Sunny Disposition wrote: » Saw Biden today talking about what ‘the Brits’ did to his ancestors, the arc of history is long! Can imagine Dodds and Sammy Wilson fit to burst with rage when they heard the comment!
Sunny Disposition wrote: » Wonder do the unionists mind at all that the Brits were following policies that saw people starving to death during the 19th Century? Or do they realise that the plantation of Ulster was an awful thing? Or the shooting of people on Bloody Sunday was ano outrage? Most nationalists despise most of what the RA did from the 70s onwards, do the unionists mind in the least? They really don’t seem to.
downcow wrote: » Do you feel most nationalists dispise the ira who done these things?
Sunny Disposition wrote: » Not sure he did, he said his great grandfather got on a coffin shop in the Irish Sea, didn’t say it crossed the Irish Sea, just that was where his ancestor boarded. Anyway, we’’d have forgiven him the mistake if he’d made it!
Sunny Disposition wrote: » I do think that, it was certainly the case when I lived in an IRA heartland in 1972. Liked it when they killed loyalists, not anyone else.
RobMc59 wrote: » Not sure I understand the last sentence of this post?
Sunny Disposition wrote: » People generally approved when a Loyalist was killed, but not anyone else. Tbf I’d imagine the Protestant side was the same, pleased when IRA men were killed, but not civilians.
JimmyVik wrote: » People get desensitized to this stuff.
downcow wrote: » Can I assume you mean loyalist terrorists? As opposed to loyalists I can’t comment on ‘Catholics’ but certainly ‘protestants’ did/do not think as one homogeneous group - there would be a full range of views when a republican terrorist got killed from celebration to dismay
[Deleted User] wrote: » Yeah catholic’s all think as one... you should know that downcow my goodness...
downcow wrote: » This is an interesting piece https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/still-reeling-from-boris-johnsons-betrayal-dup-founding-member-says-hes-questioning-the-union-3176182
Fionn1952 wrote: » Colour me surprised, Downcow.....I agree with you. There's only so much insight to be taken from the opinion of one person, but it hits on exactly what I've asked you (perhaps less eloquently) several times; how many times do NI Unionists have to be screwed before they start questioning exactly what they're loyal to and why. Perhaps if someone like Wallace Thompson is making great strides towards getting past his fear and concerns about being part of a United Ireland, perhaps the concerns of a self-professed moderate like yourself are overblown too. Like Wallace Thompson, I'm sure you'll still vote for the Union if a border poll was called, but maybe if it doesn't go your way it would be worth reevaluating your, 'can't guarantee you would remain peaceful' outlook.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Wallace has a wee ways to go in his 'understanding'. He bemoans the fact that 'too many nationalist politicians and commentators seem either unable or unwilling to understand the Ulster Protestant mindset. It is often portrayed by them as triumphalist and sectarian whereas it is based on genuinely held and legitimate principles.' When your experience is of a 'triumphalist and sectarian mindset' again and again as you strive for equality and parity of esteem, it is entirely legitimate to portray it as that. It 'would help' if Unionism recognised that. But I welcome his leadership here and he seems to be willing to engage in a conversation about a United Ireland, the political representatives of Unionism need to overcome their fear of that, as well. Hiding behind Gregory Campbell style bluster won't make it go away.
Sunny Disposition wrote: » Yes, terrorists. Back in the day there wouldn't have been any sympathy if someone in the UDA got killed around where I was living, these guys were only a few streets away and frequently came over to shoot people who had no involvement at all. But most people did not agree with the IRA campaign. What I was questioning originally Downcow, do most (not all, but most) Protestants accept that the Plantation of Ulster was terribly wrong, that the treatment of Catholics post partition was also terribly wrong as was Bloody Sunday? No doubt the vast majority of Catholics think that things like the Enniskillen bombing and La Mon were atrocities.
