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Belfast Disturbances

Lougho

So approaching a disjointed marching season in North of Ireland for a second year running, Sandyrow and The waterside in Derry have now erupted with violent clashes.

Sandyrow seen officers injured and it is being blamed on the Irish sea border, within the community it seems the Royal bar leadership were arching up the tensions the past few weeks with banners at the front of the bar.

Is the LCC committed to non violent means or is it more Smoke and mirrors from the UDA and UVF. Donegal pass under the UVF and Sandyrow both came to a standstill last night.

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PokeHerKing

Seth Brundle wrote: »

A few minutes ago you weren't aware that he was even in the organisation.
Maybe you should inform yourself before you make any more bold claims!

If they informed themselves their mind would close in on itself like a black hole. Ignorance is the only way they stay upright.

RandomViewer

Hate is a very Irish thing, I know of feuds between neighbours that have gone on for 3 and 4 generations, its nearly always about land and this is no different

briany

RandomViewer wrote: »

Hate is a very Irish thing, I know of feuds between neighbours that have gone on for 3 and 4 generations, its nearly always about land and this is no different

I think we'd need to conduct some sort of anthropological study in other countries before we could decide that farmers rowing over land is a uniquely Irish phenomenon.

My own personal suspicion is that hate is a dark part of the human condition.

igCorcaigh

https://twitter.com/qnewsdesk/status/1380234123609006080

Penfailed

downcow wrote: »

Ian paisley senior was never in the Orange so I don’t know how he would move away from it

Eh? That isn't what was said.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Ok you a factually correct on this point but you are completely wrong on you original point that he moved away from the institution because he had became moderate.
What were other posters meant to think.
He left the orange 60 years ago because it was too moderate for him. A very different story than you were spinning

The point about Ian Paisley's journey, was separate to the point about the Orange Order as was the point about Unionists behaving themselves on the 12th.

You made a boo boo, don't seem to know your own culture's history. Twice today you have been wrong on the history. Your problem not mine.

[Deleted User]

Is there a pecking order between the Independent Orange Order and the Orange Order?

Probably a bit like the different republican groups taking their turns marking Easter Monday.

igCorcaigh

https://twitter.com/qnewsdesk/status/1380244581678264328

Tell me how

Kieran Cuddihy sums up just where Belfast is in UK minds right now.

https://twitter.com/NewstalkFM/status/1380199029062111234

This is what Arlene and Sammy et al. begged so much to remain a part of.

igCorcaigh

Tell me how wrote: »

This is what Arlene and Sammy et al. begged so much to remain a part of.

Where else can they go?
Do you think the PUL community will be treated with respect in a UI?

I hope they would be, but their perception of it may be different.

Is there any alternative?
Is an independent NI viable at all?

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The point about Ian Paisley's journey, was separate to the point about the Orange Order as was the point about Unionists behaving themselves on the 12th.

You made a boo boo, don't seem to know your own culture's history. Twice today you have been wrong on the history. Your problem not mine.

After seeing the aftermath of last nights riots(petrol bombs thrown both ways etc) around the peace gates I think nit picking about Ian Paisley pales into insignificance. How can you imagine a UI is a possibility when its obvious there are insurmountable differences between communities?

briany

Throwing petrol bombs in Belfast isn't really a novel enough thing to make newspaper headlines. Not that this is something I want to see happen at all, but I suppose it's true to say that these Loyalist gangs will have to up the ante if they want people to pay attention to them.

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

A few minutes ago you weren't aware that he was even in the organisation.
Maybe you should inform yourself before you make any more bold claims!

No problem admitting I was mistaken. Pity the other guys can’t admit they were mistaken as they implied he had moved away from it when he became more ‘moderate’ haha did he go all moderate in 1962 lol And we have people posting pictures of him wearing a ABOD sash and implying it is an orange sash.
So yes I was wrong. Woe is me. I am sorry.
But I wasn’t as wrong as those having a go at me.

igCorcaigh

briany wrote: »

Throwing petrol bombs in Belfast isn't really a novel enough thing to make newspaper headlines. Not that this is something I want to see happen at all, but I suppose it's true to say that these Loyalist gangs will have to up the ante if they want people to pay attention to them.

