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Child Item

Appeal primary school over change in application form during admission process

fearanphoist

Hi all

If a school changed its admission form since publishing the admission notice because they didn’t accommodate this years changes ref the new admission act and say nothing to you until the board are ready to review it, does this warrant an appeal ?

Other Parents where told up to a week before and could look into this more never to mention people who by fluke download the new one. The school review probably won’t accept they made an error and the department appeal just looks at the policy which doesn’t have a process to deal with this issue .

None of these methods will help in this case but it did create an significant disadvantage in the process IMO. It would probably end up in court, wonder how much that would cost and is it worth it . Schools have too much power still!

Thanks

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Big Bag of Chips

There's a lot of "probably" in that post and I'm not sure I understand it.

Has a decision been made that has negatively impacted anyone's place in the school? If nothing has happened yet, then the school probably will accept all enrolment forms as valid. If there's an issue they will probably ask the people who submitted on the incorrect forms to resubmit the application on the new form whilst still allowing them their place on the waiting list (if there is one) according to when their application was first sent in.

fearanphoist

Hi ,

Suppose so......i'll try again

. its in relation to a Primary Gaelscoil and the new changes that came in due to the change in admissions this year. The school hadn't this information on the first application form which determined the criteria selection in the policy. ( we found all this out afterwards )

Yes a decision has been made not to award our child a place. They asked us to fill out the new form 22 days after we submitted the old form (first application form). We filled out the form to the best of our knowledge and returned it in 30 minutes after the call from the school as the board was reviewing the forms that day.

My point is other parents got the phone call a week before that and had time to re submit, as we found out in hindsight. in this timeframe they received extra information from other parents and playschool teachers before they resubmitted.

My point is the error in the application had created an unfair process.

Our review was rejected as they said they followed the policy. ( policy doesnt handle a process to change in application form during the process). The department appeal hasnt the scope to judge an issue outside the policy and they acknowledged this in the appeal disallow.

not sure if this makes sense but the point is the application process was unfair in our mind.

anyway the only option to look at this now is the legal route.

does this make sense and what do you think ?

Thanks

ShamoBuc

Did they tell you why exactly your child did not get a place?

E.g. all successful applicants had siblings in the school, yours didn't.

fearanphoist

Hi

Yes they went through the criteria selection process as per the policy. 70% got in on siblings and the rest on fluency in Irish, criteria 2 ( the new question that they changed the form for). criteria 3 and 4 per the policy admitted no children. They told us the criteria we belong to and we are there because of the change in question and we selected No instead of yes as it looks now.

The question they changed on the form was got to do with criteria 2 of the policy in hindsight. This wasnt covered on the form I downloaded at the start.

So when parents got told at different times that the form had changed, we found out last minute ( after the application end date) but other parents had at least a week ( before closing) since been notified. They asked the Naionra teachers and had time to absorb the change. These parents told us that they would have selected no, that their child had no fluency but the teacher in the Naionra guided them to say yes and the next step is that the school would request a video of the child and you be fine . This was the exact case! These children got a place .

My point on this issue that the change in application form and in particular not notifying parents all the same time created an unfair process. The admission policy doesn't cater for how the school changes an application form during the process and they can do what they like as they wont be judged. I think its crazy as the application form is the input mechanism to the selection criteria in the policy. Some process should be stated somewhere on how this element is handled.

Anyway it seems the review by the school board and the department appeal gives the parents no power in the appeal process for a fair hearing, once its outside the admission policy. They are failing to see the disadvantage they created by each parent having the different timeline with the "correct" application form.

The question on fluency in particular for a Gaelscoil admission is a big change to the process for these schools this year ( as we have learned the hard way)and we feel it was a mistake at the start by the school not to handle this. They changed the form close to 11pm at night before the opening date. How can you track the changes with this behaviour. The admission notice goes up a week before opening dates at least, and at this stage the application form should be correct as the parents will download it in readiness.

I dont know, its a shame you spend so much time preparing for this and then this happened to us. We are gutted.

The only way to go now is to court where they wont judge us on the admission policy alone and equality might enter the judgement.

