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Leinster Vs Munster Pro 14 final build up thread

[Deleted User]

To save two team threads getting messy

Here's a thread for you to get you started

Munster looking for their first silverware in 10 years
Leinster going for 4 in a row

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letowski

Clegg wrote: »

Also, for as much effort as Farrell and De Allende put in, they really produced very little. They're such a blunt attack instrument that Leinster could read wherever attacks where coming through midfield. Best example when Munster tried an out the back pass to Farrell in the wider channel. Henshaw read if from a mile off and smashed Farrell ten metres behind the gain line.

It's hard when you're forwards aren't giving you any sort of attacking platform, but Munster have shelled out a lot to get them into the province and in coached to get the best out of them, but they're getting very little in return.

I don’t think Van Graan has any idea how to use DDA. At the start of the season he was used ineffectively in outside area before DDA approached him over his role. But he still hasn’t got going here. We don’t look to get runners off his shoulder and utilise his offloading/ball skills. Very frustrating. As syd said, I don’t think Van Graan has taken Munster forward, certainly from an attack point of view anyway.

salmocab

KH25 wrote: »

Am I the only person who isn’t at all enthused by the rainbow cup? I don’t see why we can’t just wait until next season for the pro16.

I’m not particularly bothered about the rainbow cup, it’s a once off space filler (which I’m still sceptical about happening) but delighted the saffers are joining the league.

molloyjh

Leinster missing a few starters from the XV and butchered a number of opportunities. Yet in the end were pretty comfortable winners. Munster barely got into the Leinster 22. It was a strange game. Munster didn't fire a shot but Leinster managed to keep them in the game in the first half. Once Leinster tidied up a few elements of their game in the second half it was game over.

There was a lot of talk during the week about how Munster had closed the gap. It was built up in such a way that I was getting 2009 vibes from it all. But Munsters 6 points came from 2 silly Leinster errors. They created nothing.

In some ways I think Leinster were lucky. None of our forwards clocked up huge minutes in the 6Ns. But Beirne and CJ both looked shot out there today whereas only Healy had big minutes out of the Leinster pack. I thought Henshaw faded in the second half so hopefully he's okay for a 6 day turnaround. Joey probably needed more time back before a big game like that. But I'm not sold on DDA at all. This guy is a REC winning centre. He's certainly earning a big wage. He's not playing badly, but thats a signing that should be stamping their authority on games and making a big impression. I haven't seen much of Munster this season, but from what I have seen he has been decent without being great. That's not enough for such a big signing. Snyman was hugely missed too.

But on todays evidence the gap hasn't really closed much at all. Leinster uncharacteristically left at least 3 tries out there through their own errors. That scoreline could have been much worse than it was. The questions about the coaches remain too.

From a Leinster perspective we looked a little off at times but that's to be expected with reintegrating so many. It bodes well enough for next week that we created as much as we did. Small tweaks to ensure we finish those chances is all we really need. And time in camp will go a long way to doing that.

thomond2006

KH25 wrote: »

Am I the only person who isn’t at all enthused by the rainbow cup? I don’t see why we can’t just wait until next season for the pro16.

The Rainbow Cup was done primarily for the Springbok players to get tune up games for the Lions series. The SA teams have only been able to play against each other since Covid. The Pro14 unions need the Lions series to be a success.

KH25

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Rainbow Cup was done primarily for the Springbok players to get tune up games for the Lions series. The SA teams have only been able to play against each other since Covid. The Pro14 unions need the Lions series to be a success.

Didn’t think of it that way. The whole thing just seems a bit forced. Great to get the South African teams involved though.

sebdavis

Anyone think that Ross Byrne skills are more suited to Munster than Carbery ever will? Byrne would compliment the Munster players better.....

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The ref bottled it, it was definitely a high tackle and a penalty at least.

I don't think it would have been a red card though.

I don't think so. The referee clearly said that the TMO looked at it and that the tackler was passive, Kleyn ran into him. I've watched it back and Porter just stands there. He doesn't change his height, stance etc. Kleyn is tackled by another player and falls into Porter.

It would have been an incredibly harsh card.

I do wonder why it didn't result in a HIA though given it was clearly a fairly significant head collision.

Burkie1203

sebdavis wrote: »

Anyone think that Ross Byrne skills are more suited to Munster than Carbery ever will? Byrne would compliment the Munster players better.....

Apart from his ability to nail clutch kicks at important moments you mean?

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

I don't think so. The referee clearly said that the TMO looked at it and that the tackler was passive, Kleyn ran into him. I've watched it back and Porter just stands there. He doesn't change his height, stance etc. Kleyn is tackled by another player and falls into Porter.

It would have been an incredibly harsh card.

I do wonder why it didn't result in a HIA though given it was clearly a fairly significant head collision.

