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Belfast Disturbances

Lougho

So approaching a disjointed marching season in North of Ireland for a second year running, Sandyrow and The waterside in Derry have now erupted with violent clashes.

Sandyrow seen officers injured and it is being blamed on the Irish sea border, within the community it seems the Royal bar leadership were arching up the tensions the past few weeks with banners at the front of the bar.

Is the LCC committed to non violent means or is it more Smoke and mirrors from the UDA and UVF. Donegal pass under the UVF and Sandyrow both came to a standstill last night.

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[Deleted User]

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Listening to Arlene repeat calls for PSNI Chief Constable Simon Byrne to step down I wondered is he a Catholic and this possibly was another reason for her demand?

Ah, the DUP have been gunning for him since he got the job, I don't know if his background has anything to do with it and more the possibility that he won't be as likely to have their corner in certain situations.

As usual, they rile up loyalists while at the same time, weakly discourage them from riots.

"I say to young people who are angry, do not get yourself a criminal record. It will blight your life for the rest of your life, you won't be able to go on holiday, so please, please desist from this violence."

You won't be able to go on holiday? C'mon now, that's ****ing weak. A better approach would be to point out that they are destroying their own communities, that their behaviour has a direct effect on the quality of life of those around them and themselves.

Nope. You get caught rioting, you might not be able to head off to Benidorm (which has already been made more difficult by Brexit. I hope the irony isn't lost on them).

I caught a snippet of Gregory Campbell on the Claire Byrne show. He was his usual self, disrespectful and laughing at everyone else. His claims of a border poll never happening are full of fear.

If it's never going to happen, then why not discuss it in good faith? Who knows, maybe some Nationalists may see Unionism from a different perspective. The DUP are incapable of genuine bridge building, there is absolutely no desire to share power or reach compromises with anyone around them. Christ, they even done it to the Tories.

As with most things though, it's a minority causing issues and the general population don't agree with disturbances like this. People in the North are the same as people anywhere else, roof over heads, food on the table, healthcare, education, jobs etc. That's what's really important.

By the time a border poll rolls around, I'd say Unionist votes will have moved towards Alliance and a modernised UUP. This will be the only way for their voices to be heard is such a huge decision, the DUP will blindly walk the last hardcore Unionists into a United Ireland without a voice.

Kermit.de.frog

O'Neill wrote: »

I know it's been picked up by a few UK media sources but overall I'm baffled but not surprised how quiet this story has been talked about in the UK media or by the UK Governenment for that matter.

They.dont.care

Even at the height of the troubles they never cared.

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

Plenty of Spanish people have never been to Portugal, and vice versa. It isn't that unusual.

I'll leave aside the ludicrousness of comparing the relationship between Spain and Portugal to Northern Ireland and the republic but I'll remind you that Stephen Nolan continuously claims to be unbiased. Irish people in Northern Ireland unsurprisingly feel more Irish than British therefore feel a strong connection to the republic of Ireland.

Stephen Nolan didn't bother to even pop south of the border to visit a country that's important to the listeners he claims to be unbiased against.

O'Neill

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They.dont.care

Even at the height of the troubles they never cared.

I mean I haven't even heard anything from Brandon Lewis who's supposed to be our Sectary of State :eek: I'm aware he met with Loyalist leaders a few weeks ago or so.

Hamsterchops

circadian wrote: »

By the time a border poll rolls around, I'd say Unionist votes will have moved towards Alliance and a modernised UUP. This will be the only way for their voices to be heard is such a huge decision, the DUP will blindly walk the last hardcore Unionists into a United Ireland without a voice.

This is interesting in that I've always wondered does it matter what political party people vote for when a border poll is called?

People can vote UUP, Alliance, DUP, SDLP, TUV, SF or whatever, but does that tell us which state they want to belong to?

Currently X amount of SDLP & SF voters would vote for NI to remain within the UK, this is always reflected in such polls, and I presume it would happen for real in the event of a United Ireland poll.

We also know that close on 100% of DUP & UUP voters would vote for NI to remain in the Union, so it's very hard, is it not to calculate what way a vote might go (in the present day). Will the middle ground catholic/nationalist vote all shift out of the UK camp along party lines?