Feel free to add your opinion , thanks

jlm29

OP, I would just pick a different school and move on. It’s a bit s**t that your kid didn’t get into your first choice of school, but I certainly wouldn’t be going to court over it.

fearanphoist

Maybe and its a fair point but then if you had further context, its in walking distance and now we have to drive 25 minutes each way, 6 times a day ( at least for next 4 years as we have 3 daughters ) to the next choice of school for the next 12 years on a mistake that could have been avoided. Yes life is harsh of course , but people need to own up to their actions.

I wouldn't need to go to court if the appeal process considered my argument but it cant because it wasn't designed this way , court is the only way to deal with anything that the school does incorrectly outside of the admission policy.

Only my opinion but the power still resides with the school and the departments appeal process only factors in the admission policy , which isn't always 100% correct but it doesn't matter to them. If a school wants to treat you unfairly outside of this, we go back to pre 2000's of 100% power to the schools.

banie01

Can I clarify some points?
School updated their enrolment policy and forms to ensure new department guidelines were met.

On the new form, the criteria were,
1.Siblings in school,
2.fluency in Irish,
3.not clarified
4.not clarified.

You mention that on the new form, you answered no to fluency in Irish?
So regardless of when you completed the form, your child was in category 3 or below?

The school filled it's available places with students from categories 1 and 2.
Presumably with applicants who all filled out the same form, whenever it was filled out.
So if the above is all correct?
What grounds was the decision not to offer your child a place unreasonable?
Other than being inconvenient?

Sarn

I can understand your frustration. Unfortunately, it is likely that the school will just say that they gave you the opportunity to submit the new form and that they followed their admissions policy.

If I understand correctly, you truthfully put down ‘No’ for question 2, in relation to your child’s fluency. The issue is that other parents had the chance to get some insider knowledge on how best to fill in the form to improve their chances. I imagine that there were a lot of other parents that didn’t think of that and answered truthfully, costing them a place. While it is a poor system that can be manipulated, I’m not sure how a court action would resolve the issue.

beauf

In my limited experience schools and parishes pretty much do what they like with admission policies. One I was familiar with got rid of length of residency policy as a criteria. Now wonder why they have endless problems with kids being driven to school and traffic and parking issues. Also why they get a lot of local objections with any new development or expansion at the school. Caused no end of chaos with kids being unable to go to local schools, and split from their peer groups and communities.

Even if it wasn't a criteria I would be dubious of answering negatively to questions on admissions form. There's always a risk. Considering people pull all sorts of scams to get into schools.

If you have deep pockets nothing to lose except money going legal. No Idea what the success rate is.
I suspect the admission policy change was carefully considered though. They tend to very deliberately written.

jlm29

fearanphoist wrote: »

Maybe and its a fair point but then if you had further context, its in walking distance and now we have to drive 25 minutes each way, 6 times a day ( at least for next 4 years as we have 3 daughters ) to the next choice of school for the next 12 years on a mistake that could have been avoided. Yes life is harsh of course , but people need to own up to their actions.

I wouldn't need to go to court if the appeal process considered my argument but it cant because it wasn't designed this way , court is the only way to deal with anything that the school does incorrectly outside of the admission policy.

Only my opinion but the power still resides with the school and the departments appeal process only factors in the admission policy , which isn't always 100% correct but it doesn't matter to them. If a school wants to treat you unfairly outside of this, we go back to pre 2000's of 100% power to the schools.

To be honest, it sounds like you were misfortunate that there were so many siblings. Unfortunately that happens sometimes, it’s the luck of the draw. If everyone had known to tick a box that said their child was fluent, they’d have had a surplus of children meeting the second category criteria and it would have been a lottery (I would surmise), so you might not have got a place anyhow?
Is there not a school closer than 25 minutes away?

fearanphoist

Hi all, thank you for the insights and replies

criteria 3 was if you had a brother/sister there before
criteria 4 is age i.e oldest in Q

"What grounds was the decision not to offer your child a place unreasonable? - they didn't give each parent a fair opportunity , they said to the department and myself that they informed everyone together at the end - this is lies ( and they are covering a mistake in my eyes ) as verified by other parents and cost us a place, we would of got the criteria 4 position as a younger child has got a place this year. anyways.......

my overall argument is they should have a provision for how they deal with this form change in the admission policy.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that they copied a template of the policy like most gaelscoils this year from the department website to guide them with the new changes. They keep as much out of the policy so then they cant be judged on the review / appeal .

