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Belfast Disturbances

Lougho

So approaching a disjointed marching season in North of Ireland for a second year running, Sandyrow and The waterside in Derry have now erupted with violent clashes.

Sandyrow seen officers injured and it is being blamed on the Irish sea border, within the community it seems the Royal bar leadership were arching up the tensions the past few weeks with banners at the front of the bar.

Is the LCC committed to non violent means or is it more Smoke and mirrors from the UDA and UVF. Donegal pass under the UVF and Sandyrow both came to a standstill last night.

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Brussels Sprout

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Good points.

But, as you say, that is Unionism as represented by the DUP, a party of dinosaurs.

There does exist a progressive, forward looking element within Unionism that I hope will find a way of political expression.
Some of the small working class Loyalist parties had some progressive ideas, but obviously tainted by their military links.
Thinking of David Irvine.

There is also a lack of communication between cross-border progressive groupings.

I always think that it must be immensely frustrating (and depressing) to be a voter in the North - especially in the first past the post elections (General Elections). Like what if you just care about normal stuff like taxes, healthcare, transportation, the environment, education etc etc.

How many parties are there that are openly agnostic when it comes to Nationalism/Unionism? I can only think of the Alliance and PBP and they're both progressive. What if you're naturally a conservative voter but you don't want to vote for the DUP or TUV?

NeuralNetwork

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Good points.

But, as you say, that is Unionism as represented by the DUP, a party of dinosaurs.

There does exist a progressive, forward looking element within Unionism that I hope will find a way of political expression.
Some of the small working class Loyalist parties had some progressive ideas, but obviously tainted by their military links.
Thinking of David Irvine.

Hopefully it manages to actually exert itself during the next assembly elections. If opinion polling is accurate, it's looking very possible that a combination of the Alliance Party and UUP could emerge as a far more pragmatic face of a unionist and less aligned side of Northern Irish politics that might actually come up with some workable solutions.

The DUP seem to be nothing but a party of reactionary politics and extreme religious views, that I can't really see are all that reflective of anything other than a shrinking minority in the real world. The majority of the population of Northern Ireland on both sides of the historical divides sees a shared future and a are very pragmatic about how that might be shaped.

igCorcaigh

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

When I look at Unionism as represented by the DUP their beliefs seems to be stuck somewhere in the distant past. They appear to believe that:
The politicians and people in the Republic are actively plotting against them

That the Republic is the poor relation to The North

That the Catholic Church still holds power and influence in the Republic

That as long as they are loyal to the Union, the Tories will have their back

That being a member of the Unionist community in The North carries with it an inherent superiority and privilege

whereas in reality:
The majority of people in the Republic rarely even think about the North

The North is an economic basket case dependent on welfare from London whereas The Republic has grown so much economically that it is now a net contributer to the EU

The Church's power has been dissipating for decades. It's mostly ignored now as evidenced by the referenda on Marriage, Abortion and Divorce in the last 6 years

Loyalty is a one-way street when it comes to the Tories and the Unionists.

The North has gradually become a more equal society over the past 50 years. The days of Unionist hegemony in the North are over. Members of the Nationalist community are going to University in higher numbers and are able to advance in life in ways that were impossible for their ancestors.

Good points.

But, as you say, that is Unionism as represented by the DUP, a party of dinosaurs.

There does exist a progressive, forward looking element within Unionism that I hope will find a way of political expression.
Some of the small working class Loyalist parties had some progressive ideas, but obviously tainted by their military links.
Thinking of David Irvine and others.

(There is also a lack of communication between cross-border progressive groupings).

Here is an example of this, by the Shankill Think Tank, in 1995:

https://www.leftarchive.ie/document/4155/

I think it may have been written by the PUP?

NeuralNetwork

One of the most worrying bits is that most of those points could equally be applied to the Brexiteer attitudes to the EU.

The politicians and people in the Republic are actively plotting against them (Everything's a plot against them, including realities of logistics and trade outside the bloc and discovery technical problems with a vaccine as part of an impartial regulatory process) ✓
That the Republic is the poor relation to The North - (the Euro's apparently been collapsing since its launch and the EU desperately needs London etc etc) ✓
That the Catholic Church still holds power and influence in the Republic (The EU is probably run by the French as some kind of plot. If it's not the French, it's run by the Germans, who are of course portrayed as WWII stereotypes) ✓
That as long as they are loyal to the Union, the Tories will have their back (Empire 2.0) ✓
That being a member of the Unionist community in The North carries with it an inherent superiority and privilege. (Empire 2.0) ✓

It's like they've brought the worst and most toxic issues from Northern Ireland politics into the mainstream of UK politics, but I suppose what you're looking at in both places is simply extreme British nationalism at play.

