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Do you have to be ethnically Irish to be considered Irish?

SharpshooterTom

David Lammy yesterday went on LBC radio and was told he can never be English by caller because he's not ethnically English.
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1376522685073735683
The caller said she was English as she was racially Anglo-Saxon, but if you look at the comments below you can see a lot of people agree with her on this. They say he can be British, as that's seen as civic identity but a lot of English people get touchy about Englishness and see it as an historic ethnicity (as do some Welsh, Scots and Irish). I'm born and raised in England myself but because my parents are both Irish I was also told I can't be English.

The debate started because David Lammy didn't like on the census there was no "Black English" or "Asian English" option and that Black or Asian British was only listed.

Can someone born and raised here who has no Irish heritage be considered Irish?

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Rodin

begbysback wrote: »

I’ve no idea if you are then considered Irish or English, but I am very impressed by your independence at two years of age having left your parents in England.

That'll be the Irish side...

ExMachina1000

Rodin wrote: »

Im always very suspicious of anybody shouting from the rooftops about their new nationality wnen they get a passport after 5 years.
No real football fan even changes their club never mind their nationality.

The country is 95% empty over there. They rely on large scale immigration to constantly grow the economy. Apparently the after effects of covid lockdowns which put immigration to a halt is going to affect the Australian economy and society hugely in the long term.

But anyway , I'm not shouting about anything The passport is in the bottom of a drawer somewhere.

[Deleted User]

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

A piece of paper doesn't change the fact just because I lived there for a while

Tend to agree with this. I lived in another country for a decade. Now I never took out citizenship but was well embedded there.

Not for one second did I ever consider myself a native of that country. If I ever described myself as such, the locals would have looked at me as if I had ten heads.

And rightly so.

Rodin

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

The country is 95% empty over there. They rely on large scale immigration to constantly grow the economy. Apparently the after effects of covid lockdowns which put immigration to a halt is going to affect the Australian economy and society hugely in the long term.

But anyway , I'm not shouting about anything The passport is in the bottom of a drawer somewhere.

Im talking about people who come here eulogising being Irish after 5 years.

I agree with you that an Aussie passport doesn't make you Australian... then again what it means to to be Australian is a different debate altogether...

Rodin

Hamachi wrote: »

Tend to agree with this. I lived in another country for a decade. Now I never took out citizenship but was well embedded there.

Not for one second did I ever consider myself a native of that country. If I ever described myself as such, the locals would have looked at me as if I had ten heads.

And rightly so.

People think themselves Irish having spent half that time here.

[Deleted User]

Rodin wrote: »

People think themselves Irish having spent half that time here.

Like who?

I know several people here for 20 years who wouldn’t even vaguely consider themselves Irish.

ExMachina1000

Rodin wrote: »

Im talking about people who come here eulogising being Irish after 5 years.

I agree with you that an Aussie passport doesn't make you Australian... then again what it means to to be Australian is a different debate altogether...

Apologies I picked you up wrong.

joe40

Rodin wrote: »

Im talking about people who come here eulogising being Irish after 5 years.

I agree with you that an Aussie passport doesn't make you Australian... then again what it means to to be Australian is a different debate altogether...

This thread isn't about that. It was started because of the story about David Lanny an English MP (born in England) who was told he was not ethnically English.
I agree with you if I move to another country, say England, I would still be Irish. However kids born and reared there would be English.

SimonTemplar

Lammy was born and raised in London. Of course he is English. The caller to that show is just a bigot.

joe40

Hamachi wrote: »

Why? Because you say so? Who are you to make that determination?

For the record, I agree that poster is Irish. However, for you to dismiss concepts like heritage and ethnicity, reveals astounding levels of ignorance, particularly from someone who claims to be an educator.

On reflection saying heritage and ethnicity was nonsense was ott.
I'm proud of my Irish heritage.
I do think though the whole notion can be overstated though.
Someone born here, who identifies as Irish is as Irish as I am.

ExMachina1000

joe40 wrote: »

This thread isn't about that. It was started because of the story about David Lanny an English MP (born in England) who was told he was not ethnically English.
I agree with you if I move to another country, say England, I would still be Irish. However kids born and reared there would be English.

