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United Ireland Poll - please vote

bonzothedog

Simple question - if there was a poll for a United Ireland would you vote yes or no - or yes but it would have to happen within 10 years.

Assumptions - there is economic sense to it and that Ireland can afford it.

The majority of the north want it and opinion polls are showing this. The background work has been done and the unionists though far from happy have reluctantly agreed with accepting the vote's result.

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Comments

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

No TD is against a united Ireland, no Irish person is against it either, just they have different preconditions. Mine are much much higher than yours, that is all.

Ok.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

Mine are much much higher than yours, that is all.

You want a UI as much as I want Ireland back in the UK.

This issue isn't going away.

Ever.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You want a UI as much as I want Ireland back in the UK.

This issue isn't going away.

Ever.

Oh, I have no doubt, just look at the Greeks and their eyes on North Macedonia, just look at India/Pakistan, just look at Turkey and the Kurds, the toxic ideology of nationalism doesn't die that easily.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, I have no doubt, just look at the Greeks and their eyes on North Macedonia, just look at India/Pakistan, just look at Turkey and the Kurds, the toxic ideology of nationalism doesn't die that easily.

British Nationalism is the problem in Ireland and will continue to be until it is neutered.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, I have no doubt, just look at the Greeks and their eyes on North Macedonia, just look at India/Pakistan, just look at Turkey and the Kurds, the toxic ideology of nationalism doesn't die that easily.

Or the U.S.S.R and East Germany or the British and their claim to Northern Ireland.
It's funny how for some people wanting a United Ireland is the toxic thing while the British with their record, presence and occupation is accepted.

FrancieBrady

I posted before about this. In the run up to a border poll there'll be plenty of amateur economists and economists with an agenda, typing furiously. We have had them here already. We have even had people posting Graham Gudgin work here as gospel. I include republican agenda's in that too.

This is a very good piece on the inherent dangers of listening to agenda driven 'experts' slant their figures and analysis.

http://qpol.qub.ac.uk/comparing-living-standards-north-and-south/?fbclid=IwAR0oirEOjv8Ov5FMMMuRPK-MlbIubGGXG-G5iHg_aGStr_0X7gsy_6oPtEI

Jinglejangle69

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I posted before about this. In the run up to a border poll there'll be plenty of amateur economists and economists with an agenda, typing furiously. We have had them here already. We have even had people posting Graham Gudgin work here as gospel. I include republican agenda's in that too.

This is a very good piece on the inherent dangers of listening to agenda driven 'experts' slant their figures and analysis.

http://qpol.qub.ac.uk/comparing-living-standards-north-and-south/?fbclid=IwAR0oirEOjv8Ov5FMMMuRPK-MlbIubGGXG-G5iHg_aGStr_0X7gsy_6oPtEI

Posters typing furiously, the irony:)

This poll is interesting.

end of the road

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Posters typing furiously, the irony:)

This poll is interesting.

not really, the yes vote is winning all be it split between now and in 10 years.
but either way, more people want it then dont', it doesn't matter when they want it as long as they do.

Jinglejangle69

end of the road wrote: »

not really, the yes vote is winning all be it split between now and in 10 years.
but either way, more people want it then dont', it doesn't matter when they want it as long as they do.

The yes vote is winning??????

FrancieBrady

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Posters typing furiously, the irony:)

This poll is interesting.

What's 'interesting' about it? It's that 'interesting' I haven't even bothered to vote. I never vote in polls here...what is the point?

end of the road

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

The yes vote is winning??????

yes, over 53% of people want it ultimately, some want it soon as and others want to wait a bit.
but the majority in the pole do want it and that is the important thing.

Jinglejangle69

end of the road wrote: »

yes, over 53% of people want it ultimately, some want it soon as and others want to wait a bit.
but the majority in the pole do want it and that is the important thing.

Apologies I thought you meant yes right now.

My mistake.