We applied to 5 Gaelscoils and get an offer 25 minutes away as they have 2 streams of classes and we missed this one (mentioned) due to the inexperience of the new principal to have the correct form in place from the start.

If you update an admission policy you would imagine they would update the application form. tough luck on someone else's mistake.

Anyways sent an overview to the family solicitor and see what he thinks , might as well at this stage. If a school wants to create an unfair process then they need to stand up to their mistake. The fact that parents were informed of this mistake up to 7 days before closing and the school denying it warrants a closer look IMO.

banie01

fearanphoist wrote: »

Hi,

criteria 3 was if you had a brother/sister there before
criteria 4 is age i.e oldest in Q

"What grounds was the decision not to offer your child a place unreasonable? - they didnt each parent a fair opportunity , they said to the department and myself that they informed everyone together at the end - this is lies and cost us a place.

Your argument should you chose to take a case will be that other parents were offered more time to prepare a lie.
You cannot win a review(or any case) via Fraud, and the only means you have of entering cohort 2 is by lying regarding the fluency question.

The change in form and it's delay in getting to you is unfortunate.
However all applicants used that form and were assessed on the questions within as such no unfair advantage accrued to other parents as the school must judge each application on the information contained.
However, if you answered the fluency question honestly?
The likely outcome of a judicial review is that all forms are assessed on their completed details.

The honesty of answers given by other parents cannot by either impugned or adduced and as such.
Your answer of non fluency, being truthful and accurate placed you in the correct cohort.
That means you are still in cohort 3 and that the waiting list would run to offering unsuccessful applicants in cohort 2 a place before proceeding to cohort 3.

fearanphoist

I dont know where you are getting the lie and fraud part from ........... please this is nothing to do with what I am taking about . I dont believe other parents lied they just got the time to probe further into the new form, some parents up to 2 weeks before closing.

Its about fairness . so if all parents got the same chance and time to fill in the form thats all i am saying .

If everyone got the inside track on the question so be it, it goes to the next criteria etc. then its fair.

that last point is way off what I am saying here.

lulublue22

fearanphoist wrote: »

I dont know where you are getting the lie and fraud part from ........... please this is nothing to do with what I am taking about . I dont believe other parents lied they just got the time to probe further into the new form, some parents up to 2 weeks before closing.

Its about fairness . so if all parents got the same chance and time to fill in the form thats all i am saying .

If everyone got the inside track on the question so be it, it goes to the next criteria etc. then its fair.

that last point is way off what I am saying here.

So if you had more time to fill in the form you would have answered yes to the fluency question as opposed to no ?
I understand you are frustrated but if you answered honestly re the fluency then it makes little difference if you had two weeks or two hours to fill in the form. You did not meet criteria 2. Unfortunately it seems that a lot of others did which resulted in you being placed on a waiting list for a place.

killbillvol2

fearanphoist wrote: »

I dont know where you are getting the lie and fraud part from ........... please this is nothing to do with what I am taking about . I dont believe other parents lied they just got the time to probe further into the new form, some parents up to 2 weeks before closing.

Its about fairness . so if all parents got the same chance and time to fill in the form thats all i am saying .

If everyone got the inside track on the question so be it, it goes to the next criteria etc. then its fair.

that last point is way off what I am saying here.

Seriously, how much time do you need to tick a box that your child is either fluent or not?

banie01

fearanphoist wrote: »

I dont know where you are getting the lie and fraud part from ........... please this is nothing to do with what I am taking about . I dont believe other parents lied they just got the time to probe further into the new form, some parents up to 2 weeks before closing.

Its about fairness . so if all parents got the same chance and time to fill in the form thats all i am saying .

If everyone got the inside track on the question so be it, it goes to the next criteria etc. then its fair.

that last point is way off what I am saying here.

To win a judicial review you must prove that the process used to arrive at the decision was unfair in a manner which affected your being considered for a place.