[Deleted User]

Hamsterchops wrote: »

This is interesting in that I've always wondered does it matter what political party people vote for when a border poll is called?

People can vote UUP, Alliance, DUP, SDLP, TUV, SF or whatever, but does that tell us which state they want to belong to?

Currently X amount of SDLP & SF voters would vote for NI to remain within the UK, this is always reflected in such polls, and I presume it would happen for real in the event of a United Ireland poll.

We also know that close on 100% of DUP & UUP voters would vote for NI to remain in the Union, so it's very hard, is it not to calculate what way a vote might go (in the present day). Will the middle ground catholic/nationalist vote all shift out of the UK camp along party lines?

Who is in power when a Border Poll is called is massively important. These will be the people sitting at the table leading negotiations. Many of my friends who are from a Unionist background voted remain in Brexit as it negatively effects their family business, whether that be farming or small businesses in the border region.

They often voted DUP, not because they agreed with their policies or hard-line conservatism but more out of necessity. For a lot of people the DUP were the only Unionist party to get elected, therefore was their only real option. I'd argue similar with Sinn Fein, and we end up with a polarised Executive.

However, as things become more nuanced and the hard-line approach of the DUP in particular has no positive outcome my friends are now looking towards Alliance mostly. They aren't a hard U Unionist party but they believe that they would be much better at getting the Unionist viewpoint across in the event of a border poll.

A lot of Unionists, especially the younger generation are starting to see that a border poll is inevitable and that has been expedited by Brexit and in some ways EU membership may well be more important to them than the Union. They've now found themselves in a conundrum and I think unionism has some tough questions to ask and answer for itself.

Is the union a relationship they wish to continue to maintain, given that time and again they are at odds and lied to by successive British governments. Unionists are nothing more than a few extra votes in Parliament as far as the Tories are concerned.

The sooner the DUP get dropped by their voters the better. A shift towards a more moderate and open party would pay dividends for Unionists and could actually move nationalists away from Sinn Fein and closer to the middle ground.

This is all hypothetical though, and Brexit has taught us that the electorate can be fickle and easy bought with populist ideas and stoking tensions.

NeuralNetwork

O'Neill wrote: »

I know it's been picked up by a few UK media sources but overall I'm baffled but not surprised how quiet this story has been talked about in the UK media or by the UK Governenment for that matter.

Having lived in England, all I would say is that the vast majority of English people who I encountered have very little understanding of anything about Northern Ireland and how it's relevant to them.

It becomes a vital part of the UK when anyone suggests otherwise, but when its kicking off and there's trouble like this suddenly it's "Ireland" and "over there... nothing to do with us!"

You can see it in the way it's discussed too in the media. You never really hear anyone describe UK border, or the conflict in the UK or Irish independence as a UK civil war or anything like that. It's always 'the Irish Question' or similar othering type language when it's not fitting the nice cozy rhetoric of British notions of stability.

I mean has anyone ever heard of that time when the UK had millions of its citizens emigrate to the US and elsewhere due to mass poverty and starvation in one of the wealthiest countries on the planet? Nope! That's an Irish problem apparently, even though at the time they ran the place and everyone here was a British subject.

The reality that the Northern Ireland conflict, and the vast majority of its atrocities and violence happened entirely within the UK and in territory that was entirely controlled by Westminster is something that just does not sit comfortably with most of them as it's always been presented as Ireland and nothing to do with them.

They take no ownership, whatsoever, of Irish history, other than when it suits them. Anything remotely negative and it's suddenly a completely different entity, concept and place that they've only vaguely heard of. Unfortunate history, terrible times... that damn Irish government of the 1840s... which didn't exist.

Etc etc.

When it came to Brexit, the Tories were very happy to embrace the DUP for the numbers during the May government, and suddenly it was the most British place on earth. Once they had a majority... DUP? Who?! Nothing to do with us...