This simply was not the case if you went back to the pre Brexit days. The UK had been run by a series of very pragmatic, forward looking governments (of both sides) and there had been a lot of focus on facts based policy making. That's all been thrown under a large red bus since Brexit.

Brussels Sprout

When I look at Unionism as represented by the DUP their beliefs seems to be stuck somewhere in the distant past. They appear to believe that:

The politicians and people in the Republic are actively plotting against them
That the Republic is the poor relation to The North
That the Catholic Church still holds power and influence in the Republic
That as long as they are loyal to the Union, the Tories will have their back
That being a member of the Unionist community in The North carries with it an inherent superiority and privilege

whereas in reality:

The majority of people in the Republic rarely even think about the North
The North is an economic basket case dependent on welfare from London whereas The Republic has grown so much economically that it is now a net contributer to the EU
The Church's power has been dissipating for decades. It's mostly ignored now as evidenced by the referenda on Marriage, Abortion and Divorce in the last 6 years
Loyalty is a one-way street when it comes to the Tories and the Unionists.
The North has gradually become a more equal society over the past 50 years. The days of Unionist hegemony in the North are over. Members of the Nationalist community are going to University in higher numbers and are able to advance in life in ways that were impossible for their ancestors.

NeuralNetwork

O'Neill wrote: »

I know it's been picked up by a few UK media sources but overall I'm baffled but not surprised how quiet this story has been talked about in the UK media or by the UK Governenment for that matter.

Having lived in England, all I would say is that the vast majority of English people who I encountered have very little understanding of anything about Northern Ireland and how it's relevant to them.

It becomes a vital part of the UK when anyone suggests otherwise, but when its kicking off and there's trouble like this suddenly it's "Ireland" and "over there... nothing to do with us!"

You can see it in the way it's discussed too in the media. You never really hear anyone describe UK border, or the conflict in the UK or Irish independence as a UK civil war or anything like that. It's always 'the Irish Question' or similar othering type language when it's not fitting the nice cozy rhetoric of British notions of stability.

I mean has anyone ever heard of that time when the UK had millions of its citizens emigrate to the US and elsewhere due to mass poverty and starvation in one of the wealthiest countries on the planet? Nope! That's an Irish problem apparently, even though at the time they ran the place and everyone here was a British subject.

The reality that the Northern Ireland conflict, and the vast majority of its atrocities and violence happened entirely within the UK and in territory that was entirely controlled by Westminster is something that just does not sit comfortably with most of them as it's always been presented as Ireland and nothing to do with them.

They take no ownership, whatsoever, of Irish history, other than when it suits them. Anything remotely negative and it's suddenly a completely different entity, concept and place that they've only vaguely heard of. Unfortunate history, terrible times... that damn Irish government of the 1840s... which didn't exist.

Etc etc.

When it came to Brexit, the Tories were very happy to embrace the DUP for the numbers during the May government, and suddenly it was the most British place on earth. Once they had a majority... DUP? Who?! Nothing to do with us...

[Deleted User]

Hamsterchops wrote: »

This is interesting in that I've always wondered does it matter what political party people vote for when a border poll is called?

People can vote UUP, Alliance, DUP, SDLP, TUV, SF or whatever, but does that tell us which state they want to belong to?

Currently X amount of SDLP & SF voters would vote for NI to remain within the UK, this is always reflected in such polls, and I presume it would happen for real in the event of a United Ireland poll.

We also know that close on 100% of DUP & UUP voters would vote for NI to remain in the Union, so it's very hard, is it not to calculate what way a vote might go (in the present day). Will the middle ground catholic/nationalist vote all shift out of the UK camp along party lines?

Who is in power when a Border Poll is called is massively important. These will be the people sitting at the table leading negotiations. Many of my friends who are from a Unionist background voted remain in Brexit as it negatively effects their family business, whether that be farming or small businesses in the border region.