If each and every applicant filled out the same form, it will be assumed that each and every applicant answered all questions honestly.
With that assumption foremost, you answered no to the fluency question and as such are in the 3rd cohort.

So without changing your answer to the fluency question?
How do you move into cohort 2 and a higher place on any waiting list?

ShamoBuc

If the reason why your child did not get a place is down to the fluency question, if you had another week or 2 to fill out the form, would you not have filled it out the same way? Same as other parents? Having more time to probe the form, should not make any difference I think, how could it?
You are fluent or you or not.
Your child went to a Naoínra or did not etc

beauf

I think the point is if you say the child is fluent and isn't you have some chance of being accepted. If you say no you have none.

That realisation only happened after a bit of time to think about it.

ForestFire

What does Fluence in Irish mean for a 4/5 yo child?
Is there a test to determine this?

The reason I ask is that, I think, this question is very subjective, especially at this age. Going to a Naoínra, on its own, does not mean your child is anywhere near fluent. Our 7yo took this exact route and is now in a Gaelscoil, but she was not fluent in Irish at the time, far from it. We were told she will be fluent buy the time she leaves primary, though! (And being fluent was not a criteria for us 3 years ago).

The only way a 5yo child can really be fluent, is if they are brought up with Irish as their first language, and unless this school in in a gaeltacht or there is an influx of Irish speaking parent in this area, are all the other children really fluent in Irish, or just have the basics, taught from a young age, and enough for parents to tick that box??

Have all children that were accepted, confirmed to be fluent?
If it is evident, that they are not fluent, when the school year starts, what happens then?
I mean, if this is the second criteria on the form, they should have some way to validate it?

But also what is the goal of the Gaelscoils anyway? (Wider issues below)

Our Gaelscoil has many children from immigrant families, including Africans, and some of these children are some of the best speakers of the language now (4 children in one family we know), having had the chance to attend the Gaelscoil.

Isn't the point of the Gaelscoil to promote the language, to the wider community and to extend it use, to those who cannot learn it fully at home? Being fluent as an entry criteria kind of defeats this purpose, and possible restricts access, for a lot of irish families and other communities that what their children to learn.

If the child is really fluent, and will continue home life, fully through Irish, is there a even a need to attend a primary Gaelscoil?

beauf

They do an interview.

But the reality its a filter on the list.
You could argue those with a genuine interest with have passed it on to the child. But equally it could be to favour a certain feeder school.

You could interpret it a few ways.

GAAcailin

HI,
So you are saying that the School has awarded places to children that are not native speakers because their parents have 'lied' on the form and stated that they are?

Can you not contact the School and make them aware of this.
It seems odd, my kids attend a local Gaelscoil and when a Parent/Guardian states on the Application form that they are raising the children through Irish, unless the Parents are 'known' to the school they will follow up with a phone call etc and check this out.
Our criteria is as below:

1. Siblings of children currently in the school or who have attended the school in the past.
2. Children of current staff members in the school.
3. Children who are being raised through Irish i.e. Irish is the primary language of
communication in the family. (appropriate evidence may be provided by applicant)
4. Children in the area according to the waiting list.

Its still early days and places may be freed up over the coming months; many families in my area accept places in multiple schools and spend months deliberating. Its very unfair as others are left with no school place until the last minute

killbillvol2

GAAcailin wrote: »

HI,
So you are saying that the School has awarded places to children that are not native speakers because their parents have 'lied' on the form and stated that they are?

Can you not contact the School and make them aware of this.
It seems odd, my kids attend a local Gaelscoil and when a Parent/Guardian states on the Application form that they are raising the children through Irish, unless the Parents are 'known' to the school they will follow up with a phone call etc and check this out.
Our criteria is as below:

1. Siblings of children currently in the school or who have attended the school in the past.
2. Children of current staff members in the school.
3. Children who are being raised through Irish i.e. Irish is the primary language of
communication in the family. (appropriate evidence may be provided by applicant)
4. Children in the area according to the waiting list.

Its still early days and places may be freed up over the coming months; many families in my area accept places in multiple schools and spend months deliberating. Its very unfair as others are left with no school place until the last minute

Buried in all the rambling about legal action etc. they state that the school checks the fluency of the children who've applied. So a parent who ticked yes will have to back it up.