Brussels Sprout

When I look at Unionism as represented by the DUP their beliefs seems to be stuck somewhere in the distant past. They appear to believe that:

The politicians and people in the Republic are actively plotting against them
That the Republic is the poor relation to The North
That the Catholic Church still holds power and influence in the Republic
That as long as they are loyal to the Union, the Tories will have their back
That being a member of the Unionist community in The North carries with it an inherent superiority and privilege

whereas in reality:

The majority of people in the Republic rarely even think about the North
The North is an economic basket case dependent on welfare from London whereas The Republic has grown so much economically that it is now a net contributer to the EU
The Church's power has been dissipating for decades. It's mostly ignored now as evidenced by the referenda on Marriage, Abortion and Divorce in the last 6 years
Loyalty is a one-way street when it comes to the Tories and the Unionists.
The North has gradually become a more equal society over the past 50 years. The days of Unionist hegemony in the North are over. Members of the Nationalist community are going to University in higher numbers and are able to advance in life in ways that were impossible for their ancestors.

NeuralNetwork

One of the most worrying bits is that most of those points could equally be applied to the Brexiteer attitudes to the EU.

The politicians and people in the Republic are actively plotting against them (Everything's a plot against them, including realities of logistics and trade outside the bloc and discovery technical problems with a vaccine as part of an impartial regulatory process) ✓
That the Republic is the poor relation to The North - (the Euro's apparently been collapsing since its launch and the EU desperately needs London etc etc) ✓
That the Catholic Church still holds power and influence in the Republic (The EU is probably run by the French as some kind of plot. If it's not the French, it's run by the Germans, who are of course portrayed as WWII stereotypes) ✓
That as long as they are loyal to the Union, the Tories will have their back (Empire 2.0) ✓
That being a member of the Unionist community in The North carries with it an inherent superiority and privilege. (Empire 2.0) ✓

It's like they've brought the worst and most toxic issues from Northern Ireland politics into the mainstream of UK politics, but I suppose what you're looking at in both places is simply extreme British nationalism at play.

This simply was not the case if you went back to the pre Brexit days. The UK had been run by a series of very pragmatic, forward looking governments (of both sides) and there had been a lot of focus on facts based policy making. That's all been thrown under a large red bus since Brexit.

igCorcaigh

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

When I look at Unionism as represented by the DUP their beliefs seems to be stuck somewhere in the distant past. They appear to believe that:
The politicians and people in the Republic are actively plotting against them

That the Republic is the poor relation to The North

That the Catholic Church still holds power and influence in the Republic

That as long as they are loyal to the Union, the Tories will have their back

That being a member of the Unionist community in The North carries with it an inherent superiority and privilege

whereas in reality:
The majority of people in the Republic rarely even think about the North

The North is an economic basket case dependent on welfare from London whereas The Republic has grown so much economically that it is now a net contributer to the EU

The Church's power has been dissipating for decades. It's mostly ignored now as evidenced by the referenda on Marriage, Abortion and Divorce in the last 6 years

Loyalty is a one-way street when it comes to the Tories and the Unionists.

The North has gradually become a more equal society over the past 50 years. The days of Unionist hegemony in the North are over. Members of the Nationalist community are going to University in higher numbers and are able to advance in life in ways that were impossible for their ancestors.

Good points.

But, as you say, that is Unionism as represented by the DUP, a party of dinosaurs.

There does exist a progressive, forward looking element within Unionism that I hope will find a way of political expression.
Some of the small working class Loyalist parties had some progressive ideas, but obviously tainted by their military links.
Thinking of David Irvine and others.

(There is also a lack of communication between cross-border progressive groupings).

Here is an example of this, by the Shankill Think Tank, in 1995:

https://www.leftarchive.ie/document/4155/

I think it may have been written by the PUP?

NeuralNetwork

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Good points.

But, as you say, that is Unionism as represented by the DUP, a party of dinosaurs.

There does exist a progressive, forward looking element within Unionism that I hope will find a way of political expression.
Some of the small working class Loyalist parties had some progressive ideas, but obviously tainted by their military links.
Thinking of David Irvine.

Hopefully it manages to actually exert itself during the next assembly elections. If opinion polling is accurate, it's looking very possible that a combination of the Alliance Party and UUP could emerge as a far more pragmatic face of a unionist and less aligned side of Northern Irish politics that might actually come up with some workable solutions.