Greyfox

blanch152 wrote: »

No TD is against a united Ireland, no Irish person is against it either

Your wrong, im against it. A UI would be a victory for people who like to force their opinions onto others and a victory for people who love living in the past. Those who want a UI are still unable to sell what the benifits of one would be, they have thrown common sense out the window and have let romantic dreams take over.

end of the road

Greyfox wrote: »

Your wrong, im against it. A UI would be a victory for people who like to force their opinions onto others and a victory for people who love living in the past. Those who want a UI are still unable to sell what the benifits of one would be, they have thrown common sense out the window and have let romantic dreams take over.

this is all incorrect, those who want a UI are stuck in the future, stuck in modernisation, only do common sense and don't do romantic dreams but do reality.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I posted before about this. In the run up to a border poll there'll be plenty of amateur economists and economists with an agenda, typing furiously. We have had them here already. We have even had people posting Graham Gudgin work here as gospel. I include republican agenda's in that too.

This is a very good piece on the inherent dangers of listening to agenda driven 'experts' slant their figures and analysis.

http://qpol.qub.ac.uk/comparing-living-standards-north-and-south/?fbclid=IwAR0oirEOjv8Ov5FMMMuRPK-MlbIubGGXG-G5iHg_aGStr_0X7gsy_6oPtEI

Interesting article, I found this the most relevant quote:

"If a referendum is called, it will be too late to do that research and seek to discuss it in the white heat of a referendum campaign."

I made a suggestion earlier in the thread that the best thing for a SOS to do would be to hold an indicative referendum detached from the GFA asking whether people in the North wanted to have the issue of reunification put on the table. Subject to a yes, this could be followed by a process whereby all of the questions could be answered right down to how much social welfare would be cut in the South, how many public service redundancies would take place in the North and how much income tax would increase for everyone. After that, we could have a proper GFA vote where everyone knew what would happen.

Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever come to pass, because SF are afraid of such a vote.

gmisk

I voted no.
I am originally from northern ireland, trust me it is best left as it is!

blanch152

Greyfox wrote: »

Your wrong, im against it. A UI would be a victory for people who like to force their opinions onto others and a victory for people who love living in the past. Those who want a UI are still unable to sell what the benifits of one would be, they have thrown common sense out the window and have let romantic dreams take over.

I have a lot of sympathy for that view. 100 years have passed and the North is a very different society than the South. Where I think this should go is that the parties that want a united Ireland should focus on reducing the difference between the two. The recent vote where SF abstained on abortion rights in the North was a big blow to any efforts to unite this island.

A united Ireland will cost some people an awful lot of money, that much is clear. With the divergence over 100 years, everything from health to education, from taxation to social welfare is vastly different. Harmonisation comes with a cost.

In that context, I am not surprised that young people in the South who worry about jobs, who worry about owning their own house, believe that taking on the problems of the North is a step too far.

Zaph

blanch152 wrote: »

No TD is against a united Ireland, no Irish person is against it either, just they have different preconditions. Mine are much much higher than yours, that is all.

Greyfox wrote: »

Your wrong, im against it. A UI would be a victory for people who like to force their opinions onto others and a victory for people who love living in the past. Those who want a UI are still unable to sell what the benifits of one would be, they have thrown common sense out the window and have let romantic dreams take over.

I'm against it too, but on economic grounds more than anything. NI is economically a basket case that requires huge propping up by the UK government. Take that away and they suffer massively unless it's replaced by a load of cash from Dublin instead. That money simply doesn't exist, so you'll end up screwing up an OK economy to prop up to at least some extent one that can't support itself. The net result will be one single economy with everybody on the island worse off. If NI can prove that they can function without the UK subvention for at least a decade, then I would be happy to reconsider my position, but as it stands I don't want to be financially worse off for something that tbh I'm indifferent about anyway. As Greyfox said, nobody has been able to clearly state any tangible benefits to a UI, and wouldn't it be great to have all Ireland living under the one flag just isn't sufficient for me.

FrancieBrady

Greyfox wrote: »

Your wrong, im against it. A UI would be a victory for people who like to force their opinions onto others and a victory for people who love living in the past. Those who want a UI are still unable to sell what the benifits of one would be, they have thrown common sense out the window and have let romantic dreams take over.

At least you are honest. A lot more will have to be come the campaign.

I know to some of our political class and some here it is anathema but they dishonestly pretend to be for it. Their discomfort will be fun to watch as will their discomfort being on the same side as some of the most bigoted fundamentalist suprematists these islands have seen - the DUP/TUV types.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

At least you are honest. A lot more will have to be come the campaign.