The other thing that struck me was that teachers in the naoinra had advised some parents to tick yes. That would logically suggest to me that, firstly, those children were attending the naoinra and, secondly, that the teachers there thought they had enough fluency to satisfy the school's criteria.

fearanphoist

Hi Folks

Some interesting comments and interpretations. We could discuss this for a long time. What I have learnt and it may help other parents is that the new changes with Gaelscoils in particular is that they ask you about fluency , its not really Yes my Son is or He is Not. what they mean is have they a "level" of Irish. Hindsight is great. I took it as meaning yes he is or he isnt , not the case really.

Some things have changed for 2021 onwards and the level of fluency is one of the key criteria.

If any parent is doing research and comes across this it might help them with the application going forward. They dont do interviews anymore ( except waiting lists they might still apply for 5 years) and cant take into consideration the Naionra attendance.

The level of fluency Q , the answer is yes and then the school ask you to send in a video for proof. They are not allowed categorise the proof and will move you onto the next criteria option.

Anyway thanks for the comments and feedback , hope this helps other parents on the road to educating their paisti through irish.

beauf

killbillvol2 wrote: »

....
The other thing that struck me was that teachers in the naoinra had advised some parents to tick yes. That would logically suggest to me that, firstly, those children were attending the naoinra and, secondly, that the teachers there thought they had enough fluency to satisfy the school's criteria...

.. Also they got the impression they wouldn't be considered unless they ticked yes....

starbaby2003

ForestFire wrote: »

What does Fluence in Irish mean for a 4/5 yo child?
Is there a test to determine this?

The reason I ask is that, I think, this question is very subjective, especially at this age. Going to a Naoínra, on its own, does not mean your child is anywhere near fluent. Our 7yo took this exact route and is now in a Gaelscoil, but she was not fluent in Irish at the time, far from it. We were told she will be fluent buy the time she leaves primary, though! (And being fluent was not a criteria for us 3 years ago).

The only way a 5yo child can really be fluent, is if they are brought up with Irish as their first language, and unless this school in in a gaeltacht or there is an influx of Irish speaking parent in this area, are all the other children really fluent in Irish, or just have the basics, taught from a young age, and enough for parents to tick that box??

Have all children that were accepted, confirmed to be fluent?
If it is evident, that they are not fluent, when the school year starts, what happens then?
I mean, if this is the second criteria on the form, they should have some way to validate it?

But also what is the goal of the Gaelscoils anyway? (Wider issues below)

Our Gaelscoil has many children from immigrant families, including Africans, and some of these children are some of the best speakers of the language now (4 children in one family we know), having had the chance to attend the Gaelscoil.

Isn't the point of the Gaelscoil to promote the language, to the wider community and to extend it use, to those who cannot learn it fully at home? Being fluent as an entry criteria kind of defeats this purpose, and possible restricts access, for a lot of irish families and other communities that what their children to learn.

If the child is really fluent, and will continue home life, fully through Irish, is there a even a need to attend a primary Gaelscoil?

I know of at least two GaelScoil’s that do ‘interviews’ to see if the child is fluent.

ForestFire

(Warning...Just Slightly off topic and probable little help to the OP at this stage)

This is from an article in 2017 at the bottom of this post....so I wonder what has happened since then....

Is it due to there success that they are so much more popular?
Do we have many more parents teaching their children Irish now, from younger ages?

Again what is now the purpose of the Gaelscoileanna?
Are they now a victim of their own success((or the Kids)?
Do we need to have many more opened, to support the growing demand, and do we have the teachers to support this.

In a way it's a good thing, I suppose that they are so popular now, but also they seem to be becoming more exclusive at the same time, which is ashame.

"Entry criteria
Ó hÉadhra also says the issue of schools listing entry criteria is down to a lack of places, and that the numbers of places being reserved for children from Irish-speaking backgrounds is minuscule.

“The percentage of place being reserved for children raised through the medium of Irish is tiny, 3 per cent at most. It is not a case that across the board children are being denied places because they or their parents don’t have Irish.”

