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Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

Lord TSC

Old thread here.

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[Deleted User]

Only six AEW made it, and five of those are ex-WWE.

Britt Baker the only 'homegrown' member of AEW to make top 50.

I'd be interested to see where Cornette would fit into all that.

beakerjoe

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I swear there's a collection of wrestlers in WWE who were open goal face stars that they've completely whiffed on and now they're heels.

Zayn, Otis, Cedric, Kalisto, Apollo, Ali.... thats just the top of my head.

Pentecost

Interesting to see Becky is still in the top 20 after nearly a year off screen. Sasha won't be happy being behind Alexa.

beakerjoe

Pentecost wrote: »

Interesting to see Becky is still in the top 20 after nearly a year off screen. Sasha won't be happy being behind Alexa.

I imagine shes and others are there because of being in Newsworthy stories such as her new born and her dads passing.

Its very interesting reading. Brandon always does great work.

Agent Coulson

Roman, Randy, Sasha, Bliss, Charlotte ,Asuka, Lana, Seth & Drew so only 9 of the top 25 are active full time talent and 5 of them are female.

The woman's revolution is working.

[Deleted User]

beakerjoe wrote: »

Zayn, Otis, Cedric, Kalisto, Apollo, Ali.... thats just the top of my head.

What's the definition of a star?

beakerjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the definition of a star?

That's fair, but look at some one these guys before the hit the main roster or in some cases NXT.

Uhaa Nation for example should have been a slam dunk. The guy was a great babyface on the indies, a genuine big smiled, super sympathetic babyface who connected with the fans. And he can wrestle a variety of styles. The rushed him through NXT without a direction, then threw him aimlessly on the main roster and did zero with him until last year. By that that he had been so badly booked, I never thought he'd recover.

Yeah hes not a star, but he had he been given a decent shot when he first came through the door, then yeah he could have been a star.

Bayleys a better example, because she proved she could connect with fans, young and old (esp young, a market WWE badly needs to grow long term). mishandled from day 1 on the main roster. has only really found her feet when she turned heel (something to her credit, I never thought she could do, felt she was like a Sting forever face.)

Shes a star, arguably the best womens wrestler going today.

[Deleted User]

Bayley was the ultimate f*ck up.

They had the women's equivalent of Cena on their hands there. Absolute money printer.

beakerjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

Bayley was the ultimate f*ck up.

They had the women's equivalent of Cena on their hands there. Absolute money printer.

Id say early on, she was potential to be a Rey Mysterio like star. A mid carder/upper mid carder who could appear to the younger audience. She came off as a natural babyface, she seemed genuine and she certainly connected with the NXT audience big time.

Her heel turn has been the making of her though, I never thought she'd get over as a heel initially considering how natural a babyface was. i was dead wrong. Shes become so confident in the last 2 years and has excelled to the point that I believe she should be their top heel and not Banks. Shes equally as good as her in the ring (its close TBF) but shes so much better at connecting with the audience than Sasha.

She's main event level now... the cream always rises.

savemejebus

beakerjoe wrote: »

she certainly connected with the NXT audience big time.

.

As has already been mentioned so did Emma. I seem to recall that he who won't be named was on here talking about how big Emma would be because she was so over in NXT and her dancing etc. Then she got called up and failed miserably, and despite all her talent never really recovered from it.

Getting over at NXT, well specifically at full sail, meant fcuk all.

It could actually be seen as the perfect representation of the sort of fans that post online about wrestling (5%) vs the mass audience (95%).

A wrestler, in this case Bayley, fulfills all the niche desires of the full sail audience (workrate, innovation, unique character) and gets super over there only to come up to the main roster and either be hobbled by typical WWE mistakes or in this case find out that being a super happy role model for girls with wacky waving arm flailing tube men for an entrance, who is a good worker means sweet fcuk all.

It doesn't click with the majority of the main audience, who most of the time don't care how good a worker someone is. It's great for the little girls but then again more boys watch wrestling than girls and they'll go for Super Cena or Roman Reigns, for everyone else the gimmick is roll eyes stupid and an impediment to getting over. Probably received as well as folk on here receive Vince's dumb ideas.

[Deleted User]

beakerjoe wrote: »

Id say early on, she was potential to be a Rey Mysterio like star. A mid carder/upper mid carder who could appear to the younger audience. She came off as a natural babyface, she seemed genuine and she certainly connected with the NXT audience big time.

Her heel turn has been the making of her though, I never thought she'd get over as a heel initially considering how natural a babyface was. i was dead wrong. Shes become so confident in the last 2 years and has excelled to the point that I believe she should be their top heel and not Banks. Shes equally as good as her in the ring (its close TBF) but shes so much better at connecting with the audience than Sasha.

She's main event level now... the cream always rises.

Don't get me wrong, I love heel Bayley, but there's so much more money to be made with her as a face.