I know to some of our political class and some here it is anathema but they dishonestly pretend to be for it. Their discomfort will be fun to watch as will their discomfort being on the same side as some of the most bigoted fundamentalist suprematists these islands have seen - the DUP/TUV types.

Explain again to me how people who oppose a UI on cost grounds are on the same side as the DUP?

Zaph

FrancieBrady wrote: »

At least you are honest. A lot more will have to be come the campaign.

I know to some of our political class and some here it is anathema but they dishonestly pretend to be for it. Their discomfort will be fun to watch as will their discomfort being on the same side as some of the most bigoted fundamentalist suprematists these islands have seen - the DUP/TUV types.

I don't see that as an issue tbh. It is possible to oppose the same thing as the next guy but for entirely different reasons. Just because you want the same result doesn't mean that you agree with his reason for wanting it.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Explain again to me how people who oppose a UI on cost grounds are on the same side as the DUP?

Both don't want a UI. That's the same side.

FrancieBrady

Zaph wrote: »

I don't see that as an issue tbh. It is possible to oppose the same thing as the next guy but for entirely different reasons. Just because you want the same result doesn't mean that you agree with his reason for wanting it.

Say a Border Poll succeeds, can you imagine being the political party or TD who was against it?

The political fallout of that would be so scary, the politicians to whom it is anathema to, will keep up the pretence in my opinion.

That 'not wanting to be seen as an ally of bigots' will be an 'issue' IMO. You'll find it very hard to get political party support as a result.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Both don't want a UI. That's the same side.

That's exactly how it would play out.

dd973

Reunification should be seen as an opportunity, a 6m plus population, the only Anglophone EU country, the possibility of High Speed Rail from Belfast to Dublin and Cork, proper motorway and rail links from Belfast to a Derry which will be more economically integrated with it's Donegal hinterland. It should be sold as a more enticing prospect than being 1/25th of a moribund U.K that the Scots want out of. The Scots getting independence would I believe reduce the rose tinted view of Britain that the PUL community have.

Why would an IRA of any stripe exist post reunification either? That's one angle the DUP types never proffer when reunification is discussed.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Both don't want a UI. That's the same side.

That is an overly simplistic attitude.

The Orange Order and the PIRA have similar attitudes to restrictions on displays of sectarianism. Does that mean they are on the same side?

drunkmonkey

I voted no, I'm comfortable with the idea someone else is running a different part of the country to keep our Government in check.

blanch152

dd973 wrote: »

Reunification should be seen as an opportunity, a 6m plus population, the only Anglophone EU country, the possibility of High Speed Rail from Belfast to Dublin and Cork, proper motorway and rail links from Belfast to a Derry which will be more economically integrated with it's Donegal hinterland. It should be sold as a more enticing prospect than being 1/25th of a moribund U.K that the Scots want out of. The Scots getting independence would I believe reduce the rose tinted view of Britain that the PUL community have.

Why would an IRA of any stripe exist post reunification either? That's one angle the DUP types never proffer when reunification is discussed.

Delusional economics never got us anywhere. You probable support the reopening of the Western Rail Corridor and advocate for a train to Donegal.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Say a Border Poll succeeds, can you imagine being the political party or TD who was against it?

The political fallout of that would be so scary, the politicians to whom it is anathema to, will keep up the pretence in my opinion.

That 'not wanting to be seen as an ally of bigots' will be an 'issue' IMO. You'll find it very hard to get political party support as a result.

Yes, I can imagine that. What's your point?

Zaph

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Say a Border Poll succeeds, can you imagine being the political party or TD who was against it?

The political fallout of that would be so scary, the politicians to whom it is anathema to, will keep up the pretence in my opinion.

That 'not wanting to be seen as an ally of bigots' will be an 'issue' IMO. You'll find it very hard to get political party support as a result.

I think if it gets to the point where there's a proper reasoned debate about a poll there'll be enough politicians who will realise that in pure economic terms a UI would be massively damaging. Then there will be no option but to have a proper discussion about it, unless they want to follow the UK government's lead where they lied to the electorate about Brexit. Having seen that mess, I don't think people here will accept being asked to vote on something without having the full facts.