Well he isnt ethnically English. If I think what do ethnically English people look like my mind thinks historically. A white protestant.

Just like if I was asked about the ethnicity of someone from Saudi Arabia my mind pictures an Arab muslim.

Or an ethnically Chinese person my mind gives an image of someone with Asian features.

I dont see a white person as an ethnicity of Saudi Arabia or a black person as ethnicity Chinese

It doesn't really add up. Maybe in ten generations time but not now.
He is definitely English but not ethnically English

Seems to be only in the west that these changes are taking place

SharpshooterTom

joe40 wrote: »

There are plenty of English people who have Irish parents.
Plenty see themselves as English first.

I have cousins from Scotland whose parents were both Irish. They visit here often but would consider themselves scottish first and foremost.

There are plenty of Scottish people (certainly Scottish unionists/loyalists, Rangers fans and the like) who certainly wouldn't though. Go to any Rangers online forum and lot of them wont consider people of Irish catholic origin to be properly Scottish, that problem appears to be much worse than in England so I'm actually glad I wasn't born and raised there.

SharpshooterTom

Hamachi wrote: »

Tend to agree with this. I lived in another country for a decade. Now I never took out citizenship but was well embedded there.

Not for one second did I ever consider myself a native of that country. If I ever described myself as such, the locals would have looked at me as if I had ten heads.

And rightly so.

I actually disagree with this. I think because countries like America/Canada/Australia/New Zealand are countries with a strong immigrant culture and aren't tied by ethnicity like the way "old world" European/Asian countries are.

I know lots of naturalised Americans who identify as American even if they moved there as adults. And Americans are proud of that. Naturalization is celebrated there and I've always admired that about them. Ronald Reagan in a speech on immigration spoke of a letter he received from a recent naturalised immigrant on what it means to be an American:

"You can go to live in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany, or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German, a Turk or Japanese. But anyone, from any corner of the Earth, can come to live in America and become an American."

Rodin

joe40 wrote: »

On reflection saying heritage and ethnicity was nonsense was ott.
I'm proud of my Irish heritage.
I do think though the whole notion can be overstated though.
Someone born here, who identifies as Irish is as Irish as I am.

And others disagree...
I don't think people not from here identify with the history. People who are here for generations identify with the history... indeed their ancestors starved, rebelled, recovered then rebuilt in the country. Don't tell me that someone with no Irish heritage identifies with that...

Rodin

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

I actually disagree with this. I think because countries like America/Canada/Australia/New Zealand are countries with a strong immigrant culture and aren't tied by ethnicity like the way "old world" European/Asian countries are.

I know lots of naturalised Americans who identify as American even if they moved there as adults. And Americans are proud of that. Naturalization is celebrated there and I've always admired that about them. Ronald Reagan in a speech on immigration spoke of a letter he received from a recent naturalised immigrant on what it means to be an American:

"You can go to live in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany, or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German, a Turk or Japanese. But anyone, from any corner of the Earth, can come to live in America and become an American."

Because America has eff all history of any length.
Even Americans identify with being from elsewhere... African-American, Irish American, Italian American.....etc

DerekC16

You don't become Irish by obtaining citizenship, you become a citizen of Ireland. Nationality and citizenship are two different things.

Rodin

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Well he isnt ethnically English. If I think what do ethnically English people look like my mind thinks historically. A white protestant.

Just like if I was asked about the ethnicity of someone from Saudi Arabia my mind pictures an Arab muslim.

Or an ethnically Chinese person my mind gives an image of someone with Asian features.

I dont see a white person as an ethnicity of Saudi Arabia or a black person as ethnicity Chinese

It doesn't really add up. Maybe in ten generations time but not now.
He is definitely English but not ethnically English

Seems to be only in the west that these changes are taking place

Only in the west are we expected to adapt and assimilate.
The greatest misogynists, racists, and least progressive types are not in the west. Just try getting a hot dog in Riyadh during Ramadan because you're not of the local faith...

bfa1509

99nsr125 wrote: »

No

No Irish heritage not Irish

Would you consider someone Chinese just because they lived a while in China.