They often voted DUP, not because they agreed with their policies or hard-line conservatism but more out of necessity. For a lot of people the DUP were the only Unionist party to get elected, therefore was their only real option. I'd argue similar with Sinn Fein, and we end up with a polarised Executive.

However, as things become more nuanced and the hard-line approach of the DUP in particular has no positive outcome my friends are now looking towards Alliance mostly. They aren't a hard U Unionist party but they believe that they would be much better at getting the Unionist viewpoint across in the event of a border poll.

A lot of Unionists, especially the younger generation are starting to see that a border poll is inevitable and that has been expedited by Brexit and in some ways EU membership may well be more important to them than the Union. They've now found themselves in a conundrum and I think unionism has some tough questions to ask and answer for itself.

Is the union a relationship they wish to continue to maintain, given that time and again they are at odds and lied to by successive British governments. Unionists are nothing more than a few extra votes in Parliament as far as the Tories are concerned.

The sooner the DUP get dropped by their voters the better. A shift towards a more moderate and open party would pay dividends for Unionists and could actually move nationalists away from Sinn Fein and closer to the middle ground.

This is all hypothetical though, and Brexit has taught us that the electorate can be fickle and easy bought with populist ideas and stoking tensions.

Hamsterchops

circadian wrote: »

By the time a border poll rolls around, I'd say Unionist votes will have moved towards Alliance and a modernised UUP. This will be the only way for their voices to be heard is such a huge decision, the DUP will blindly walk the last hardcore Unionists into a United Ireland without a voice.

This is interesting in that I've always wondered does it matter what political party people vote for when a border poll is called?

People can vote UUP, Alliance, DUP, SDLP, TUV, SF or whatever, but does that tell us which state they want to belong to?

Currently X amount of SDLP & SF voters would vote for NI to remain within the UK, this is always reflected in such polls, and I presume it would happen for real in the event of a United Ireland poll.

We also know that close on 100% of DUP & UUP voters would vote for NI to remain in the Union, so it's very hard, is it not to calculate what way a vote might go (in the present day). Will the middle ground catholic/nationalist vote all shift out of the UK camp along party lines?

O'Neill

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They.dont.care

Even at the height of the troubles they never cared.

I mean I haven't even heard anything from Brandon Lewis who's supposed to be our Sectary of State :eek: I'm aware he met with Loyalist leaders a few weeks ago or so.

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

Plenty of Spanish people have never been to Portugal, and vice versa. It isn't that unusual.

I'll leave aside the ludicrousness of comparing the relationship between Spain and Portugal to Northern Ireland and the republic but I'll remind you that Stephen Nolan continuously claims to be unbiased. Irish people in Northern Ireland unsurprisingly feel more Irish than British therefore feel a strong connection to the republic of Ireland.

Stephen Nolan didn't bother to even pop south of the border to visit a country that's important to the listeners he claims to be unbiased against.

Kermit.de.frog

O'Neill wrote: »

I know it's been picked up by a few UK media sources but overall I'm baffled but not surprised how quiet this story has been talked about in the UK media or by the UK Governenment for that matter.

They.dont.care

Even at the height of the troubles they never cared.

[Deleted User]

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Listening to Arlene repeat calls for PSNI Chief Constable Simon Byrne to step down I wondered is he a Catholic and this possibly was another reason for her demand?

Ah, the DUP have been gunning for him since he got the job, I don't know if his background has anything to do with it and more the possibility that he won't be as likely to have their corner in certain situations.

As usual, they rile up loyalists while at the same time, weakly discourage them from riots.

"I say to young people who are angry, do not get yourself a criminal record. It will blight your life for the rest of your life, you won't be able to go on holiday, so please, please desist from this violence."

You won't be able to go on holiday? C'mon now, that's ****ing weak. A better approach would be to point out that they are destroying their own communities, that their behaviour has a direct effect on the quality of life of those around them and themselves.

Nope. You get caught rioting, you might not be able to head off to Benidorm (which has already been made more difficult by Brexit. I hope the irony isn't lost on them).

I caught a snippet of Gregory Campbell on the Claire Byrne show. He was his usual self, disrespectful and laughing at everyone else. His claims of a border poll never happening are full of fear.