In some ways, it should be ignored.

But in other ways, this is how voice is expressed, and it's a voice that should be listened to.

This is NI, and is how these things happen.

No side of a losing referendum, or excluded people in ROI ever resorted to rioting.

RobMc59

briany wrote: »

Throwing petrol bombs in Belfast isn't really a novel enough thing to make newspaper headlines. Not that this is something I want to see happen at all, but I suppose it's true to say that these Loyalist gangs will have to up the ante if they want people to pay attention to them.

Well it`s headline news on all British news programmes.

Tpcl20

igCorcaigh wrote: »

https://twitter.com/qnewsdesk/status/1380244581678264328

Jesus christ they brought out the water cannons the minute the Nationalists came out with a few stones.

The loyalists have been there for a week setting shyte alight and nothing but as soon as a few from the other side appear it's the literal big guns.

Disgusting.

downcow

briany wrote: »

Throwing petrol bombs in Belfast isn't really a novel enough thing to make newspaper headlines. Not that this is something I want to see happen at all, but I suppose it's true to say that these Loyalist gangs will have to up the ante if they want people to pay attention to them.

I understand it’s nationalists outperforming loyalists tonight.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You made a boo boo, don't seem to know your own culture's history.

Indeed, I remember DC's disbelief when I wrote that Paisley's fundamentalist religious sect make up the largest denomination in the DUP despite numbering fewer than 15,000 members in all of the North (not to mention membership of the Orange Order being even more prevalent)

Professor Jonathan Tonge ... findings reveal that Free Presbyterianism, the tiny denomination founded by Ian Paisley, still remains the largest faith among both DUP members and elected representatives. The Orange Order is even more dominant, counting the majority of DUP elected representatives and more than a third of party members among its ranks.

belfasttelegraph.co.uk

Can you imagine the dominant political party in the Dail having the largest faction in its ranks as members of the 'Legion of Mary' or some other fundamentalist Catholic organisation?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The point about Ian Paisley's journey, was separate to the point about the Orange Order as was the point about Unionists behaving themselves on the 12th.

You made a boo boo, don't seem to know your own culture's history. Twice today you have been wrong on the history. Your problem not mine.

Lol. If you think my culture revolves around Ian paisleys membersip of the orange order in the 1950s

Tell me how

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Where else can they go?
Do you think the PUL community will be treated with respect in a UI?

For the most part, yes, but there would definitely be some who would seek to make them feel like they 'lost' like they were abandoned or that they are unwanted. And similarly there would be a minority but influential and fangerous section within their community who would seek to be particularly forceful on what conditions had to be met for them to feel 'accepted' within a United Ireland. I suspect the tricolour, amhran na bhfiann would go at the very least. Could be looking at a national government splitting its time between Dail Eireann and Stormont also.

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Is there any alternative?
Is an independent NI viable at all?

Viable? I don't think so, people from both sides (nationalist and unionist would seek to undermine a sovereign state in an attempt to initiate a move towards a UI (for the nationalists) and back to the UK (for the unionists).

But, it might be necessary to transition to a UI because if they split from the UK, I don't see that bridge being built again.
In simple terms, it's not economically viable to go as a standalone state, it is too reliant on funding. And were it to become a sovereign state, the issue of the border remains.

igCorcaigh

Tell me how wrote: »

For the most part, yes, but there would definitely be some who would seek to make them feel like they 'lost' like they were abandoned or that they are unwanted. And similarly there would be a minority but influential and fangerous section within their community who would seek to be particularly forceful on what conditions had to be met for them to feel 'accepted' within a United Ireland. I suspect the tricolour, amhran na bhfiann would go at the very least. Could be looking at a national government splitting its time between Dail Eireann and Stormont also.