I appreciate that we're arguing over who'll eat the last slice of pizza.

J. Marston

Getting over in Full Sail means nothing. A pair of blue pants got over in Full Sail.

[Deleted User]

J. Marston wrote: »

Getting over in Full Sail means nothing. A pair of blue pants got over in Full Sail.

Says Mr. 2002 Cena

The Nal

34 years ago today

23 years ago today

CastorTroy

With Emma, I said the whole dancing thing would be really awkward. The main roster entrance was much longer so just looks weird.

As for ones being big in NXT and not translating, the main problem is the characters are established in NXT and slowly built up, but then they get called up and people are seeing them for the first time with no background.
That's part of the commentary team's job to build them, but that's no good to a live crowd. Also doesn't help when the commentary team is very bad at doing that (I know they're saying what they're being fed)

beakerjoe

savemejebus wrote: »

As has already been mentioned so did Emma. I seem to recall that he who won't be named was on here talking about how big Emma would be because she was so over in NXT and her dancing etc. Then she got called up and failed miserably, and despite all her talent never really recovered from it.

Getting over at NXT, well specifically at full sail, meant fcuk all.

It could actually be seen as the perfect representation of the sort of fans that post online about wrestling (5%) vs the mass audience (95%).

A wrestler, in this case Bayley, fulfills all the niche desires of the full sail audience (workrate, innovation, unique character) and gets super over there only to come up to the main roster and either be hobbled by typical WWE mistakes or in this case find out that being a super happy role model for girls with wacky waving arm flailing tube men for an entrance, who is a good worker means sweet fcuk all.

It doesn't click with the majority of the main audience, who most of the time don't care how good a worker someone is. It's great for the little girls but then again more boys watch wrestling than girls and they'll go for Super Cena or Roman Reigns, for everyone else the gimmick is roll eyes stupid and an impediment to getting over. Probably received as well as folk on here receive Vince's dumb ideas.

Im not saying your wrong, but I think Emma and Bayley were mishandled.

Both Bayley and Emma started at the bottom and grew from there, slowly getting over and gathering pace.

When both women were dumped on the main roster, they assumed the WWE audience would get it straight away and they'd instantly over. They didnt.

I personally think Vince didnt get Emma at all, (personally neither did I,). It got over naturally in NXT, similar to Oranage Cassidy did, but to dump a gimmick like that on the main roster with no reason why was a huge misstep.

In Bayleys case, had they introduced her at teh bottom to the card, and slowly get over each week as a face, she would have faired better, dumping her at the deep end and expecting it to connect was doomed to fail.

beakerjoe

J. Marston wrote: »

Getting over in Full Sail means nothing. A pair of blue pants got over in Full Sail.

100 percent.

However, WWE could have easily got Bayley over on the main roster if they introduced her slowly.

Look at Otis, a comedy gimmick, he got over slowy because he was introduced slowly, week by week. They didnt drop him into the deep end by having him go straight into a feud.

Bayley could have benefited from a similar approach. not being plopped into a program with Charlotte.

beakerjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I love heel Bayley, but there's so much more money to be made with her as a face.

I appreciate that we're arguing over who'll eat the last slice of pizza.

Completely agree. Big misfire, Im just glad it worked out for her.

Itssoeasy

34 years ago today one of the greatest wrestling events took place in wrestlemania III. That opening shoot that pans from right to left is still one of the best ever. You had Vince and Howard finkel in the ring and aretha Franklin singing the anthem.

RollieFingers

It's funny that ROH had their big 19th anniversary show over the weekend and nobody gives a sh*t

I don't just mean on here but in general have seen very little coverage of the event anywhere. It was a very good show from an in-ring perspective with a decent closing angle but it just seems whatever they do they can't get much of a buzz going about the product at all. Always happy to see Homicide on my screen though!

savemejebus

beakerjoe wrote: »

Im not saying your wrong, but I think Emma and Bayley were mishandled...

Just my opinion but with Emma and Bayley I think the niche-ness of the gimmick was the killer. Both gimmicks were, in my mind destined for failure.

I could be wrong and I hope I am but an acid test will be Orange Cassidy. He is over with the AEW faithful, but as eyes on the product grow it will be interested to see how he goes. Loyal AEW viewers and audience members like it but as someone late to the show I cringed at seeing Miro sell for him, I read up and can kinda see some of the gimmick appeal now but being honest I still don't see him as anything except comedy wrestler now, hopefully that'll change.

That's me tho, how would Joe Average that just tuned in having seen nothing but WWE find him? Similar I think to the main WWE audience being introduced to an awkward dancing booty call and a hugger....not so well.

[Deleted User]

ROH peaked with an out of touch Cornette.

[Deleted User]

savemejebus wrote: »

Just my opinion but with Emma and Bayley I think the niche-ness of the gimmick was the killer. Both gimmicks were, in my mind destined for failure.