Ó hÉadhra says it is not in the interests of Gaelscoileanna to make their schools more niche or discourage those from non-Irish speaking backgrounds as they want to promote Gaelscoileanna.

“If we weren’t supporting families who have not raised their children through Irish, it would raise serious questions about what we are doing,” he adds.
"

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/why-is-it-so-hard-to-get-a-place-in-a-gaelscoil-1.2984851

jlm29

ForestFire wrote: »

(Warning...Just Slightly off topic and probable little help to the OP at this stage)

This is from an article in 2017 at the bottom of this post....so I wonder what has happened since then....

Is it due to there success that they are so much more popular?
Do we have many more parents teaching their children Irish now, from younger ages?

Again what is now the purpose of the Gaelscoileanna?
Are they now a victim of their own success((or the Kids)?
Do we need to have many more opened, to support the growing demand, and do we have the teachers to support this.

In a way it's a good thing, I suppose that they are so popular now, but also they seem to be becoming more exclusive at the same time, which is ashame.

"Entry criteria
Ó hÉadhra also says the issue of schools listing entry criteria is down to a lack of places, and that the numbers of places being reserved for children from Irish-speaking backgrounds is minuscule.

“The percentage of place being reserved for children raised through the medium of Irish is tiny, 3 per cent at most. It is not a case that across the board children are being denied places because they or their parents don’t have Irish.”

Ó hÉadhra says it is not in the interests of Gaelscoileanna to make their schools more niche or discourage those from non-Irish speaking backgrounds as they want to promote Gaelscoileanna.

“If we weren’t supporting families who have not raised their children through Irish, it would raise serious questions about what we are doing,” he adds.
"

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/why-is-it-so-hard-to-get-a-place-in-a-gaelscoil-1.2984851

I’d row in on this and say I don’t see the major attraction of a Gaelscoil over a non-Gaelscoil. I wouldn’t be driving 25 min out of my way 6 times a day to send my child to one.

banie01

jlm29 wrote: »

I’d row in on this and say I don’t see the major attraction of a Gaelscoil over a non-Gaelscoil. I wouldn’t be driving 25 min out of my way 6 times a day to send my child to one.

If I was a Gaelgoir I could certainly see the benefit.
IIRC the 2 of the top 5 secondary schools in my area are Gael Cholaiste and one of those is the top rated secondary in the country.

There is always the argument to be made that teaching wholly in Irish also imparts a greater affinity/ability in other languages too.
There is the cultural benefit.
On top of all that though some would definitely argue that they are exclusionary "Irish only" spaces by inference at the very least, aswell as aspirationally elitist.

GAAcailin

Did your child attend the Naíonra associated with the School? Schools can no longer use this as a preference for entry to a Primary School.

You can appeal the decision based on Section 29;

From Citizens Advice

If a school refuses to enrol your child because it is oversubscribed, you must first request the school’s board of management to review this decision. You must make your request for a review using the Board of Management Request Form (BOMR1). The board of management must notify you of the outcome of your request for a review within 42 days from the date of the decision to refuse admission to the school.

You can make a Section 29 appeal to the Department of Education, once you have received the outcome of the review by the board or 42 days after the decision to refuse admission was made - whichever of these is earliest. However, your Section 29 appeal to the Department of Education must be made no later than 63 days following the original decision by the school to refuse admission. You make your appeal using a Section 29 appeal application form. The Department has Frequently Asked Questions about Section 29 appeals when a school is oversubscribed.

jlm29

banie01 wrote: »

If I was a Gaelgoir I could certainly see the benefit.
IIRC the 2 of the top 5 secondary schools in my area are Gael Cholaiste and one of those is the top rated secondary in the country.

There is always the argument to be made that teaching wholly in Irish also imparts a greater affinity/ability in other languages too.
There is the cultural benefit.
On top of all that though some would definitely argue that they are exclusionary "Irish only" spaces by inference at the very least, aswell as aspirationally elitist.

The OP isn’t a Gaelgoir, it would seem from the OP, presumably if they were they’d be speaking Irish at home, and the children would be fluent, so the issue wouldn’t have arisen.
There are other benefits, certainly, but I don’t think that they outweigh the inconvenience that the OP has outlined in their posts.