downcow wrote: » Fionn. I read you post in a very positive and was thinking how I would respond honestly. They I came to your jibe about a comment I made months ago, was clumsy, which I have agreed could have been clearer and have clarified. and which many keep repeating on here. Anyhow that’s your issue and not mine. As for being screwed over by the U.K. the question comes from a lack of understanding of what the U.K. is. I am the U.K. so it’s I bit like asking someone in Dublin are they not fed up being screwed over by Ireland
downcow wrote: » I agree with what you are saying. Most prods I know (and myself - I’ve moved on somewhat since then)were happy when ira terrorists were killed. Tbh we could not contain our pleasure when they started killing themselves. You said most nationalists despised the ira. I was asking did that include eg the hunger strikers ie did they despise Bobby sands. I’m genuinely interested in what you think on this.
Hamsterchops wrote: » Who is driving all this "United Ireland" chat anyway? Are the people of Northern Ireland chomping at the bit to become part of this Republic? or is the UI agenda being pushed and orchestrated by Dublin? Why he the urge to extract them and their problems from London, only to have their complicated dysfunctionality integrated into this Republic! Is that what we really want?
Sunny Disposition wrote: » No, clearly they didn't. Most didn't know him of course, and there was more tolerance of the low level guys, especially ones you didn't know personally. It was felt that the anger was understandable but it didn't justify what was happening. The likes of Sands would have been seen as misguided, and somewhat unfortunate to be put in the spot that history had put him, plus it was felt that he was a political prisoner and it was churlish not to treat him as such. It was a huge boost for the IRA at the time, it kept them going when they would have kept losing support. It was a brilliant devised hunger strike, made the Brits look cruel and made a martyr out of someone who would have not been widely respected otherwise I wouldn't blame anyone who was happy when paramilitaries were killed tbh, people were petrified of what they were doing and a lot of innocent people were killed by them. Can't blame anyone who doesn't forgive or who was appalled at the reinvention of the likes of McGuinness. But again, can many from the Unionist position see that Catholics have been treated disgracefully? The plantation was an atrocity, disgraceful historical crime. So was the treatment of Catholics for decades after partition, can your tradition see why NI exploded in the way it did? I wouldn't know enough unionists to get a real feel for this, and I'm obviously a bit slow to get into it, but my sense is a lot do get the nationalist grievances.
downcow wrote: » I appreciate the honesty in your post. As for the issues you raise. I see the plantation as something long back in history. Who are you going to blame? Those living in Dublin now whose ancestors benifited? Do you blame my people? - some of whom arrived during the plantation and most who did not arrive during the plantation. Presbyterians were treated worse than Catholics by the Anglican rulers at times - we have let it go. We don’t blame our Anglican neighbours. I honestly think it’s nuts to refer to the plantation as a factor today. It was a long time before land was taken off native Americans, auusies, etc, etc. I think it’s this old victim mentality. If it’s not the plantation then it’s the famine. Many of your people benefited from both. Bloody Sunday is over-egged. It was very unfortunate but it certainly wasn’t any worse (and I would suggest not as bad as) la mon etc. These were protesters and there was a riot taking place. The people in la mon were having dinner and were burned to death simply because they were Protestant . Many Catholics were treated badly after partition and it was blatant sectarianism and to be condemned. But you are missing the context. They were seen by those running the country as out to wreck the country (no excuse) but a reality. I do get fed up with nonsense like Catholics didn’t have the vote etc - just lies. These issues were all complex but I am accepting us brits got it very wrong a lot of the time I am sorry for that. But I have to stomach the constant innocence being portrayed by many on this forum of the Irish. You Irish have discriminated against us brits in a major way also but seem in denial. No acceptance by many of the vicious sectarian campaigns of the ira. No responsibility taken for 70% of the Protestant population having to get out of ROI, nor the mass movement of people in ni eg 90%+ of the Protestant population of derry have to set up new communities on the waterside and those that are left living in a fortress. No acceptance of the sectarianism of the ira cleansing entire towns of Protestants eg my home town Etc etc
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