Viable? I don't think so, people from both sides (nationalist and unionist would seek to undermine a sovereign state in an attempt to initiate a move towards a UI (for the nationalists) and back to the UK (for the unionists).

But, it might be necessary to transition to a UI because if they split from the UK, I don't see that bridge being built again.
In simple terms, it's not economically viable to go as a standalone state, it is too reliant on funding. And were it to become a sovereign state, the issue of the border remains.

Thank you for your insight.

What a mess we have on our hands lads.

I hope the sensible of us all lead the way, however which way it goes.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Lol. If you think my culture revolves around Ian paisleys membersip of the orange order in the 1950s

Why did you jump in to comment if you didn't know?

Frank Bullitt

Multi uses for this meme.

afro man

Tpcl20 wrote: »

Jesus christ they brought out the water cannons the minute the Nationalists came out with a few stones.

The loyalists have been there for a week setting shyte alight and nothing but as soon as a few from the other side appear it's the literal big guns.

Disgusting.

Are you really that suprised.. double standards yet again by the impartiall police force

hometruths

Tell me how wrote: »

For the most part, yes, but there would definitely be some who would seek to make them feel like they 'lost' like they were abandoned or that they are unwanted. And similarly there would be a minority but influential and fangerous section within their community who would seek to be particularly forceful on what conditions had to be met for them to feel 'accepted' within a United Ireland. I suspect the tricolour, amhran na bhfiann would go at the very least. Could be looking at a national government splitting its time between Dail Eireann and Stormont also.

Do we really want this? If the price of a UI is giving up our national flag and national anthem, and whatever else about our national identity and culture triggers Unionists, is it a price worth paying?

I am not convinced it is. I am certain that if the price includes some sort of all island power sharing agreement with the DUP sitting at cabinet irrespective of their vote numbers, then that is far too high a price for me to stomach.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why did you jump in to comment if you didn't know?

Probably the same reason you said that he moved away from it when he became moderate.
We were both wrong.
I have admitted I was wrong but our resident republican (surprise surprise) can never admit wrong.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

No problem admitting I was mistaken. Pity the other guys can’t admit they were mistaken as they implied he had moved away from it when he became more ‘moderate’ haha did he go all moderate in 1962 lol And we have people posting pictures of him wearing a ABOD sash and implying it is an orange sash.
So yes I was wrong. Woe is me. I am sorry.
But I wasn’t as wrong as those having a go at me.

That's like Arlene's tweet last night. This is wrong but themuns are more wrong :rolleyes:

downcow

schmittel wrote: »

Do we really want this? If the price of a UI is giving up our national flag and national anthem, and whatever else about our national identity and culture triggers Unionists, is it a price worth paying?

I am not convinced it is. I am certain that if the price includes some sort of all island power sharing agreement with the DUP sitting at cabinet irrespective of their vote numbers, then that is far too high a price for me to stomach.

That’s the price we have to stomach at the minute in Stormont. And you are right, it is the road to no town

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

That's like Arlene's tweet last night. This is wrong but themuns are more wrong :rolleyes:

No doubt.
Republicans never admit wrongdoing eg story funeral and Francie above

Tell me how

schmittel wrote: »

Do we really want this? If the price of a UI is giving up our national flag and national anthem, and whatever else about our national identity and culture triggers Unionists, is it a price worth paying?

I am not convinced it is. I am certain that if the price includes some sort of all island power sharing agreement with the DUP sitting at cabinet irrespective of their vote numbers, then that is far too high a price for me to stomach.

You probably wouldn't be alone. But, iirc, the GFA calls for specific exploration of how our Union heritage would be acknowledged and celebrated within a new UI.

One thing we have seen with Brexit, is just how problematic things are if left until a decision has been made before discussing such things. Some days I think Brexit itself has delayed any serious talk of a UI for at least a generation, but then when I see things like what is going on in the north as a consequence of Brexit, I think it might have moved it forward.

There's another thread on here about a UI, it's probably bringing this discussion too far off topic to go in to it much further here.