Yep, Kleyn ran/fell into Porter. At worst Porter is standing still and not actively doing anything. At best he is actually moving his body backwards to get ready for the jackal. I dont see that as a penalty, let alone a card. And the TMO clearly looked at it and agreed.

Buer

sebdavis wrote: »

Anyone think that Ross Byrne skills are more suited to Munster than Carbery ever will? Byrne would compliment the Munster players better.....

Carbery is extremely talented. He does not (and never has) boss a game though. Munster's approach is always to allow a scrum half run a game and Carbery steps in then the opportunity presents itself. It's incredible that an outhalf only touched the ball 9 times (according to ESPN) in 70 minutes. JJH touched it 7 times in 10 minutes.

There's obviously a tactic to keep him back until the opportunity is there to inject pace and creativity into a stretched defence. But when the opposition can front up and slow down ball or own possession as we saw tonight, Carbery is anonymous.

In those circumstances, give me Byrne every day. He's not nearly as talented. But he is allowed to play the game to his strengths. He demands the ball. He kicks very well both from hand and the tee. He defends very well.

If Carbery wants the Irish jersey, he needs more responsibility as an outhalf and I can't see JVG giving him that.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

I don't think so. The referee clearly said that the TMO looked at it and that the tackler was passive, Kleyn ran into him. I've watched it back and Porter just stands there. He doesn't change his height, stance etc. Kleyn is tackled by another player and falls into Porter.

It would have been an incredibly harsh card.

I do wonder why it didn't result in a HIA though given it was clearly a fairly significant head collision.

He wraps. He didn't just stand there. The fact he's wrapping is what makes him a tackler. He's responsible for that.

I agree it would have been a harsh card, but it was absolutely a penalty.

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He wraps. He didn't just stand there. The fact he's wrapping is what makes him a tackler. He's responsible for that.

I agree it would have been a harsh card, but it was absolutely a penalty.

I could see a penalty being given (although that opens a can of worms in terms of admitting foul play) but a card would be unfair. The carrier running into someone regardless of the defender lifting their arms to wrap or not really shouldn't mean that the defender is then liable for the actions of the carrier.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/ek_rugby/status/1375886255217594370?s=19

mfceiling

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

What a weird time to stop watching a game when there's a score in it.

Not really. Munster didn't look like they were going to threaten Leinster and as is always the case, Leinster were going to win the game.

Pussyhands

First time I've watched Munster this season. Have they been this average all season?

Their attacking play was so one dimensional. I was watching them constantly run into the defence in the second half, getting nowhere thinking put in a cross field kick or something and nothing...

Stander didn't look interested in the game at all.

Yeah_Right

That was a pretty boring match. Finals often are but Leinster just strangled the life out of the game. Dominant set piece, all the possession and territory, and a suffocating defence. It was a Saracens like performance. Munster had no answers and Leinster deserved it.

I thought Munster should have changed their halves earlier. Murray was back to his low standards of 2019 and 2020. Casey at least looked to change the pace of the game. Carbery couldn't get into the match. Would have liked to have seen Carbery and JJ on together either at 10 and 12 or 10 and 15 just to at least try something different.

Just on the Porter high shot, yes he was standing there and wrapped his arms but I thought the onus was on the defender to get low. Vunipola ran into Aki and Aki got sent off because he didn't get low enough. Kleyn ran into Porter and Porter didn't get low enough so his shoulder connected with Kleyn's head. You can then talk about mitigation as Kleyn was falling and you can discuss how much force was involved. Penalty at the minimum, possibly a yellow. What is definite is that it was another bad call by Neville as a TMO.

Buer

Vunipola didn't run into Aki. He ran at Aki who then drove forwards and upwards into Vunipola's jaw.

Porter didn't drive forward. The point of contact was initiated by Kleyn.

Pussyhands

Rhys Ruddock is a tank. Terrible shame he's not featured more for Ireland.

Deusexmachina

sydthebeat wrote: »

And suffer another 2 months of a completely one sided pro 14 (sic 12)

Nah... No thanks

At least they had the good grace to put this years league out of its misery early and without excess suffering

To be honest, I think pro rugby is far too greedy. The only real compelling league would be a league that includes the French, Irish, English, Scots and Welsh. Two divisions with promotion / relegation.

Wouldn’t that be fantastic.

Yeah_Right

Buer wrote: »

Vunipola didn't run into Aki. He ran at Aki who then drove forwards and upwards into Vunipola's jaw.

Porter didn't drive forward. The point of contact was initiated by Kleyn.

Run into, run at. You're being pedantic. Is the responsibility on the defender to get low? Kleyn ran "at" Porter. Porter went to tackle him, made no effort to lower his height and his shoulder made contact with Kleyn's head. It's a penalty at least. Probably a yellow.

Buer

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Run into, run at. You're being pedantic. Is the responsibility on the defender to get low? Kleyn ran "at" Porter. Porter went to tackle him, made no effort to lower his height and his shoulder made contact with Kleyn's head. It's a penalty at least. Probably a yellow.