The DUP seem to be nothing but a party of reactionary politics and extreme religious views, that I can't really see are all that reflective of anything other than a shrinking minority in the real world. The majority of the population of Northern Ireland on both sides of the historical divides sees a shared future and a are very pragmatic about how that might be shaped.

Brussels Sprout

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Good points.

But, as you say, that is Unionism as represented by the DUP, a party of dinosaurs.

There does exist a progressive, forward looking element within Unionism that I hope will find a way of political expression.
Some of the small working class Loyalist parties had some progressive ideas, but obviously tainted by their military links.
Thinking of David Irvine.

There is also a lack of communication between cross-border progressive groupings.

I always think that it must be immensely frustrating (and depressing) to be a voter in the North - especially in the first past the post elections (General Elections). Like what if you just care about normal stuff like taxes, healthcare, transportation, the environment, education etc etc.

How many parties are there that are openly agnostic when it comes to Nationalism/Unionism? I can only think of the Alliance and PBP and they're both progressive. What if you're naturally a conservative voter but you don't want to vote for the DUP or TUV?

igCorcaigh

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I always think that it must be immensely frustrating (and depressing) to be a voter in the North - especially in the first past the post elections (General Elections). Like what if you just care about normal stuff like taxes, healthcare, transportation, the environment, education etc etc.

How many parties are there that are openly agnostic when it comes to Nationalism/Unionism? I can only think of the Alliance and PBP and they're both progressive. What if you're naturally a conservative voter but you don't want to vote for the DUP or TUV?

Do they have a PR system for assembly elections?

The FPTP mechanism is certainly not suited to NI.

Brussels Sprout

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Do they have a PR system for assembly elections?

The FPTP mechanism is certainly not suited to NI.

Yes they use PR-STV (same as us) for Assembly elections. That's why there are so many smaller parties with representation.

They also used it for their European elections.

Zebra3

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

When I look at Unionism as represented by the DUP their beliefs seems to be stuck somewhere in the distant past. They appear to believe that:
The politicians and people in the Republic are actively plotting against them

That the Republic is the poor relation to The North

That the Catholic Church still holds power and influence in the Republic

That as long as they are loyal to the Union, the Tories will have their back

That being a member of the Unionist community in The North carries with it an inherent superiority and privilege

whereas in reality:
The majority of people in the Republic rarely even think about the North

The North is an economic basket case dependent on welfare from London whereas The Republic has grown so much economically that it is now a net contributer to the EU

The Church's power has been dissipating for decades. It's mostly ignored now as evidenced by the referenda on Marriage, Abortion and Divorce in the last 6 years

Loyalty is a one-way street when it comes to the Tories and the Unionists.

The North has gradually become a more equal society over the past 50 years. The days of Unionist hegemony in the North are over. Members of the Nationalist community are going to University in higher numbers and are able to advance in life in ways that were impossible for their ancestors.

Add in the hypocrisy of the DUP in demanding to be treated the same as Britain and then whinging endlessly about abortion services being offered in NI.

Then the religious extremism of Free Presbyterianism. Scary.

Not even members of the church (or branch of it) that their beloved unelected head of state is head of.

NeuralNetwork

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Do they have a PR system for assembly elections?

The FPTP mechanism is certainly not suited to NI.

They only use FPTP for Westminster elections in Northern Ireland. Everything else uses PR-STV. The Assembly Elections work more or less the same as they would in an Irish General Election, however there's major difference when it comes to government formation due to the power-sharing system, which requires representation of both communities. There's a lot of complexities to how that operates, but at the basic level it just ensures both communities must be part of the executive. The upside of it is that it creates power sharing and avoids a problem of one-side-takes all, and basically forces them to cooperate, but on the other side of it, it you could argue that it's baked in sectarianism. However, it's deemed necessary due to the ethnic / cultural divide and history of sectarianism. It is sort of a catch 22 as while it's there to prevent conflict, it is also potentially limiting the growth of non-aligned parties as the society depolarises.

