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How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Tokyo

Mod:

Continuation of the How long before Irish reunification? thread.

Please note that all mod warnings, actions and threadbans from the previous thread carry across to here.

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

Threadbanned Users:
blanch152
Randy Archer
Natterjack from Kerry
littlevillage

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downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Colour me surprised, Downcow.....I agree with you.

There's only so much insight to be taken from the opinion of one person, but it hits on exactly what I've asked you (perhaps less eloquently) several times; how many times do NI Unionists have to be screwed before they start questioning exactly what they're loyal to and why.

Perhaps if someone like Wallace Thompson is making great strides towards getting past his fear and concerns about being part of a United Ireland, perhaps the concerns of a self-professed moderate like yourself are overblown too.

Like Wallace Thompson, I'm sure you'll still vote for the Union if a border poll was called, but maybe if it doesn't go your way it would be worth reevaluating your, 'can't guarantee you would remain peaceful' outlook.

Fionn. I read you post in a very positive and was thinking how I would respond honestly. They I came to your jibe about a comment I made months ago, was clumsy, which I have agreed could have been clearer and have clarified. and which many keep repeating on here.
Anyhow that’s your issue and not mine.

As for being screwed over by the U.K.
the question comes from a lack of understanding of what the U.K. is. I am the U.K. so it’s I bit like asking someone in Dublin are they not fed up being screwed over by Ireland

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wallace has a wee ways to go in his 'understanding'.
He bemoans the fact that 'too many nationalist politicians and commentators seem either unable or unwilling to understand the Ulster Protestant mindset. It is often portrayed by them as triumphalist and sectarian whereas it is based on genuinely held and legitimate principles.'

When your experience is of a 'triumphalist and sectarian mindset' again and again as you strive for equality and parity of esteem, it is entirely legitimate to portray it as that.

It 'would help' if Unionism recognised that. But I welcome his leadership here and he seems to be willing to engage in a conversation about a United Ireland, the political representatives of Unionism need to overcome their fear of that, as well. Hiding behind Gregory Campbell style bluster won't make it go away.

I do think he makes interesting points. No doubt a lot of the times unionism has reacted angrily to things has been out of a fear of its own destruction. That was really evident around Belfast in 1985 and it seems to be happening again now to some extent. I haven't been in the North for months due to Covid, I'd wonder if average unionists are very perplexed with the NI protocol, or have they moved on from the kind of stuff that happened after the Anglo Irish agreement. I well remember when Paisley spoke against it in Belfast, us Catholics were shown our place then, we were persona non grata for sure.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Colour me surprised, Downcow.....I agree with you.

There's only so much insight to be taken from the opinion of one person, but it hits on exactly what I've asked you (perhaps less eloquently) several times; how many times do NI Unionists have to be screwed before they start questioning exactly what they're loyal to and why.

Perhaps if someone like Wallace Thompson is making great strides towards getting past his fear and concerns about being part of a United Ireland, perhaps the concerns of a self-professed moderate like yourself are overblown too.

Like Wallace Thompson, I'm sure you'll still vote for the Union if a border poll was called, but maybe if it doesn't go your way it would be worth reevaluating your, 'can't guarantee you would remain peaceful' outlook.

Wallace has a wee ways to go in his 'understanding'.
He bemoans the fact that 'too many nationalist politicians and commentators seem either unable or unwilling to understand the Ulster Protestant mindset. It is often portrayed by them as triumphalist and sectarian whereas it is based on genuinely held and legitimate principles.'

When your experience is of a 'triumphalist and sectarian mindset' again and again as you strive for equality and parity of esteem, it is entirely legitimate to portray it as that.

It 'would help' if Unionism recognised that. But I welcome his leadership here and he seems to be willing to engage in a conversation about a United Ireland, the political representatives of Unionism need to overcome their fear of that, as well. Hiding behind Gregory Campbell style bluster won't make it go away.