OK, let me rephrase it. Vunipola ran towards Aki. Aki then came forward and changed his body position to initiate contact on Vunipola's jaw.

Kleyn ran towards Porter and was then tackled by another player. Porter did not change his stance, body height or move forward. Kleyn fell forward and his head collided with Porter's shoulder. The contact was not due to Porter's movement. Kleyn's face would have collided with Porter regardless of what Porter did.

Burkie1203

Buer wrote: »

OK, let me rephrase it. Vunipola ran towards Aki. Aki then came forward and changed his body position to initiate contact on Vunipola's jaw.

Kleyn ran towards Porter and was then tackled by another player. Porter did not change his stance, body height or move forward. Kleyn fell forward and his head collided with Porter's shoulder. The contact was not due to Porter's movement. Kleyn's face would have collided with Porter regardless of what Porter did.

I dont think Porter was Expecting Kleyn to get the ball given that he ran beyond Stander who passed to him anyway

armchaircoach

breezy1985 wrote: »

Silly child's way of looking at sport. Beating teams in league games and beating them in finals ain't the same

If only one of these teams had beaten Leinster in a final then?

Yeah_Right

Buer wrote: »

OK, let me rephrase it. Vunipola ran towards Aki. Aki then came forward and changed his body position to initiate contact on Vunipola's jaw.

Kleyn ran towards Porter and was then tackled by another player. Porter did not change his stance, body height or move forward. Kleyn fell forward and his head collided with Porter's shoulder. The contact was not due to Porter's movement. Kleyn's face would have collided with Porter regardless of what Porter did.

Yes Kleyn ran at Porter. I agree. Yes Kleyn dropped in height just before contact. My understanding is that a change in height by the ball carrier is mitigation not absolution. Am I wrong? Was Porter standing upright or was he bending at the waist and hips? I thought the responsibility was on the tackler to lower their height.

Tell me, if Aki had just stood upright when Vunipola ran "at" him and his shoulder hit Vunipola in the head, sorry Vunipola's head hit Aki's shoulder, would that mean no penalty?

AbusesToilets

On a different tack, how did Earls not get called for a penalty when he deliberately knocked down the ball after he took that quick throw in? Potential for penalty try there

Quin_Dub

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yes Kleyn ran at Porter. I agree. Yes Kleyn dropped in height just before contact. My understanding is that a change in height by the ball carrier is mitigation not absolution. Am I wrong? Was Porter standing upright or was he bending at the waist and hips? I thought the responsibility was on the tackler to lower their height.

Tell me, if Aki had just stood upright when Vunipola ran "at" him and his shoulder hit Vunipola in the head, sorry Vunipola's head hit Aki's shoulder, would that mean no penalty?

Correct. It wouldn't have been a card or a penalty

stephen_n

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yes Kleyn ran at Porter. I agree. Yes Kleyn dropped in height just before contact. My understanding is that a change in height by the ball carrier is mitigation not absolution. Am I wrong? Was Porter standing upright or was he bending at the waist and hips? I thought the responsibility was on the tackler to lower their height.

Tell me, if Aki had just stood upright when Vunipola ran "at" him and his shoulder hit Vunipola in the head, sorry Vunipola's head hit Aki's shoulder, would that mean no penalty?

Basically what you’re suggesting, is players could just run around the pitch, headfirst into stationary players and earn penalties and cards. Aki attempted a tackle, drove up and made contact with the head. The two incidents aren’t even remotely comparable.

ElisaAtWar

So Munster have the brawn. But the reality is that Leinster have that in spades and then much more. And that is the real difference between the teams. Leinster easily match the brawn of Munster and what's left after that for Munster. Van Graan adds nothing

Yeah_Right

stephen_n wrote: »

Basically what you’re suggesting, is players could just run around the pitch, headfirst into stationary players and earn penalties and cards. Aki attempted a tackle, drove up and made contact with the head. The two incidents aren’t even remotely comparable.

Both players (Aki and Porter) made tackles that involved their shoulders contacting the carriers head. Do we agree? In one case the tackler drove up and forward made contact with force. Red card. In the other, the tackler made zero effort to lower his height, the carrier dropped in height and you and some others here say that's fine. Ok. Kind of like Henshaw and Caine a few years back I guess.

prawnsambo

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Both players (Aki and Porter) made tackles that involved their shoulders contacting the carriers head. Do we agree? In one case the tackler drove up and forward made contact with force. Red card. In the other, the tackler made zero effort to lower his height, the carrier dropped in height and you and some others here say that's fine. Ok. Kind of like Henshaw and Caine a few years back I guess.

Whatever is was, it wasn't a red card, so probably of no real consequence to the result. Even a yellow probably wouldn't have made much difference.