If it's never going to happen, then why not discuss it in good faith? Who knows, maybe some Nationalists may see Unionism from a different perspective. The DUP are incapable of genuine bridge building, there is absolutely no desire to share power or reach compromises with anyone around them. Christ, they even done it to the Tories.

As with most things though, it's a minority causing issues and the general population don't agree with disturbances like this. People in the North are the same as people anywhere else, roof over heads, food on the table, healthcare, education, jobs etc. That's what's really important.

By the time a border poll rolls around, I'd say Unionist votes will have moved towards Alliance and a modernised UUP. This will be the only way for their voices to be heard is such a huge decision, the DUP will blindly walk the last hardcore Unionists into a United Ireland without a voice.

O'Neill

I know it's been picked up by a few UK media sources but overall I'm baffled but not surprised how quiet this story has been talked about in the UK media or by the UK Governenment for that matter.

bilbot79

Any disturbances tonight?

RandomViewer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Stats are coming out on twitter, seems the caller was on the money. Heavily weighted in favour of Unionism. Allister has been on a quarter of the shows, when his party has 1 seat and 2.5% of the vote.
Questions for Nolan and the BBC's impartiality.

Always thought Nolan and Jim Allister were close

Five Eighth

blanch152 wrote: »

Plenty of Spanish people have never been to Portugal, and vice versa. It isn't that unusual.

Do you not agree that it might be useful for a journalist to familiarise himself with the neighbouring jurisdiction that plays a massive part in the conversations and debates of his audience?

Zebra3

blanch152 wrote: »

Plenty of Spanish people have never been to Portugal, and vice versa. It isn't that unusual.

Yes, I’m shocked at the number of people from Valencia who have never been to Portugal what with it being right next door and all that.

Seth Brundle

Listening to Arlene repeat calls for PSNI Chief Constable Simon Byrne to step down I wondered is he a Catholic and this possibly was another reason for her demand?

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm delighted he gets called out on this. He is a provocateur who has the most extreme figures on his program on a weekly basis. He's certainly not unbiased either.

Stats are coming out on twitter, seems the caller was on the money. Heavily weighted in favour of Unionism. Allister has been on a quarter of the shows, when his party has 1 seat and 2.5% of the vote.
Questions for Nolan and the BBC's impartiality.

blanch152

briany wrote: »

I remember some years ago that Stephen Nolan appeared alongside Hector O Heochagain in a programme called Hector Breaks for the Border where Hector went up north for a week or whatever, and Stephen came down south for a week. Hector was Hector as usual, being overly enthusiastic and a bit annoying because of it. Nolan was a bit surprising in that he mentioned having never been down south before, and did not initially seem that enthused about visiting. He lightened up as his visit went on and there were times where he seemed to be enjoying himself, but I was surprised that he, as a supposedly educated journalist, had never ventured south of the border, as it were. Given that the Republic constitutes the much larger proportion of the island of Ireland, it takes a bit of doing never to venture beyond the confines of that quadrant in the north east, down to any other part. He apparently never even had any interest before. He tries to portray himself as unbiased, but it often is all too obvious where his sympathies lie.

Plenty of Spanish people have never been to Portugal, and vice versa. It isn't that unusual.

steddyeddy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nolan and the BBC editing out the segment apparently. Ridiculous what this guy is let away with really.

https://twitter.com/Sal_feeko/status/1379457225803059205

I'm delighted he gets called out on this. He is a provocateur who has the most extreme figures on his program on a weekly basis. He's certainly not unbiased either.

O'Neill

briany wrote: »

I remember some years ago that Stephen Nolan appeared alongside Hector O Heochagain in a programme called Hector Breaks for the Border where Hector went up north for a week or whatever, and Stephen came down south for a week. Hector was Hector as usual, being overly enthusiastic and a bit annoying because of it. Nolan was a bit surprising in that he mentioned having never been down south before, and did not initially seem that enthused about visiting. He lightened up as his visit went on and there were times where he seemed to be enjoying himself, but I was surprised that he, as a supposedly educated journalist, had never ventured south of the border, as it were. Given that the Republic constitutes the much larger proportion of the island of Ireland, it takes a bit of doing never to venture beyond the confines of that quadrant in the north east, down to any other part. He apparently never even had any interest before. He tries to portray himself as unbiased, but it often is all too obvious where his sympathies lie.

