteers and are more transparent. One larger one that comes to mind in one called Build4Life Cystic Fibrosis. It was set up to raise funds for dedicated cystic fibrosis units in University Hospital Cork. When it reached its target, it disbanded. No big office. No overpaid CEO.

whisky_galore · 10-04-2021 9:44am

Montage of Feck wrote: »

I've always been quite cynical about bothar and their methods. Sending out high maintenance European breeds to African farmers is very misguided in my opinion.

Expecting a heifer from Kildare to perform better than a native breed that has been there for thousands of years. Whiff of white man's burden about these kinds of charities too.

Corruption in charities

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