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

This is an interesting piece https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/still-reeling-from-boris-johnsons-betrayal-dup-founding-member-says-hes-questioning-the-union-3176182

He says he's worried about his Orange heritage and identity in a UI, realistically it's much more at risk in a future NI state in which Protestants are not a majority.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

This is an interesting piece https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/still-reeling-from-boris-johnsons-betrayal-dup-founding-member-says-hes-questioning-the-union-3176182

Colour me surprised, Downcow.....I agree with you.

There's only so much insight to be taken from the opinion of one person, but it hits on exactly what I've asked you (perhaps less eloquently) several times; how many times do NI Unionists have to be screwed before they start questioning exactly what they're loyal to and why.

Perhaps if someone like Wallace Thompson is making great strides towards getting past his fear and concerns about being part of a United Ireland, perhaps the concerns of a self-professed moderate like yourself are overblown too.

Like Wallace Thompson, I'm sure you'll still vote for the Union if a border poll was called, but maybe if it doesn't go your way it would be worth reevaluating your, 'can't guarantee you would remain peaceful' outlook.

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

Can I assume you mean loyalist terrorists? As opposed to loyalists

I can’t comment on ‘Catholics’ but certainly ‘protestants’ did/do not think as one homogeneous group - there would be a full range of views when a republican terrorist got killed from celebration to dismay

Yes, terrorists. Back in the day there wouldn't have been any sympathy if someone in the UDA got killed around where I was living, these guys were only a few streets away and frequently came over to shoot people who had no involvement at all. But most people did not agree with the IRA campaign.

What I was questioning originally Downcow, do most (not all, but most) Protestants accept that the Plantation of Ulster was terribly wrong, that the treatment of Catholics post partition was also terribly wrong as was Bloody Sunday? No doubt the vast majority of Catholics think that things like the Enniskillen bombing and La Mon were atrocities.

downcow

This is an interesting piece https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/still-reeling-from-boris-johnsons-betrayal-dup-founding-member-says-hes-questioning-the-union-3176182

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah catholic’s all think as one... you should know that downcow my goodness...

Session 2. Read my post in context. I was responding to a poster who was suggesting that Protestants all think the same on an issue.
I don’t think I need to say that I realise all communities are diverse.

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

Can I assume you mean loyalist terrorists? As opposed to loyalists

I can’t comment on ‘Catholics’ but certainly ‘protestants’ did/do not think as one homogeneous group - there would be a full range of views when a republican terrorist got killed from celebration to dismay

Yeah catholic’s all think as one... you should know that downcow my goodness...

FrancieBrady

JimmyVik wrote: »

People get desensitized to this stuff.

Sadly true. There is too much taunting that goes on still around deaths. That's where in a normal society you would expect public representatives to be calling this behaviour out.
Annual 'taunt fests' need to stop, and we need to hear democrats loudly calling them out.

JimmyVik

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

People generally approved when a Loyalist was killed, but not anyone else. Tbf I’d imagine the Protestant side was the same, pleased when IRA men were killed, but not civilians.

I remember when I was at school, on the morning after a bomb people would say, We got 11 yesterday, ha ha.
I had relatives from the North who would be in our house and not even notice the news when it was on and people were killed up the North. They used to call "UTV Live", "UTV Dead".
People get desensitized to this stuff.

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

People generally approved when a Loyalist was killed, but not anyone else. Tbf I’d imagine the Protestant side was the same, pleased when IRA men were killed, but not civilians.

Can I assume you mean loyalist terrorists? As opposed to loyalists

I can’t comment on ‘Catholics’ but certainly ‘protestants’ did/do not think as one homogeneous group - there would be a full range of views when a republican terrorist got killed from celebration to dismay

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I do think that, it was certainly the case when I lived in an IRA heartland in 1972. Liked it when they killed loyalists, not anyone else.

...and would that include disposing the likes of bobby sands?
You see that’s one of the points that the unionist community were shocked, and still are, that ordinary nationalists can revere people who were involved in the murder of innocent members of our community?