Remember this nonsense? It was a surreal time and Nolan certainly did not help matters. It was like an episode of Jeremy Kyle.

briany

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nolan and the BBC editing out the segment apparently. Ridiculous what this guy is let away with really.

I remember some years ago that Stephen Nolan appeared alongside Hector O Heochagain in a programme called Hector Breaks for the Border where Hector went up north for a week or whatever, and Stephen came down south for a week. Hector was Hector as usual, being overly enthusiastic and a bit annoying because of it. Nolan was a bit surprising in that he mentioned having never been down south before, and did not initially seem that enthused about visiting. He lightened up as his visit went on and there were times where he seemed to be enjoying himself, but I was surprised that he, as a supposedly educated journalist, had never ventured south of the border, as it were. Given that the Republic constitutes the much larger proportion of the island of Ireland, it takes a bit of doing never to venture beyond the confines of that quadrant in the north east, down to any other part. He apparently never even had any interest before. He tries to portray himself as unbiased, but it often is all too obvious where his sympathies lie.

FrancieBrady

McMurphy wrote: »

Posted this in the wrong thread a minute or two ago.

Anyone hear Nolan threatening to sue "Tim" earlier on BBC?

Your man completely and utterly owned him, Nolan clearly rattled by that, he was completely caught off-guard.

https://twitter.com/skullywagg/status/1379359141752401922?s=19

Nolan and the BBC editing out the segment apparently. Ridiculous what this guy is let away with really.

https://twitter.com/Sal_feeko/status/1379457225803059205

FrancieBrady

Triangle wrote: »

Really, you honestly think that?

If that were the case, we wouldn't be singing ra songs in the pub post elections.

The North is still divided with historic bias. Just to a lesser degree, but it's still there on both sides.

Even the much vaunted 'Northern Irish' identity is divided. All it is, is a holding position. The majority are disillusioned Unionists withdrawing support for the 2 main Unionist parties because of disastrous leadership.

Triangle

blanch152 wrote: »

Ultimately, the "not Irish, not Catholic" mode will run out of steam, which is where the gap for the Northern Irish identity will appear.

Really, you honestly think that?

If that were the case, we wouldn't be singing ra songs in the pub post elections.

The North is still divided with historic bias. Just to a lesser degree, but it's still there on both sides.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The vast majority of decent people never have any truck with those who resort to violent means to achieve political ends.

It is the same in this instant. The rioting is wrong, and must stop.

However, the two sectarian parties must grow up and learn to live with one another.

Unionism and those supporting it have to stop throwing the toys out of the pram whenever they don't get their way.

They have to realise that the veto is gone and that they have to negotiate the future with equals.
That is the basis of the GFA.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

By the end of the summer you'll see how isolated they and those who cheer them on are.

The vast majority of Unionists want no truck with this.

The vast majority of decent people never have any truck with those who resort to violent means to achieve political ends.

It is the same in this instant. The rioting is wrong, and must stop.

However, the two sectarian parties must grow up and learn to live with one another.

McMurphy

Posted this in the wrong thread a minute or two ago.

Anyone hear Nolan threatening to sue "Tim" earlier on BBC?

Your man completely and utterly owned him, Nolan clearly rattled by that, he was completely caught off-guard.

https://twitter.com/skullywagg/status/1379359141752401922?s=19

blanch152

swampgas wrote: »

This is all too common through. For a long time a lot of Irish people defined themselves (in part) as "not British", and a lot of Brexiteers defined themselves as "not European", well maybe more specifically as "not German" and "not French". These beliefs don't change easily - we need new crutches for our sense of identity before we can discard any old ones.

The DUP have been in "not Irish, not Catholic" mode forever, it's what they are. They liked Brexit because the further the UK diverged from the EU the further it was diverging from Ireland, and if that endangered the GFA (which they hate as it forces them to cooperate with their sworn enemy) then all the better. They don't seem to have anything else they can use to define themselves. If we Irish didn't exist they would have to invent us to give them something with which to terrify their children.

No matter how badly the Tories mistreat and betray them, they will suck it up because the alternative is to admit that maybe their old enemy isn't so bad after all. And that's thinking the unthinkable.

Ultimately, the "not Irish, not Catholic" mode will run out of steam, which is where the gap for the Northern Irish identity will appear.