Holding a passport is not the same as being

I call myself Chinese... after 10 pints

85603

You may have no other gods before me.

To be Irish you must be willing to put Ireland before any and all other countries.

So, in a theoretical war with Brazil, or Poland or Nigeria those countries become your enemy.

T.V Eye

85603 wrote: »

You may have no other gods before me.

To be Irish you must be willing to put Ireland before any and all other countries.

So, in a theoretical war with Brazil, or Poland or Nigeria those countries become your enemy.

I was born in Ireland but I’m switching sides if we go to war with any of those nations.

jacksonsarm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T1D9-94xOU

[Deleted User]

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

I actually disagree with this. I think because countries like America/Canada/Australia/New Zealand are countries with a strong immigrant culture and aren't tied by ethnicity like the way "old world" European/Asian countries are.

I agree with you on this. It’s possible to become ‘X’ in the ‘new world societies founded on immigration.

The scenario I was describing was in Europe. I don’t believe there is a single society in Europe that would you accept you as a native after a mere decade. This holds true for the most inclusive and multicultural societies on the continent.

That’s what makes the ignorance of denying an Irish heritage and ethnicity so galling. It’s usually done by Irish people who have never spent substantial time outside the country and have no idea how seriously other nations treat these concepts.

...Ghost...

odyssey06 wrote: »

Who you cheer for in sports is also a good indication... ultimate test is if they are playing your ancestral homeland.

I usually hear people cheering for Man United or Liverpool in the pub. Not many Irish in the local.

snotboogie

Hamachi wrote: »

I agree with you on this. It’s possible to become ‘X’ in the ‘new world societies founded on immigration.

The scenario I was describing was in Europe. I don’t believe there is a single society in Europe that would you accept you as a native after a mere decade. This holds true for the most inclusive and multicultural societies on the continent.

That’s what makes the ignorance of denying an Irish heritage and ethnicity so galling. It’s usually done by Irish people who have never spent substantial time outside the country and have no idea how seriously other nations treat these concepts.

You are conflating moving to a country as an adult with someone of a different ethnicity being born and raised in the country, which is the topic of the OP. Are you saying that Zlatan isn't considered Swedish in Sweden? Or that the French don't consider Zidane one of their own?

Rodin

snotboogie wrote: »

You are conflating moving to a country as an adult with someone of a different ethnicity being born and raised in the country, which is the topic of the OP. Are you saying that Zlatan isn't considered Swedish in Sweden? Or that the French don't consider Zidane one of their own?

Id say that if instead of a world class footballer, Zidane was a terrorist shooting Charlie Hebdo comics then his Algerian heritage would soon come to the fore...

[Deleted User]

snotboogie wrote: »

You are conflating moving to a country as an adult with someone of a different ethnicity being born and raised in the country, which is the topic of the OP. Are you saying that Zlatan isn't considered Swedish in Sweden? Or that the French don't consider Zidane one of their own?

I’m not conflating anything. I was responding to a point another poster made, not the OP.

That’s permitted I believe.

[Deleted User]

Does shrimp have to be on the barbie?

snotboogie

Hamachi wrote: »

I’m not conflating anything. I was responding to a point another poster made, not the OP.

That’s permitted I believe.

You are though. You are conflating an adult living in a different European country for 10 years not being accepted as a national of that country with us "denying an Irish heritage and ethnicity" presumably because we accept non ethnically Irish people born and raised here as one of our own. In reality all Western European countries do the same.

gozunda

joe40 wrote: »

You're Irish, simple as that.

You may choose to identify with your Parents Country also that is up to you.

This notion of heritage or ethnicity is nonsense.

So would you say ethnic descriptors such as Afro Caribbean Or Indian are incorrect?

Ethnicity is simply a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes which distinguishes them from other groups such as shared or common folklore, culture, ancestry, history, society, religion etc.

And by that definition - a significant majority of the population in this country would be defined as ethically Irish ie belonging to an ethnic group
who trace their full or partial ancestry to Ireland and who share a common identity and culture.

That said there's plenty of wriggle room in such descriptors tbh.

TheValeyard

Hmmmm this seems trickier the more I read the thread.

Can definitely see both sides of the argument.