Tokyo

Mod: downcow, FrancieBrady - you're both taking pedantry with each other's posts to an extreme. Put each other on ignore in tis thread or risk being removed from it completely.

[Deleted User]

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not sure I understand the last sentence of this post?

People generally approved when a Loyalist was killed, but not anyone else. Tbf I’d imagine the Protestant side was the same, pleased when IRA men were killed, but not civilians.

RobMc59

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I do think that, it was certainly the case when I lived in an IRA heartland in 1972. Liked it when they killed loyalists, not anyone else.

Not sure I understand the last sentence of this post?

[Deleted User]

One of the great grandfathers was from Louth. No idea where he left from though. No idea where the one from Mayo departed either. Great to have someone with his historical perspective in that office.

Rodin

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Not sure he did, he said his great grandfather got on a coffin shop in the Irish Sea, didn’t say it crossed the Irish Sea, just that was where his ancestor boarded. Anyway, we’’d have forgiven him the mistake if he’d made it!

Given his family are from Mayo I doubt they headed to Dublin to get on a boat.

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

Do you feel most nationalists dispise the ira who done these things?

I do think that, it was certainly the case when I lived in an IRA heartland in 1972. Liked it when they killed loyalists, not anyone else.

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Wonder do the unionists mind at all that the Brits were following policies that saw people starving to death during the 19th Century? Or do they realise that the plantation of Ulster was an awful thing? Or the shooting of people on Bloody Sunday was ano outrage? Most nationalists despise most of what the RA did from the 70s onwards, do the unionists mind in the least? They really don’t seem to.

Do you feel most nationalists dispise the ira who done these things?

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Saw Biden today talking about what ‘the Brits’ did to his ancestors, the arc of history is long! Can imagine Dodds and Sammy Wilson fit to burst with rage when they heard the comment!

You mean this guy?
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2803475273234855&id=100007172282430

trashcan

downcow wrote: »

I got an education on this forum. Seems it wasn’t the brits partitioned the island but rather the ROI invited OWC to stay in the UK if they wished. So I don’t know how you blame the brits for that?

The Government of Ireland Act 1920 partitioned the island and pre dated the treaty. There was already a northern parliament up and running before the treaty.

[Deleted User]

Wonder do the unionists mind at all that the Brits were following policies that saw people starving to death during the 19th Century? Or do they realise that the plantation of Ulster was an awful thing? Or the shooting of people on Bloody Sunday was ano outrage? Most nationalists despise most of what the RA did from the 70s onwards, do the unionists mind in the least? They really don’t seem to.

Hurrache

Rodin wrote: »

He did get his geography wrong though. The Irish sea isn't between Ireland and the US

A lot of the famine trails headed to Dublin.

[Deleted User]

Rodin wrote: »

He did get his geography wrong though. The Irish sea isn't between Ireland and the US

Not sure he did, he said his great grandfather got on a coffin shop in the Irish Sea, didn’t say it crossed the Irish Sea, just that was where his ancestor boarded. Anyway, we’’d have forgiven him the mistake if he’d made it!

Rodin

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Saw Biden today talking about what ‘the Brits’ did to his ancestors, the arc of history is long! Can imagine Dodds and Sammy Wilson fit to burst with rage when they heard the comment!

He did get his geography wrong though. The Irish sea isn't between Ireland and the US

[Deleted User]

Saw Biden today talking about what ‘the Brits’ did to his ancestors, the arc of history is long! Can imagine Dodds and Sammy Wilson fit to burst with rage when they heard the comment!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So was there a referendum last time ni was allowed to separate from ‘Ireland’?

Our first constitution was written in 1922.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because PARLIAMENT IS SOVEREIGN in the UK, here the people are sovereign, constitutional change here can only be brought about by referendum.

So was there a referendum last time ni was allowed to separate from ‘Ireland’?

downcow

trashcan wrote: »

Why not, since it was them partitioned the Country ?

I got an education on this forum. Seems it wasn’t the brits partitioned the island but rather the ROI invited OWC to stay in the UK if they wished. So I don’t know how you blame the brits for that?