Despite the titles, the First and Deputy First Ministers have equal power. They really should have used the term First Co-Ministers. It's one of the reasons that I think the UK media needs to be a lot more careful about treating Arleen Foster as being the Head of Government in Northern Ireland. In reality, she does not have the same role as a PM due to power sharing structures. It's not a relationship like the Taoiseach and Tainiste or the PM and Deputy PM.

The choice of language and titles is problematic for anyone looking at it as you'd assume that it's a coalition between two parties to make up the numbers and that the two leaders are in a hierarchy.

PhilOssophy

And people want these people to become our problem through a United Ireland, eh no thanks leave them where they are!

NeuralNetwork

I think until you see a return to pragmatic politics in the UK, you're going to have a major issue with Northern Ireland. It's unbelievable irresponsible to play politics with a highly fragile region with such fraught and complex political problems.

I was in university in the early 2000s and we'd an opportunity to meet with a lot of the political parties and communities in Northern Ireland and there were immense amounts of positivity, reaching across old divides and willingness to try and make something better.

It's desperately sad to see all that goodwill and effort being thrown away by what amounts to a load of tabloid jingoism and nastiness coming from a relatively small group of people with very extreme points of view.

It's long been accepted that Northern Ireland's issues cannot be resolved by a winner-takes-all solution. It exists between two realities and the whole point of the last 30 years has been to deescalate conflict, make tensions irrelevant and interconnect people and that's what the EU provided a framework to allow to happen. It's not unique in Europe either, the EU and its predecessor organisations have played a huge role in eliminating tensions around formerly disputed regions. They may not all have been as heated as Northern Ireland, but there are plenty of examples of places that are caught between identities and places that have enclaves within other states. You see plenty of it around the Benelux countries, and along the French-German border for example.

Personally, I think the United Ireland objective needs to be parked. Whether you see it from a nationalist point of view or a unionist one, it's just too hot a topic to push out. It's far too soon for Northern Ireland to even be able to begin to have a grown up discussion about that. It's only a couple of decades post conflict and I think that needs to be remembered. It isn't a normal political environment.

It's up to the population of Northern Ireland to figure out what their identity is and how it can somehow fit all of them, even if it's not always perfectly comfortable.

What I would like to see is perhaps a referendum in Northern Ireland to affirm its special status within the EU system and to put all this crazy period of chaos behind us, without loading the debate with either unionist or nationalist points of view.

As I see it, the UK Government has already absolutely reneged on its role as a party to and a protector of the Good Friday Agreement and all that came from that by taking a position that has been staunchly unionist. It's something that they should simply never have done. It's irresponsible, inflammatory and they damn well know that too.

I would rate the current UK government much as I would rate Donald Trump's administration. That's the level they've stooped to and no amount of waffle, posh accents or flag waving can get around that.

steddyeddy

I've met plenty of ordinary unionists they're nothing like these lot. It's amazing that the moderate unionists aren't represented enough on shows like the Nolan show.

[Deleted User]

steddyeddy wrote: »

I've met plenty of ordinary unionists they're nothing like these lot. It's amazing that the moderate unionists aren't represented enough on shows like the Nolan show.

Most of them are at work and don't have time to call into an outrage radio show.

NeuralNetwork

Well, when you're looking at Northern Ireland political debate programmes, they really need to be structured in much the same way as an assembly might be. They've a political system that is built to find consensus and compromise, not one that's designed to pit one against the other.

That's also where all perspective was lost in English media during the Brexit campaign. Any subtly of debate was replaced with leave vs remain.

So instead of a nuanced debate, you had a polarised culture war play out.

batman75

Any attempt to link loyalist violence to the Bobby Storey funeral is utter nonsense. When the new Rangers won their first ever SPL title they was hundreds of them out on the Shankill with their beloved flags and Union Jacks. The reality as I see it is that the loyalists know that their links to the UK are weakening by the year. Once the Queen dies they won't feel the same attachment to the monarchy. I expect Scottish independence to carry next time they run a referendum. This too will I believe be a first step to the break up of the United Kingdom. They are facing changing demographics in the North. I think deep down they are scared that the reality of a united Ireland in our lifetime is now a real prospect.