I could be wrong and I hope I am but an acid test will be Orange Cassidy. He is over with the AEW faithful, but as eyes on the product grow it will be interested to see how he goes. Loyal AEW viewers and audience members like it but as someone late to the show I cringed at seeing Miro sell for him, I read up and can kinda see some of the gimmick appeal now but being honest I still don't see him as anything except comedy wrestler now, hopefully that'll change.

That's me tho, how would Joe Average that just tuned in having seen nothing but WWE find him? Similar I think to the main WWE audience being introduced to an awkward dancing booty call and a hugger....not so well.

That's a fair point regarding the average viewer.

I remember buying some Bayley merch despite rarely watching WWE, but I'd rather wipe me arse with a twenty than give it to AEW for Orange Cassidy.

Obviously that's anecdotal and means bollocks all, but Bayley and Emma weren't play-kicking their opponents.

Orange Cassidy is taking a piss in the viewer's mouth.

LineOfBeauty

RollieFingers wrote: »

It's funny that ROH had their big 19th anniversary show over the weekend and nobody gives a sh*t

I don't just mean on here but in general have seen very little coverage of the event anywhere. It was a very good show from an in-ring perspective with a decent closing angle but it just seems whatever they do they can't get much of a buzz going about the product at all. Always happy to see Homicide on my screen though!

I watched it last night and thought the same thing. The turn on Amy Rose with Bestia spearing her didn't cause any outrage at all whereas the Ospreay/Bea angle was a big talking point after NJPW did it. The other one I thought might cause a stir was Rush spitting on Lethal in their match, but again, saw nothing about it.

The show was an easy watch. First four matches all had rubbish finishes. Really enjoyed the Mexisquad three way dance (****), ambitious, innovative spots though bit sloppy in parts. My favourite match was Gresham/Dak, really excellent big man/little man match, psychology was on point and that finish with the suicide dive into a choke sleeper was insane (****). Main event was really good too with not as much interference as other Rush title matches (***3/4) and the show closing angle came across pretty hot to me at least.

CastorTroy

Wasn't RoH the biggest indy show before they lost all their talent for various reasons?
They haven't bounced back since.
The pandemic didn't help as it was mostly best ofs for a long time and now it feels so different just having someone between each match introducing it.
But a big part that really makes it feel cheap is those ads

beakerjoe

savemejebus wrote: »

Just my opinion but with Emma and Bayley I think the niche-ness of the gimmick was the killer. Both gimmicks were, in my mind destined for failure.

I could be wrong and I hope I am but an acid test will be Orange Cassidy. He is over with the AEW faithful, but as eyes on the product grow it will be interested to see how he goes. Loyal AEW viewers and audience members like it but as someone late to the show I cringed at seeing Miro sell for him, I read up and can kinda see some of the gimmick appeal now but being honest I still don't see him as anything except comedy wrestler now, hopefully that'll change.

That's me tho, how would Joe Average that just tuned in having seen nothing but WWE find him? Similar I think to the main WWE audience being introduced to an awkward dancing booty call and a hugger....not so well.

I think the shine has already come off OC. Maybe its just his current feud, but the gimmick was once fresh has now jumped the shark for me.

He has taken it as far as he can and now needs to evolve.

Itssoeasy

23 years ago tonight the Austin era began with Austin beating HBK at wrestle mania 14 in Boston.

There was the tag team battle royal with LOD entering and winning with sunny as their manager.

There was the cruiserweight match which I loved at the time.

There was the tag titles match in a dumpster match with Foley and terry funk vs the NAO.

There was the taker vs Kane match which was okay given it was too big lads.

There was the main event which was okay in spite of HBKs back giving out after a buckle spot and to his credit he toughed it out. This event was the only one I bought the VHS as opposed to recording it myself. I did watch it live but didn’t record it.

Neil3030

Danhausen is very quickly becoming my favourite act in wrestling.

B.A._Baracus

CastorTroy wrote: »

Wasn't RoH the biggest indy show before they lost all their talent for various reasons?
They haven't bounced back since.
The pandemic didn't help as it was mostly best ofs for a long time and now it feels so different just having someone between each match introducing it.
But a big part that really makes it feel cheap is those ads

Exactly!
I find ROH to be meh now but it's not ROH's fault. They have always had an amazing ability to make new ROH stars. But then said stars just get offered deals elsewhere by WWE and then ROH roster is skeleton again.

[Deleted User]

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I watched it last night and thought the same thing. The turn on Amy Rose with Bestia spearing her didn't cause any outrage at all whereas the Ospreay/Bea angle was a big talking point after NJPW did it.

In regards to these and male on female violence in wrestling. Why was the Osprey Bea thing controversial? Is it because within the context of that promotion that its not a done thing?

Intergender wrestling became a big talking point when Tessa won impact championship and reaction to that seemed positive.