Padre_Pio

batman75 wrote: »

Any attempt to link loyalist violence to the Bobby Storey funeral is utter nonsense. When the new Rangers won their first ever SPL title they was hundreds of them out on the Shankill with their beloved flags and Union Jacks. The reality as I see it is that the loyalists know that their links to the UK are weakening by the year. Once the Queen dies they won't feel the same attachment to the monarchy. I expect Scottish independence to carry next time they run a referendum. This too will I believe be a first step to the break up of the United Kingdom. They are facing changing demographics in the North. I think deep down they are scared that the reality of a united Ireland in our lifetime is now a real prospect.

I wonder how right you might be.
The Queen is the universally loved face of the monarchy. Will anyone really care when the personality vacuum Charles takes over?

"Stay in the UK for King Charles"

No thanks.

O'Neill

batman75 wrote: »

Any attempt to link loyalist violence to the Bobby Storey funeral is utter nonsense. When the new Rangers won their first ever SPL title they was hundreds of them out on the Shankill with their beloved flags and Union Jacks. The reality as I see it is that the loyalists know that their links to the UK are weakening by the year. Once the Queen dies they won't feel the same attachment to the monarchy. I expect Scottish independence to carry next time they run a referendum. This too will I believe be a first step to the break up of the United Kingdom. They are facing changing demographics in the North. I think deep down they are scared that the reality of a united Ireland in our lifetime is now a real prospect.

It might be a case of one rule for politicans and the other for the general public but that applies to all politicans for christ sake. I mean, I wasn't able to attend my Aunts funeral last year like a lot of people but is it because I'm not from a Loyalist area I don't have a genuine greviences from that or something? Foster has a nerve using words like 'elite'

BluePlanet

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Personally, I think the United Ireland objective needs to be parked. Whether you see it from a nationalist point of view or a unionist one, it's just too hot a topic to push out. It's far too soon for Northern Ireland to even be able to begin to have a grown up discussion about that.

Sure, all the Unionists have to do is kick up, make a big fuss, have a riot and you want throw in the towel.

Fact is, this is an Irish problem, just ask the Brits.

Tyrone212

batman75 wrote: »

Any attempt to link loyalist violence to the Bobby Storey funeral is utter nonsense. When the new Rangers won their first ever SPL title they was hundreds of them out on the Shankill with their beloved flags and Union Jacks. The reality as I see it is that the loyalists know that their links to the UK are weakening by the year. Once the Queen dies they won't feel the same attachment to the monarchy. I expect Scottish independence to carry next time they run a referendum. This too will I believe be a first step to the break up of the United Kingdom. They are facing changing demographics in the North. I think deep down they are scared that the reality of a united Ireland in our lifetime is now a real prospect.

Loyalist violence began 4 5 nights before the findings of storey enquiry were released.

FrancieBrady

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Loyalist violence began 4 5 nights before the findings of storey enquiry were released.

Exactly.

This will go on all summer. The state has failed. Centenary year to this backdrop, pathetic.

Tyrone212

Bus petrol bombed and hijacked in Belfast. Unconfirmed reports bus driver was punched as well. Video attached.

https://mobile.twitter.com/vincekearney/status/1379880873550618627

hometruths

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Bus petrol bombed and hijacked in Belfast. Unconfirmed reports bus driver was punched as well. Video attached.

https://mobile.twitter.com/vincekearney/status/1379880873550618627

Saw this in the Irish Times. I watch Sky News (a British channel) a lot. Have seen no mention of rioting in Belfast, police being petrol bombed etc.

When I saw a bus had been hijacked and burnt out, I checked the Sky news website. No mention of it. But you can read a story about an Albino wallaby baby will have guests bouncing in excitement as zoo opens after lockdown

Something tells me that a) the Brits don't give a damn if angry loyalists burn up Northern Ireland and b) that doesn't matter anyway, because we down South are the intended audience

briany

schmittel wrote: »

Something tells me that a) the Brits don't give a damn if angry loyalists burn up Northern Ireland and b) that doesn't matter anyway, because we down South are the intended audience

I know I'm asking way too much, here, but it would be fairer if at least a bit of that anger and vitriol were directed toward Johnson and the Tories who agreed to the deal while simultaneously giving false assurances that there would be no sea border.